Solutions for looping/hook camping
-Looping: Vector off each loopable obstacle and create some kind of procedure that detects circular movement while in a chase. Count that time towards filling up a “rage” move for each character to be used once per round. This could be something as simple as a throwing weapon that can be used once per round, or you could get creative and have a thematic move that gives each character a little flavor. For example, the spirit can quickly phase to the other side of the obstacle with no charge up, the nurse can blink with no fatigue, the Trapper stealthily drops some caltrops behind him, etc. I would honestly love to see certain destructible obstacles to surprise the crap out of someone, but it would be a complete environment toolkit rework from a dev POV. People will still protest that the Killer has Bloodlust and it should be enough, but Survivor mains know when it’s reached high tier and this meant to be cumulative to specifically address toxic play style.
Hook camping: Much easier fix. If the Killer gets a slow burn penalty, you should increase the base percent chance of a hook escape at the same rate. 4% is pretty low, but for this to remain fair it would have to stay pretty low or it would break certain perks, probably no higher than 6%.
I realize my ideas probably aren’t perfect, but I’ve thought about them for a while and tried to make them in keeping with the spirit of the game.
Comments
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These aren't perfect ideas, but they are pretty good ones, I also got one idea from a friend where during looping, if the killer were to get pallet stunned, they would gain a stack of bloodlust, which would add some strategy to chases by making killers choose whether to keep chasing or to break the pallet to cut off the loop off but loose the free speed boost.
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Right, either the Bloodlust should get buffed when the game detects toxic looping or something entirely different should be worked in to the gameplay. Your idea would probably be easier to actually implement if I’m being perfectly honest with myself, but you gotta admit some calculated payback would be a tasty reward, kind of like a Memento Mori style move that gives each Killer more personality 😁TheMadDoctor said:These aren't perfect ideas, but they are pretty good ones, I also got one idea from a friend where during looping, if the killer were to get pallet stunned, they would gain a stack of bloodlust, which would add some strategy to chases by making killers choose whether to keep chasing or to break the pallet to cut off the loop off but loose the free speed boost.
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Honestly they need to adjust the killers hitbox to where he doesn't lose any distance when circling objects, that would help a lot. Next, windows are entirely too abusable. An effect like Bamboozle should've been a killer passive to prevent looping. If not that then lower the times through a window to 2 instead of 3 before it's blocked. This loop nonsense can be fixed pretty damn easily if they wanted to.
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What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.Your hook camping "fix" is something I find very confusing, it's obviously utterly pointless, how does giving % chance to escape the hook help you escape someone who camps?
I don't know how you play killer, but if I camp and the person escapes, he will be back on the hook very quickly, and if the person tries to escape it just gives more reason to camp.3 -
I don’t buy that you don’t know what I’m talking about when I refer to toxic looping. The process goes swarm, bait, loop/gen rush on just about every other game it seems. It’s exponentially worse if you realize it’s a SWF or a meme squad. I’m not saying destroy it as a tactic, but if the same player has been looping it shouldn’t just go forever on the same damn obstacle. Put more pressure on those players, give them warning that the Killer is building rage (SLOWLY being the operating word and once again it’s a ONE-OFF) and force them to make a different move. Christ, loop again on the obstacle a few meters away for all I care.Egonic said:What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.Your hook camping "fix" is something I find very confusing, it's obviously utterly pointless, how does giving % chance to escape the hook help you escape someone who camps?
I don't know how you play killer, but if I camp and the person escapes, he will be back on the hook very quickly, and if the person tries to escape it just gives more reason to camp.
As far as the hook camping fix, you would be right if the Killer just stands there breathing over you, head nodding/whacking you. Not a lot you can do about that, they already penalize it. But if they back up, check around the corner or otherwise give you a window you can get away. The times I actually went through with an escape attempt it obviously wasn’t with the Killer standing within striking distance, and for the few times it actually worked guess what the game went on longer for me 🙄 My problem is that 4% base success with no growth potential is pretty hopeless that makes trying it pointless most of the time. I main both sides, so I know the strategy on a well coordinated team is to instigate a chase nearby and move in for the rescue, but I want the hook escape to be the tiniest bit more attractive in case you have no altruistic players on your team.0 -
@Egonic said:
What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.That would be quite reasonable station BUT there is one problem - nobody knows how the game would look like if loops were never there. Surely though we would see totally different habits, while right now every tweak of enough influence to change the current ones is met by big opposition from survivors side. Maybe some styles of distractions would appear, or game were slower 'cause people would be leaving the gens after some time just to be sure, 'cause Killer wasn't appearing for some time meaning he can come soon. Or who knows what else.
Another thing is throwing your argumentation about gratification for low skill back at you, I know that survivors invented this phrase "looping skills" but b**ch please xD
That being said I acknowledge that options of vanishing from Killers sight are too limited which is something that should be taken into account while planning any changes.
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So to clarify what I meant and describe my idea in technical terms, imagine each loopable obstacle with a four running clocks attached to it, one per player. This clock would only activate when toxic looping is detected and accumulate in the Killer rage meter very slowly—I’m talking so slowly that it would likely be near endgame with relentless looping players. It could be something as simple as a secondary ability activation for a throwing weapon chance (which is difficult with an obstacle between you and the Survivor hauling ass, but not impossible) worth one state of damage. Now granted, the Trapper, Huntress, Nurse, and Clown have looping equalizers built in—which, funny enough, results in a lot of butthurt DCs when I run them—so this idea wouldn’t work as a blanket mechanic for every Killer. Thank you guys for getting me thinking about it. How to address it? Make it a perk for the Killers that don’t have a lot of map presence and rely on chasing and downing characters. Michael Myers and Wraith immediately come to mind. Honestly, the only thing I see right now that brings the pain when you’ve been getting trolled by loopers an entire match is NOED, and no one falls for it anymore. I’m trying to bring some imagination to the table instead of constant negativity, thank you for your input.0
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I have seen this suggested by several people and I honestly think the only reason the devs haven’t done it already is due to graphics related clipping issues. Some character models are bigger so you’d end with characters like the Trapper with his arm sticking through the wall and it would just look crappy and it might introduce other crazy ass glitches too.Blueberry said:Honestly they need to adjust the killers hitbox to where he doesn't lose any distance when circling objects, that would help a lot. Next, windows are entirely too abusable. An effect like Bamboozle should've been a killer passive to prevent looping. If not that then lower the times through a window to 2 instead of 3 before it's blocked. This loop nonsense can be fixed pretty damn easily if they wanted to.
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@TerminalEntropy said:
@Egonic said:
What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.That would be quite reasonable station BUT there is one problem - nobody knows how the game would look like if loops were never there. Surely though we would see totally different habits, while right now every tweak of enough influence to change the current ones is met by big opposition from survivors side. Maybe some styles of distractions would appear, or game were slower 'cause people would be leaving the gens after some time just to be sure, 'cause Killer wasn't appearing for some time meaning he can come soon. Or who knows what else.
Another thing is throwing your argumentation about gratification for low skill back at you, I know that survivors invented this phrase "looping skills" but b**ch please xD
That being said I acknowledge that options of vanishing from Killers sight are too limited which is something that should be taken into account while planning any changes.
Me personally don't care much about what this "opposition" says, I only know what I like, and how I prefer my killer and survivor gameplay, which might come as a surprise, but it does not involve M1 simulator, running around the map looking for players that should instantly die the moment I see them, nor does it involve chasing someone around pallets until I kill them.
Do you think the game will be slower because you nerf survivors ability to do anything but gens? And now instead of doing gens you want them to go sit in a bush somewhere doing absolutely nothing, because a killer might show up at some point... If that's how you wanna play, by all means, not for me!
I have no idea how "throwing something right back at me" makes the least sense. What are you throwing back at me? That someone else have said looping was skillful?
Since you are forcing me to guess what your weird comment refer to, I will make the assumption that you are under the impression that I am part of some sort of hive mind where anything anyone has ever said on this forum somehow reflects on me, well in particular survivors, which further leads me to believe that you are trying to make what I said into some sort of "survivor vs killer" thing, which is laughable.
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@thrashed2pieces said:
Blueberry said:Honestly they need to adjust the killers hitbox to where he doesn't lose any distance when circling objects, that would help a lot. Next, windows are entirely too abusable. An effect like Bamboozle should've been a killer passive to prevent looping. If not that then lower the times through a window to 2 instead of 3 before it's blocked. This loop nonsense can be fixed pretty damn easily if they wanted to.
I have seen this suggested by several people and I honestly think the only reason the devs haven’t done it already is due to graphics related clipping issues. Some character models are bigger so you’d end with characters like the Trapper with his arm sticking through the wall and it would just look crappy and it might introduce other crazy ass glitches too.
The survivors hitbox regarding walls can be enlarged to compensate too.
I am not talking about actual hitboxes for hits, only hitboxes for collision1 -
@Egonic I don’t see your response as an “us vs. them” mentality and actually I didn’t interpret @TerminalEntropy response towards you as overly defensive or hostile either, your argument understandable protest to the OP. My issue with the game as it is now is that I believe there is supposed to be a natural progression where any Survivors starting out should be sweating, and it’s only when they level up and get a decent build going that they start having an edge to keep the Killer guessing and frustrated. I’m not saying it should be straight up impossible for them to win and get good BP using straight up tactics, but you have insufferable a-holes out there BP farming, vault/pallet/terrain looping and hitbox rushing back to back to piss the Killer off, and it means they’ve figured out the formula and won’t let anyone else have a win. To me, that screams that something is fundamentally lopsided with the game in specifically the looping area of discussion. Keep in mind, certain Killers suffer more from this problem than others since some have built in deterrents, namely Nurse, Clown, and Huntress. But lower tier Killers like Freddy will have a nightmare of a time trying to pull off a win against Survivors that have it clocked.Egonic said:@TerminalEntropy said:
@Egonic said:
What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.That would be quite reasonable station BUT there is one problem - nobody knows how the game would look like if loops were never there. Surely though we would see totally different habits, while right now every tweak of enough influence to change the current ones is met by big opposition from survivors side. Maybe some styles of distractions would appear, or game were slower 'cause people would be leaving the gens after some time just to be sure, 'cause Killer wasn't appearing for some time meaning he can come soon. Or who knows what else.
Another thing is throwing your argumentation about gratification for low skill back at you, I know that survivors invented this phrase "looping skills" but b**ch please xD
That being said I acknowledge that options of vanishing from Killers sight are too limited which is something that should be taken into account while planning any changes.
Me personally don't care much about what this "opposition" says, I only know what I like, and how I prefer my killer and survivor gameplay, which might come as a surprise, but it does not involve M1 simulator, running around the map looking for players that should instantly die the moment I see them, nor does it involve chasing someone around pallets until I kill them.
Do you think the game will be slower because you nerf survivors ability to do anything but gens? And now instead of doing gens you want them to go sit in a bush somewhere doing absolutely nothing, because a killer might show up at some point... If that's how you wanna play, by all means, not for me!
I have no idea how "throwing something right back at me" makes the least sense. What are you throwing back at me? That someone else have said looping was skillful?
Since you are forcing me to guess what your weird comment refer to, I will make the assumption that you are under the impression that I am part of some sort of hive mind where anything anyone has ever said on this forum somehow reflects on me, well in particular survivors, which further leads me to believe that you are trying to make what I said into some sort of "survivor vs killer" thing, which is laughable.
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Agreed 💯Master said:@thrashed2pieces said:
Blueberry said:Honestly they need to adjust the killers hitbox to where he doesn't lose any distance when circling objects, that would help a lot. Next, windows are entirely too abusable. An effect like Bamboozle should've been a killer passive to prevent looping. If not that then lower the times through a window to 2 instead of 3 before it's blocked. This loop nonsense can be fixed pretty damn easily if they wanted to.
I have seen this suggested by several people and I honestly think the only reason the devs haven’t done it already is due to graphics related clipping issues. Some character models are bigger so you’d end with characters like the Trapper with his arm sticking through the wall and it would just look crappy and it might introduce other crazy ass glitches too.
The survivors hitbox regarding walls can be enlarged to compensate too.
I am not talking about actual hitboxes for hits, only hitboxes for collision
Edit: See my other response where I talk about hit box rushing the Killer, your recommendation fixes this.0 -
Please check out my solution:
We have similar thoughts, but I think mine could work just a little better regarding the looping?
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Thanks to everyone who has provided feedback and kept it civil, I welcome any other ideas/improvements/dissent since I know there’s more out there. Keep commenting to keep the thread alive 🤓0
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Use Borrowed Time and Flash Light ;-)
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@thrashed2pieces said:
Egonic said:@TerminalEntropy said:
@Egonic said: What would you prefer the survivors do instead? Let's say they follow through with your change and completely destroy the act of looping, and since pallets have to be used faster, you can now reach a state where survivors have no protection at all.
I can't draw any other conclusion than you wanting the game made easier, not more fun, not more challenging, but simply reach a state where all you do is walk after survivors that have no protection. I would definitely not want to see such changes, and I strongly believe all it would do is make the game worse for everyone who don't need instant gratification when they play poorly, which I find very backwards.
That would be quite reasonable station BUT there is one problem - nobody knows how the game would look like if loops were never there. Surely though we would see totally different habits, while right now every tweak of enough influence to change the current ones is met by big opposition from survivors side. Maybe some styles of distractions would appear, or game were slower 'cause people would be leaving the gens after some time just to be sure, 'cause Killer wasn't appearing for some time meaning he can come soon. Or who knows what else. Another thing is throwing your argumentation about gratification for low skill back at you, I know that survivors invented this phrase "looping skills" but b**ch please xD
That being said I acknowledge that options of vanishing from Killers sight are too limited which is something that should be taken into account while planning any changes.
Me personally don't care much about what this "opposition" says, I only know what I like, and how I prefer my killer and survivor gameplay, which might come as a surprise, but it does not involve M1 simulator, running around the map looking for players that should instantly die the moment I see them, nor does it involve chasing someone around pallets until I kill them.
Do you think the game will be slower because you nerf survivors ability to do anything but gens? And now instead of doing gens you want them to go sit in a bush somewhere doing absolutely nothing, because a killer might show up at some point... If that's how you wanna play, by all means, not for me!
I have no idea how "throwing something right back at me" makes the least sense. What are you throwing back at me? That someone else have said looping was skillful?
Since you are forcing me to guess what your weird comment refer to, I will make the assumption that you are under the impression that I am part of some sort of hive mind where anything anyone has ever said on this forum somehow reflects on me, well in particular survivors, which further leads me to believe that you are trying to make what I said into some sort of "survivor vs killer" thing, which is laughable.
@Egonic I don’t see your response as an “us vs. them” mentality and actually I didn’t interpret @TerminalEntropy response towards you as overly defensive or hostile either, your argument understandable protest to the OP. My issue with the game as it is now is that I believe there is supposed to be a natural progression where any Survivors starting out should be sweating, and it’s only when they level up and get a decent build going that they start having an edge to keep the Killer guessing and frustrated. I’m not saying it should be straight up impossible for them to win and get good BP using straight up tactics, but you have insufferable a-holes out there BP farming, vault/pallet/terrain looping and hitbox rushing back to back to piss the Killer off, and it means they’ve figured out the formula and won’t let anyone else have a win. To me, that screams that something is fundamentally lopsided with the game in specifically the looping area of discussion. Keep in mind, certain Killers suffer more from this problem than others since some have built in deterrents, namely Nurse, Clown, and Huntress. But lower tier Killers like Freddy will have a nightmare of a time trying to pull off a win against Survivors that have it clocked.
if someone get frustated playing killer after all this patches, i think those someone must improve their skill
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