The Double Standard
Let me start by saying this not a tunneling thread, we have plenty of those already - one with plenty of pages. Disregard the video title.
What I want to address is Spooks' larger point about the disparity between what is acceptable between Survivors in the community and what is acceptable to Killers in the community. For those of you that don't know Spooks, SpooksNJukes is a Dead By Daylight Youtuber known for unapologetically playing and then making videos with all the shrieking complaining and whining the other players get because they were angry over how the match went.
What he does here is really highlight the massive Double Standard in behavior between Survivors and Killers, both in-game and out. Now let me get this out of the way - everyone on any side can be a jerk. We'll all faced terrible games as either side of this game. But for whatever reason we attach this expectation, this notion that the Killer exists to give the Survivors entertainment, and any edge, advantage, or tactic they have that works efficiently is to be frowned upon. On the flip side, Survivor tactics and resources are totally okay. They went after their precious Decisive Strike and Survivors lost their collective minds about how now this means tunneling will be rampant (as if that's an issue to begin with, but that's another thread). Why do Survivors think it is the Killer's job to give them an entertaining game?
I want to highlight a comment Spooks makes at 2:45 :
"If I see you injured and you were just on the hook and I see a healthy survivor, I am most likely going to go for the injured person. That's just what makes sense in my head. It's like if you, as Survivor, had a teammate that was on a gen that was 80% done, right? 80% done, that generator.... and then they got chased off of it. Are you gonna go complete that generator that is at 80% or are you going to go start a brand new generator at 0%? When you know that you can just finish that generator? On the Survivor side all the strategies they have are exactly that - strategies. But everything that the Killer does that they don't like? It's not a strategy. It's "You're trash, you are garbage, you are a piece of [BAD WORD]." All the Killer perks that you don't like are off-limits. But all of your crutch Survivor perks and Exhaustion perks are "just part of the game". It's totally fine."
This highlights the previous point: why is the burden of game entertainment for everyone on the Killer? Why do these rules only apply to Killer? Why does one side get to tell the other side how to play? Point out that 360s are annoying and you get told to git gud and they are easily counterable but tunneling presently has a thread with 3 full pages that was just made 48 hours ago. Make a statement about flashlights and you get told they are just part of the game, but by god we need to do something about these dirty campers.
And this is just highlighting the forum attitudes. It gets much, much worse out in the wild. Spooks has videos showing the mountain of hate speech get gets in the form of Playstation messages. #########. Die. One even threatened him with a gun. Because he beat them in a video game. I have never, not once, not ever, seeing that kind of a reaction sent to a Survivor from a Killer. If it does happen, it is so unbelievably small that I cannot find a data sample to support it. Meanwhile literally every single one of my friends that plays this game, and I do mean every single one, gets DAILY hate in the post-game chat when they play Killer. Without fail. Our Discord server literally has a channel dedicated to posting screenshots of the Survivor salt in post-game. And it gets new additions all the time. Meanwhile I have never once gotten hate from a Killer in post-game. Not once. Not ever. Heck, I've gotten messages like "Wow, whoever that Dwight was GG. He can run a loop."
Why is it the faction that is supposed to be the innocent people breed this sort of behavior? Why is the more courteous side the ones actually playing the serial killer? These are people that will literally make threads crying about hitting on hook (a behavior that literally doesn't hurt your gameplay in the slightest) but will find a way to attack every single thing a killer does?
Why does this disparity exist, and why is the difference SO extreme?
Comments
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Playing Solo que it really feels like survivors get more attention to protect the sense of enjoyment.
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So it's really simple killers are the minority in this game. 1 killer being "toxic" can ruin the game for 4 survivors . One "toxic" survivor ruins the game for 1 killer.
Now let's add in swf. Your going to get a survivor complaining to his buddy how the killer is a toxic pos for tunneling, camping and slugging. These 2 will hype each other up and exaggerating the toxicity.
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I actually just finished watching this video and I also left a comment. He’s my favourite DBD content creator. Gotta support my fellow console player. 👏🏻
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Because the Killer is the moving force of the match. They're the one versus the four. They dictate the flow of the game, because they're the boss to beat. People like a good boss fight. People also like being able to play the game, which is a right the killer is fully able to revoke at basically any time, regardless of how self-sabotaging it is.
And ultimately, the ability for both sides to ruin the experience of the other via dumb and unfun tactics that are simultaneous incredibly lame and incredibly efficient is a design flaw that falls squarely on BHVR's shoulders for making in the first place.
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"They [killers] dictate the flow of the game, because they're the boss to beat"
I dont know about that. You can't pressure 4 people at the same time.
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You don't have to pressure everyone at once to dictate the flow-- everything you do is something they now have to play around. Whether it's downing people, forcing them to come save, slugging, forcing the decision between healing and staying injured, ect.
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I get plenty of abuse for using DS and unbreakable. Soooooo......
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U gotta admit, that's exactly what the entire post is talking about. Survivors doing gens is the natural state. Killers are simply something to play around and they should be played around in fun ways.
And it's not hard to flip what you said and say survivors dictate the flow.
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I say survivors decide the flow of the game because they have the strongest option available to them: Which generators to do and in what order.
Yes you can slug, but that only works if they survivors are close enough that you can chain them. One of the best tactics has always been to play separately. Spread out on generators. A killer cannot lockdown survivors without the survivors making dire mistakes first. Forcing a save , but they have 1 min to decide when to do it. They can do half of a gen before dedicating time to the hooked person as well as having perks that facilitate easier saves. It's not to say that all killers have no input, spirit and nurse can dictate the flow because survivors have very little options. If they are good, you go down. If they want a fast game, they can because pallets/windows don't do much. perks don't do much, you kind of just die.
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You get messages sent to you by Killers on the Playstation Network saying to off yourself for running DS and Unbreakable?
I'm pressing X right now.
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Yes, they should.
Ideally, BHVR would have had some kind of an idea what they're doing to begin with and made their game in such a way where both sides play against eachother in effective, but fun and engaging ways, and dumb things like actual genrushing, crutch perks, tunneling and camping are not only impossible, but completely unnecessary.
Instead.. BHVR. But maybe we're drawn to the pain and the bloodsport of it all, who knows.
It's a difference of perspective, I think. Whether the killer has the higher chance of winning at optimal play or not, they're still the ones who turn the game from "Hold M1 on 5 gens" to "Find the time to hold M1 on gens while trying not to get wiped".
I'd like both sides to have an equal chance at the highest level regardless of who they pick or what they take, but.. BHVR.
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It happens on PC. Very rarely but it happens. I assume it happens on console. Although, you could expedite it by saying good game to the killer first.
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No but I've had ######### you guys, tryhard blah blah just for what perks I'm using. Like hmm I wonder why DS UB are meta? Yeah what a mystery...
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I'd say that both sides have this double standard although one is more accepted than the other. I still think face camping outside of all gens being done is kinda dumb.
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They're meta cuz ppl want to win.
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They're also second chance perks, which are the most commonly run perks.
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I agree. I would say both sides have a double standard but one is more apparent and acceptable.
The double standard I have noticed is I regard to toxicity. I have noticed in game and in the forums that when survivors are toxic they are called out for it and it's taken completely seriously. But when the killer is clearly being toxic its not even worrented a concern and thus they get away with being toxic. Sometimes the survivors are still blamed for toxicity.
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I do agree with him regarding the double standard existing. Survivors are frequently toxic towards killers that don't perform well, pushing any empathetic and/or non-meta players away from playing killer.
I do however think that tunneling shouldn't be a viable strategy in the first place and I fault Behaviour for not having anti-tunnel/camp be a part of the game without needing to bring perks or rely on the killer being afraid of the possibility of said perks. I think relegating tunnel protection to a teammate bringing BT and the tunneled bringing DS is poor design that unnecessarily hurts newer players who don't have those perks yet and it stifles build diversity.
Camping is whatever. It's objectively bad for the killer if the survivors just do generators and last second hook trade. Not fun for the camped person or the killer but it's really only a problem in solo queue where you can't tell your teammates to just do generators, hence why I think Kindred's killer reveal should activate if the killer hangs out near the hook for ~10ish seconds.
Edit: To alleviate how powerful tunneling can be, I'd like to see it changed to where the hook timer resumes where it left off rather than progressing to the next stage if you rehook the survivor in x amount of time of being unhooked. I'd propose maybe a 30 second grace period.
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"They dictate the flow of the game"
nice joke
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I'm fine with either mindset of approaching things in the game. Spooks is openly "Use whatever is in the game. It's there for a reason and it is dumb to get mad over a video game". Others believe that toxic (vague word) behavior should be addressed to help retain the player base.
My issue comes when people don't pick a lane and apply different mindsets to different groups. I.E It's okay when a Survivor does it but not okay a Killer does it.
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I just had a game where 3 survivors escaped, but one died to the EGC after trying to loop me.
Post-game:
Salty Survivor: Doctor toxic. Only [BAD WORD] closes the hatch.
Nevermind that the others escaped or that this person screwed around during the EGC. The Killer is bad for not just rolling over.
Survivors really do just want to play against AI, but they'd just rage at the AI in post-game chat if they get 4K'd.
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Yeah I had one the other day where the survivor messaged me something similar. #########, guy, maybe I want to win too. I think your spot on though with the bot comment. Most survivors forget there is an actual human being on the other side. I've been guilty of being toxic as well, but I feel like I've gotten a better understanding of the issues killers face and try to treat them better.
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Both sides have double standards. That's why I don't listen to complaints/arguments made by people who don't regularly play both sides. Their opinions just aren't worth hearing.
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Respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! word up, killer revolution lets go enough playing fair vs these broken ass survivors
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As a high rank killer main, no its not a strategy, you're just bad at killer.
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Someone wrote a really genius comment on that video saying "It's basically logic vs emotion, you use logic to try and win in the best way you can, people react with emotion because "their" experience wasn't how they wanted it." something along those lines. I'm not going to take credit for it but man it was so true.
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Talk about condescending :/
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So you’re saying survivors have double standards because they think tunnelling/camping is bad?
Do you know the meaning of double standards?
A killer can camp/tunnel a survivor completely out of the game so they literally don’t even get to play the match.
A survivor can’t do this to a killer.
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Re-read the thread please
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dont care, Im not gonna let people try to defend needless toxicity. Deal with playing at the lower ranks if you don't want the headache. There is no reward/trophy/any reason to WANT to play at rank 1 or 2. If you can't play well enough to just stay there normally you shouldn't be there. Maybe the community wouldnt be so toxic if either side didn't need to be dicks to the other to feel good about themselves
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Nice generalisation about the community, not "everyone" are dicks on each side
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That was part of it, and half the thread is talking about tunnelling and camping.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
just the ones who hate when people call tunneling toxic ig :/
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Ranks, ranking, and what rank you or anyone else holds is completely irrelevant to this thread and this conversation.
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It's not necessarily toxic though.
I totally get why its a cheap tactic, and isn't fun for the other side, and I try not to rely on it when I sense I'm going against under-ranked, or competitive but non-toxic survivors, but here are some strategies survivors do all the time which are not fun for me, as Killer:
- bodyblocking the injured person on death hook to the exit gates, giving me a 0K. I get that it's good teamwork, but how is that fun if I've just spent 30 seconds chasing someone, injured them, and then the people who did gens in the meantime double back to deny the last hit (and then probably teabag too)
- tapping a gen in my face to take a tenth of a second to undo the 3 second damage I made to the gen. Great tactic, makes sense sure, but how is that fun for me? Especially fun after they do my Ruin totem 10 seconds into the game. I mean, did you have to tunnel my totem, why not just make a note of where it is and come back to it once a few gens are done?
- body blocking a hook when I just struggled to end a chase quickly and 1-2 gens already popped. Great move to extinguish what little pressure I have, but is this making my game more fun?
- repeatedly returning to the same loop, knowing full well that the particular Killer I am playing is ineffective against that loop
I could go on but already written a few examples so will keep it short.
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I fully understand how these things are frustrating. I am a killer main and they are a pain. But body blocking for a teammate to escape really is incredibly difficult, and if they can do it without trading a person, they kinda earned it. Tapping in my face is usually giving an action interupt, so not really sure what you mean by that one tbh. Body blocking a hook isn't usually super effective? If I think a team is going to be aggressive I look around before I pick up the surv, usually get a free hit, and then they are too afraid to try a body block. I dont know of any killer that can't lock down any loops once the pallet is dead or the window is locked but if its that bad gens prob need pressure. Theres def counterplay, but I understand your frustration with these
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Well, for one thing it can actually be reportable in some cases, to give you an idea of how close to the line it is to being toxic.
Ie if you tunnel someone repeatedly across multiple games because you know their name and hate them for whatever reason, or you tunnel any character of a particular race or because their steam profile says they are from a certain country.
Those are examples where you can actually be reported for tunneling if people can prove it.
Now, remove those things from the equation, you're still dedicating your entire match to griefing someone just not for any particular reason, that is obviously not reportable but it is still a jerk move to make.
Lastly there is when you just tunnel someone because it's the obvious gameplay choice, which will always happen, is completely fair and understandable to almost everyone except for people who don't understand what they did wrong as a group to get into that situation.
It's only a double standard when you refuse to analyze things on a case by case basis.
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Yeah, HALF of it, meaning you didn't read the full post. Therefore, don't write such an unnecessary comment before reading the whole thing.
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Obviously, I’m only addressing part of it so why would I mention the whole thing lol.
And unless you don’t know the meaning of double standards either, then you know what I said is true but you avoided saying anything about that...double standards?
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I agree with this dude - The more I see people cry about tunneling the more I'll purposely go out of my way to do it. I'll make a survivor eat dirt for four minutes if I feel like it.
I also agree about survivors whine killers don't make the game fun for them but I've never seen a survivor make the game more fun for killer. Granted to an extent it's just not possible to give the other side a chance as survivor it's just how the game is designed. All the pressure is on the killer and if survivors don't see that then what ever.
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This guy thinks just like I do. I can tunnel and camp if I feel like it. When killers do it to me I also laugh and stuff, have zero anger about it. There are no rules on how you should win just play and have fun just do your best to win and don't destroy for your team as survivor by just messing around or hook suicide etc.
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I just wanted to mention, this has more views and comments than half of the threads on the front page, but it's on the third one instead.
It seems like someone doesn't want us talking about this, but isn't willing to outright deny discussion.
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ok? play as you want as long as it does not break the rules. If you care that much about the petty opinions of some you should not be playing this game.
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I don't think the forum works like that. I think it just bumps whatever was most posted recently to the top. All it would take is like ten threads to be started or bumped for a thread to hit the next page. I don't think there's any hoodoo voodoo on the part of the site, mods, or BHVR.
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