Let's talk a little about Spirit
As we all know, Spirit has very little counterplay in chase which makes her unfun to face. You can compare the lack of counterplay Spirit has with Nurse, but what makes Nurse much more balanced is the fact it takes a long time to master her. Spirit doesn't really have that much of a learning curve even though she is almost as strong as Nurse, which is honestly not fair.
I do think that people that make the statement that Spirit takes no skill whatsoever are false because she does take skill. I do think that she takes more skill than some weaker killers like Legion and Wraith. It may be easier to get kills with Spirit because she's a much stronger killer than those two but if we're talking actually getting good with killers' powers, then, in my opinion, Legion and Wraith are easier than Spirit. When you really think about it though, Legion and Wraith being easy to use are not that big of a deal because they're pretty weak killers (although I'm not sure what tier Wraith will end up now that he's about to receive a buff but he still won't be top tier). I think it's totally fine to have simple killers like Legion and Wraith as long as that killer isn't so strong. You look at Spirit being a killer that's so strong but is fairly easy to get good with, so that's obviously a huge issue that needs to be looked at. Freddy has that same issue though I don't think Spirit is nearly as easy as him.
The reason Spirit isn't that hard to get good with isn't that it's easy to track survivors you can't see, because I do think there are some situations where it can be hard to track, especially if a survivor has Iron Will and/or Ace without Stridor. The thing that makes Spirit easy is because she doesn't have any major penalties for misusing her ability and because survivors don't really have anything to react to. Also, standing still getting hits that way is something my dog, Pluto, can do. Think about other chase oriented killers:
- Nurse: she holds her hand out giving you a queue that she's about to blink; she has a couple of seconds of fatigue for misusing her blink with a fairly short power gauge.
- Blight: you can clearly see him running towards you and does a roar when he begins a lethal rush; he has to inject himself for a few seconds for misusing his ability along with a long power gauge depending on how many lethal rushes were used.
- Billy: you can hear his chainsaw and he clearly holds it out; he's stunned for a little bit for bumping into a wall and has a little cooldown for missing along with that stupid overheat mechanic that made no sense why it was added in.
- Oni: he makes a global noise when he begins blood fury and starts to demon dash; he's stunned for a few seconds for missing an attack on top of having to go back to being an M1 killer if his power runs out having to collect enough blood orbs to get his power back.
There are some other killers I didn't mention but you get the picture. Pretty much all I'm saying is Spirit needs to give cues to survivors on what she's doing and also having some kind of way to get punished for miss-phasing. Not necessarily a nerf because just nerfing her with directional audio and post-phase fatigue without anything to compensate for that could make her unbearable to play if it was implemented in a careless way. There needs to be something done though.
Y'all probably know me from many other threads on these forums, and it's very obvious that my favorite killer is Spirit. I really want her to be a balanced killer with a very high skill cap. She just isn't in her current form though, and it's about time the devs listen to the community after over 2 years of Spirit complaints. Whenever I go in with my Meghead ego playing survivor, I'd 100% rather play against Nurse than Spirit. It honestly hurts me having to say this being someone that loves Spirit, but trust me, I'm trying just as hard as most of y'all are in getting her the balance change she needs. Always seeing "nerf Spirit" threads can be tiresome but let's keep them up if it means the devs will one day decide it's time to change her. I know this is BHVR we're talking about so it's hard to know if they will actually listen.
Comments
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Bruh, that horse is dead seriously leave it alone.
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Huh?
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I appreciate all of the thoughtfulness behind this post. I feel you on many points as someone who also adores Spirit and loves to play as her. I am by no means good at her or killer in general. It's just not my forte unfortunately unless I play Hag (I do really well as her / that kind of play style moreso).
I agree that it does take a certain level of skill to learn how to track properly and I've never been one to say Spirit is brain dead easy no skill etc.
Personally if they ever "nerf" her it should be tweaking the numbers of certain add ons because a few of hers don't make any sense and need to be toned down just a smidge. Again, nothing game breaking I just think it's silly for an S rank killer to have insane add ons.
Aside from all that I would love it if there was a definite way of knowing WHEN she starts phasing. For now the only real way to know is if you have Spine Chill equipped and it stops lighting up (Her husk doesn't count as looking at you).
I know flashlights can make the husk disappear if it's left behind but not everyone wants to bring flashlights nor should that be a "spirit counter" lol
Anyways, I'm not sure why everyone gets all up in arms though when very minor changes like these are pitched forward. She's an insanely powerful killer and I'm pretty sure that changes like these wouldn't even drop her down from S tier they'd just make sense ffs.
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I've seen a few talks about how to rework her in ways that aren't drastic or nerf her. The most common, of course, is to give indication that she's phasewalking. People have said before that she should be able to move grass or other small environmental details while using her power. Sure, it means places without grass like Hawkins or the Game will make her hard to detect again, but that's RNG for you. My suggestion on top of this is that she has her red stain and/or terror radius removed from her husk as she uses her ability. That way a Survivor can tell she's phasewalking but not know where she is. There's going to be a lot of posts about how Spirit should be reworked (both with informed and uninformed opinions) until BHVR decides to do something.
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Spirit is fine.
Just utilize stealth tactics to make her waste time looking for you. She's exceptionally good at chases, but is very bad at finding survivors especially if they are trying to hide from her.
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Oh yeah, totally forgot about her add ons. MDR+Amulet combo specifically is way too strong for a killer that's already unfair as it is.
I would also like it if survivors saw grass move. I don't think it necessarily matters if there are maps that don't have grass because both sides won't be able to see grass move so it would still be balanced if that was implemented.
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I think Spirit is fine as she is. Her power has counterplays, if you understand how it works.
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Stealth is seen as the weakest way to evade any killer. It wastes time and if you're found, you're just dead. Besides, if it becomes a norm for survivors to always stealth against Spirit even ones that know how to loop and use tiles, Spirits will just adjust and equip tracking perks more than slowdown perks.
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I do think she does have counterplay, but the counterplay is trying to throw her off even though you don't have a clue where she might be. Good Spirits will almost always react to what survivors are doing especially if their injured without Iron Will and/or with Stridor.
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This is a really well written post firstly.
I think it is misinformed to say spirit is plain easy. It is a skill to be accurate with spirit phasing.
I've seen a few of your posts and you're a small minority of killer player that understands spirits issues even though you main her.
My thoughts are how do you further change spirit to remain the same playstyle and be fun whilst also making counterplay for survivor?
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The issue with stealth vs Spirit is that a good Spirit will leave you and go after someone else as soon as they realize you're playing that way.
Also sometimes stealth won't even work if it's Stridor Spirit / they pay close attention to grass / footstep audio cues.
And again, stealth isn't really buying the team as much time as an actual, dedicated chase would and that's one of the reasons Spirit is so problematic is because in a chase there just isn't much counter play especially once you're injured.
Would giving Spirit a more obvious cue that she is beginning to phase walk really be such a big nerf that she would plummet? I personally don't think so
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I think the problems on vs Spirit is if u're injured, it means u're dead. But its hard to balance her vs injured survivor.
If injured survivor doesnt run, she can hear ur moan, but if u run, she can see scratch mark.
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Yes, but that doesn't make her broken or invincible. Therefore I don't see the need for a nerf or a change.
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Okay give me the secret formula and I'll carefully explain why that's not counterplay
I've played hours upon hours of spirit. I get what is a decent guess as survivor. That is really stretching what counterplay means. It's just a guess
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Aye thanks man.
Yeah, what I was trying to say was that Spirit isn't brain dead easy, it's just she's too easy in comparison for how strong she is.
I try to play both sides so I can have a good understanding of the issues both sides have to deal with. It's so sad that there are people that don't acknowledge the issues survivors deal with.
What would I change about Spirit? I think a good change to Spirit would be to bring back that breathing bug along with a short post phase fatigue. To compensate, her lunge should be buffed and her cooldown should be a little bit shorter (doesn't have to be too much). This could bring her down to solid A tier but truth be told, I kind of don't want Spirit do be S tier anymore because I don't wanna seem like a sweat lord for playing a killer I love.
Pretty much this ^^^
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Yeah but I feel like that wouldn't be an issue if the survivor can hear where Spirit is. I do see what you mean though.
It's not that she's broken. She's just unfun and miserable to play against because the survivors have nothing to react to while she has all the information she needs especially if they're injured.
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Not exactly. You cannot guess against the Spirit, you have to read her. That is why it is important to understand how her power works. And play as her, if possible.
Most Spirits, and I quote a fellow forum member when I say this, will go for the "right play", and try to cut survivors off or predict their next move. You can be unpredictable on chases, stealth around the map, always heal. You are not helpless when playing against her.
Hey, she is not unfun to play against. At least I don't think so :) Remember my "fun" tier list? She is A Tier for me.
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Spirit's my second most played killer atm and I agree with everything said here. She needs changes.
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I mean I guess that's true. Fun is subjective and I shouldn't be saying she's unfun to verse like it's a fact for everyone. You see what I mean though right?
I'm glad another Spirit player agrees
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How can I read something that doesn't give me any feedback? Lol Is just pure guessing
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I do think that people that make the statement that Spirit takes no skill whatsoever are false because she does take skill. I do think that she takes more skill than some weaker killers like Legion and Wraith.
I'm on this boat but it's not that she doesn't require any skill at all - It's that Spirit doesn't need skill unique to her. What makes her strong can be learned on any other killer. The ability to track based on sound whether it be tracking footsteps, injuries or grass move. This in combination with her power is why she's so hated because she's not fun to deal with. Nothing about her power is telegraphed and that's what should change - The actual stats could be fine no issue. People say her glass shards light up when she is using her power but you have to be so stupidly close to see that to the point where I'm pretty much convinced that's a long lasting bug BHVR hasn't fixed and just won't admit it's a bug.
What makes Nurse strong for example can only be learned on Nurse, same with Huntress, same with Hag. Spirit's whole thing is learned by playing other killers and that's primarily it. You pretty much nailed this in your OP. Spirit's power isn't telegraphed so a lot of the time a survivor has to guess. The only counter at the moment is just make distance which again an above average Spirit won't have issues catching up to you.
Do I have a bias against Spirit? Yes - But only because I believe strong killers should have proper counterplay and not be a guessing game because that isn't fun. I'm a Nurse main myself so I get having the spotlight on you as killer having survivors wanting you nerfed isn't fun. At the same time I don't expect much for Spirit just proper information being conveyed.
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Yes, I do. I am sorry if I overreacted. It is just... I am tired of seeing complaints everywhere, and the fact that my main is getting nerfed just make things worse. I know you have the best intentions, and that what you are doing is important. I am really sorry.
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I main spirit and I really like where she's at right now. I don't think she needs a nerf because I still get survivors who absolutely demolish me with some regularity. I win some, lose some. Still can't handle bully squads at all.
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Yeah I see what you mean. I feel like if they add more unique mind games to Spirit by giving her directional audio, then she would have a unique skillset to learn but as it is right now, her skill can be transferred from other killers. It's kind of like Deathslinger except his skill can be transferred from shooting games. I don't play shooting games myself and never have played Slinger, so I bet I would be trash as him.
Oh no, you don't have to apologize. I like having civil discussions with other people that differ in opinions and you didn't come across as overreacting to me. I also understand your concern with your main. I'm assuming it's Freddy because I think I have seen you on other threads say he's your main and he's your pfp. I'm hoping the devs give him a good change without killing him. Trust me, I'll be screaming with joy when I figure out Spirit is getting changed but at the same time, I don't want her gutted.
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Yeah I was a bit iffy bringing up Deathslinger as a high tier killer but he does require skill but his skill is transferable from other games pretty much and I'm pretty sure that's where the hate for him comes from. Granted at least with Deathslinger his power is telegraphed through his actions.
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I don't want a nerf, I just want proper counterplay with more rewards on the survivor end when they do counter Spirit.
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I don't know I feel like having her move the grass under her and visually be able to see where she's going would make it a one sided affair. The survivors will know exactly where she is, but she won't know where they are. It would be very easy to just follow the footsteps and make distance while she's just making her most educated guess.
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Spirit is fine imo. I think she's hated because
1. People don't play her to try and understand her
2. Survivors just don't wanna use their got damn brain, and would rather be spoon fed counterplay information like the rest of the killer roaster.
I don't have a problem with Spirit simply because ik and understand how she thinks. I find Spirit fun to go against because she a complete guessing game and I have to use expirence to try and outplay her.
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I do agree that a lot of killers are just basic M1 and don’t have much to help them win chases besides waited for survivors to make a mistake and that’s assuming they don’t have Dead Hard to completely undo their mistake without counterplay. Pig, Legion, and Wraith are great examples of that.
I do want Spirit to have some sort of indication on what she’s doing. It doesn’t have to be much just something where survivors don’t feel helpless. I still want her to be an incredibly strong chase killer with solid counterplay. Being a Spirit main, I know how she thinks when I play survivor as well but imo, players shouldn’t be forced to main a killer to learn how to counter them.
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Honestly I've given up on trying to come up with balance ideas. I just hope that, whatever they do, they don't get rid of our only phasewalker.
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If they got rid of her, I’d be a sad boy 😢
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Despite being in the top 3 killers alongside Nurse, Spirit is nowhere near as strong as Nurse. The gap between low tier and top tier killers is the same wideness of gap between Spirit and Nurse. Again, I don't care if it takes longer or "more effort" to get good with Nurse as opposed to Spirit. That doesn't negate that Nurse is OP because of her gameplay design alone: teleporting through obstacles that all other killers have to go around. Spirit has to lose an entire sense, sight, just to get to the survivors, while relying on another sense, sound, which is unreliable in this game especially due to broken as hell Iron Will. And that's an ability that simply makes you walk fast. Nurse's movement is pretty much instant from one place to another, and she doesn't get blinded to be able to do it. Spirit has so many counters it's unbelievable. Nurse has none at all besides hoping the killer misblinks.
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That is a very good point. I agree a little that Nurse is OP and blinking through ######### is broken as hell. I just feel like it's not that big of a deal because so many Nurse players just aren't good. That's just me though, agree to disagree.
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Controversial takes incoming. Please don't read if you're a Survivor main who doesn't want his night ruined or can't handle half serious bait posted out of boredom (my points are actually valid, but it's not written "honestly").
"As we all know, Spirit has very little counterplay in chase which makes her unfun to face."
I don't think this matters all that much, at least not as much as people say it does. They always go on and on about this point as if it's iron clad, but this argument never considers the Killer's perspective at all. Both sides should have fun options, and it's no fun at all for the Survivor's to have all the agency in a chase. Why is it okay for Survivors to demand fun, but a Killer isn't allowed to ask for the same? Spirit is our answer to the countless times that Survivors replied with "Just learn to deal with it" and that's a good thing.
"You can compare the lack of counterplay Spirit has with Nurse, but what makes Nurse much more balanced is the fact it takes a long time to master her."
You can't compare them. Again this is an incredibly biased statement and it blows my mind to hear Survivors of all people somehow justifying their pleas for nerfs with it. How "easy" a Killer is to use doesn't really affect the Survivor perspective, not in a way that actually has an impact in the match itself. If as people claim, they're performing exactly as well as each other and Nurse is fine in her current state, then by your own admission Spirit is a balanced Killer too.
Level of skill required isn't a factor in whether a Killer is balanced or not, that's just you being mad at something outside of the match. Balance is determined by how they actually influence the match itself, and I don't see anyone complaining about Spirit's map presence she gets from Phasewalk speeds.
"Spirit doesn't really have that much of a learning curve even though she is almost as strong as Nurse, which is honestly not fair."
Why is it unfair specifically though? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that holding down the power button as Bubba instantly downs a Survivor and that you simply don't walk into walls while using it to reap massive rewards, but because Spirit is exceptional in 1v1 chases none of the skill or game knowledge required to use her Power counts for diddily squat? It's just reductive to say it's a "free hit" and even people who haven't played her surely must know that.
To summarise, you only perceive Spirit as unfair because you have outside knowledge. Say for example if someone who had no knowledge of each Killer watched a few games of Nurse and Spirit without context, they'd both seem to be the same level to someone who isn't aware of how the Powers work. Either both Killers are OP or both are fine, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Final, controversial, salt inducing, hate festering and world view shattering take: Spirit
is just Nurse for Console players.1 -
You should be able to tell if she is phasing, that would instantly make her better.
Right now it’s like you are at a pallet, spirit just stands there. You take a 50-50 which side she appears on but then oh she’s actually just standing there you go down. It’s one of the dumbest things in DBD, not that having to make 50-50 guesses at pallets isn’t dumb either.
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That's vague. I asked for SPECIFICS.
I have played and versed countless spirits. I'm very aware on how to play against her.
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That's what you do IN CHASE.
What I'm suggesting is to AVOID chases in the first place. As long as possible. Make her waste time looking for you, then return to gen and repeat.
If you avoid direct confrontations as much as you can, you will have significantly less troubles escaping her.
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You could say that about literally any killer in the game.
“Just never be in chase” is almost admitting she is broken.
And it’s not feasible. Given that you:
1) Can spawn almost in line of sight of the killer on some maps
2) The killer can use very strong tracking perks
3) The Spirit can phase onto your generator and appear before you can realistically react, especially with speed addons
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Spirit is literally blind half of the match.
She is 110 killer who has NO time or opportunity to look for hiding survivors like walking killers have and who is unable to spot survivors while traversing around the map due to how her power works.
She flies to gen, sees nobody there, checks nearby tree at worst and leaves the moment she gets her power because 3 other survivors are not pressured.
You literally don't sprint and don't run in the open and she will find you only by accident or if you get sloppy.
>1) Can spawn almost in line of sight of the killer on some maps
That's extremely rare occasion and even so you can manage to hide from killer while they get to you.
>2) The killer can use very strong tracking perks
Not a single tracking perk killers have is able to precisely locate survivors OR cannot be countered with simple things.
I assume you mean perks like BBQ (2 NO PERK counters) or Whispers (which are pretty useless in finding the exact location of hiding survivor) but they don't break stealth gameplay, especially if you run perks that help you avoid being noticed.
>3) The Spirit can phase onto your generator and appear before you can realistically react, especially with speed addons
Whoosh sound is a joke apparently. You can also use your eyes to see spirit from far, they usually don't bother with hiding.
Not even mentioning Spine Chill that should be your must perk if you're having so much trouble against Spirit.
Spirit isn't an old legion that downs you in 20 seconds regardless what you do. She is beatable, you just have to LEARN different ways to do so. If you refuse, the problem isn't spirit. It's like playing rock-paper-scissors and complaining that you can't win with rock against paper.
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I have played way too much as and against the spirit to agree with any of that.
Whispers is a ridiculously strong tracking perk, especially on someone with really good map knowledge. I can usually pinpoint locations with it if the survivor is by themselves.
There is also discordance, surveillance, infectious, tinkerer, monitor and abuse, etc. All of which have counter play but and by the time you realize they have it the killer has probably already found you.
Don’t tell me to equip a perk to counter a killer, that’s a horrible argument.
“Whoosh sound is a joke” ignores the speed she is moving at, especially with addons. She’s moving at 200% movespeed with just a green. Which is 8 meters a second and you get a 24meter “woosh” range. So you have ~2 seconds to hide and if she stops short? There’s no way you are finding a spot to hide that quickly.
”Learn” different ways to beat a killer that can hit you anytime you run, anytime you stay at a pallet, and gets a free down anytime you are injured. Ok. I have good headphones and I get almost perfect hits on fully healthy survivors if they are running.
All of the arguments you have made point towards the fact that you are a newer player, and that’s fine.
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How does Spirit not have any penalties for missing? If she comes out of phases and misses you then get enough distance to make it to a pallet or window and she gets a fat cooldown. It’s plenty punishing and this is how Spirits get run for so long because while her power is on cooldown she’s an m1 110% killer.
I don’t care if Nurse is harder to master. None of that matters when you go against one. Nurse is the only killer in the game that is complete bs and she’s the one that needs a total rework because SHE is the one with no actual counterplay. Spirit is a kitten in comparison.
I’ll take Stridor Spirit over a Nurse that sligs at 5 gens anyday.
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Leave Spirit alone. SWF squads are bad enough as it is, she's not impossible to outplay, just leave the one killer that can bully a SWF squad back alone.
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I wish they would just balance her for the good of everyone. Survivors could enjoy chases more and spirit mains could enjoy not getting verbally abused after every match
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Translation: we won't learn to counter mind-games or play our own, so please nerf the killer based almost entirely around mind-games to let us know she's mind-gaming us so we retain the edge in the chase
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Nurse can already do that except she requires you to be as good as the SWF in question
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I gave my suggestion long ago, but people just didn't understand what I asked for...
basically, give the spirit something akin to pigs roar.
weather you're faking the sprint or not, when you press the button the pig roars.
if we give something like this to the spirit, she won't be able to just stand still. she will have to commit to filling the bar a bit to either go into her phase or let go and stand still. either way, the survivor knows they need to make a decision between believing she phased and stealth, or calling her bluff.
I believe this would allow spirit to keep her gameplay of surprising survivors, while giving survivors enough information to make counterplays at the correct time
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Look at all the strong chase based killers
Nurse: cooldown and fatigue
slinger: Cooldown slow and reload
Huntress: Cool down and reload that will lose you chase
Billy: Cooldown and overheat
Then spirit has a small Cooldown as long as you use her phase properly
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You could say the same for any killer
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I'm talking about my experience as red rank survivor. If hiding is too difficult for you and you're finding excuses not to do so, that's on you.
Just stop running the moment you see spirit, get down in 30 seconds and then go crying on forums how ridiculous is spirit. You're acting like an old man who learnt something in one certain way and refuses to do it in any other way because he's too old to learn something new.
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She is still too strong for the skill required to play her. This is why many people don’t find nurse a problem
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