Tier list based on power design

I think I agree with almost all of this but I would put Hag in the overhaul category with Twins and Nurse, because she has the exact same design problems that The Twins have.

I'm kiiiinda hesitant on Blight being a perfectly designed killer. Maybe once they patch j-flicking. As fun as it is to do, it is complete BS if you know where you can abuse it, and removes the one main counterplay that Blight has which is tight corners. Plus he's almost non-functional on console so that's a massive flaw in its own right lmao.

No, I didnt mean balancing. I mean creative in power design.

Nurse & Spirit are op (and may not balance), but they're the most creative power design.

You mean bad players like OhTofu who quit playing him? I couldn't care less if you play at rank 1 or not, it means nothing and doesn't reinforce your argument.

Also, Billy's animations have been bugged for quite a long time and the devs still haven't fixed them, so that adds up to him being much less fun to play.

I love the twins, when I do take the time to play, it's one of the weird killers like twins that brings me back.. and it's still fun as hell to yeet a baby at survivors lol

The ones I really think could use looking at:

Deathslinger - With his ability to quickscope, as a survivor your only real counterplay is to try and break line of sight and/or hope he misses. On some maps this is easier than others, but overall results in a feeling (against decent deathslingers) that your input as survivor doesn't really matter. You can guess when he'll shoot and try and juke, but it is just a guess and good deathslingers will just zone you while you zig zag.

Nurse - A good nurse will just win the game, because she ignores all means of defence. With tracking perks like infectious fright, nurse's calling, etc. you can't hide forever. If you're on an indoor map you might be able to delay your death a little, but that's it. The counter-argument that it takes a lot of practice to reach that level of play and most nurses aren't that good is true, but feels like a poor way to balance the game.

Pyramid Head - even with the nerf, he can still m1/power you at vaults, leaving few options as survivor. Just hold w and try and break line of sight and dodge the power. Not as oppressive as the others here, but still pretty frustrating.

Spirit - Even if it was made apparent when she was phasing, she'd still crap on you in a chase. As a survivor, you can run iron will all the time and hope she doesn't have stridor (spoiler, she does), other than that you can hold w and hope. It's again, very unfulfilling to go against.

The Twins - every other killer can camp hooks, but gives up all map pressure to do so. Twins doesn't. They can camp the hook AND chase people off gens, get downs, etc. This feels really frustrating to go against. Even if she misses with the baby pounce and you kick it, she gets it back in about 5 seconds. Then it's back chasing you at, what, 150% movement speed? While she goes back to camping.

Then there's other killers that are just annoying to go against: trapper (lol chase ends at random), hag (camp to victory), freddy (takes forever, maximum rewards for minimum effort), legion (hold m1 more), plague (solo queue meg insta-cleansing on getting infected), ghostface (roll a dice to see if you'll actually reveal him or he'll just expose you), clown (just really tedious, drop pallets early and run).

The well-designed killers, with decent powers that have a balance of skill/reward/counter-play: demo, billy, huntress (barring the dedicated server throwing trucks), blight, oni, leatherface, wraith, myers (barring some of the dumbest addons in the game). I'll even go so far as to say the doctor is alright, even though I know he annoyes a lot people.

And then there's pig, who is just sort of there.

Why is slugging an invalid playstyle? Just because a killer is good at slugging doesn't mean the killer isn't good.

The literal design of the killer IS TO slug. They created them in a way that Charlotte cannot quickly pick up the downs that Victor gets. They intended for Twins to slug. Be as efficient with Victor as possible, then clean up with Charlotte. Slugging is a big part of this.

I really don't understand the argument. They're a super good killer that excels at pressuring the map.

Twins have counters to prevent it, but nobody ever uses them because people have no idea how they work.

Both sides have counterplay and counterplay to the counterplay, you'll just never see that because most games are just 4man slugs at 3 gens against potatoes.

I don't go by the pip system for what's considered a win or a good game, so if that's where we're going to disagree, then that's all there is to the argument, really.

An entire game of tug-of-war where they're constantly fighting against my slugging and getting gens done while doing so, and I'm fighting against their pressure by keeping up the injures and downs with Victor, eventually either ending up in a 4man slug or all 5 gens done is a game that I consider to be very interesting, and they only happen when people actually understand how to play against Twins.

Winning (at least by my definition) a game like that is satisfying. If it ends in a 4man slug (where I definitely got hooks, didn't just 1-hook everyone), so be it. That was a full game where both sides played well and one came out on top. Just because I didn't get 8-12 hooks doesn't mean I didn't win.

That's a true Twins game, but as I said, you only get them here and there because of how many people lack knowledge of counterplay against Twins.

And as I do play survivor, this is fun to play against, but my teammates have to understand to kick Victor, stay on top of heals, group up when necessary, always keep Victor on the back, pre-drop pallets, hop in lockers when injured/far away from Charlotte, etc. None of that is difficult. The unfunness of Twins, from survivor experience, is the fault of the survivor teammates.

I dont really get what you mean with "power design". I assume you mean how fair they are?

In that case I disagree with the most. I dont get why Plague, Wraith and Clown are at the decent spot, they all got changes for a reason in the past. And future probably. Also why is nurse and spirit so low? They have well designed powers regardless of the streangh.

You can get the snowball going again quickly with Oni too. Not to mention, Oni's power is an insta down. Which is why you see a lot of games where an Oni player wins the match with four or five generators still up.

Can we just agree that both killers encourage slugging?

Depends on what you mean by decent. I don't think an Oni player can win against good survivors without slugging.

Also, even if Oni is less reliant on slugging than the Twins, his power still greatly rewards slugging. Which means you're going to see a lot of slugging with both killers.

This is a joke right?