No Mither Sucks

Oh thank god I thought I was the only one who kept getting bummed by the forum lol.

To add more spice to the match, it's more for challenging yourself.

I even run it sometimes because I love the challenge and some killers even think you're an easy target and forgetting about the rest 😬

I used to run no mother, spine chill, resilience and this is not happening, due to the old hex ruin it was tedious to do gets, so I just started running that combination so I can do gens while others look for totem

😂 No he said recover, not heal yourself at any time.

If you are downed you can pick yourself up infinite amount of times when the killer leaves you on the ground.

It's a build in unbreakable

I always expected more (this perk does this while injured) type of perks. I had imagined No Mither Builds would one day be a viable thing. Certainly could add a lil more spice to the game.

Yeah my bad, I didn't read it properly.

But nah you can't, you start broken and remain broken.

You coick yourself up infinite amount of times as long as the killer don't pick you up.

Your grunts of pain are reduced by 50% (I believe).

And you don't leave blood.

But nah you can't heal yourself by self care or any other healing method.

If that was possible, than I would allready healed myself multiple times when facing oni.

Oni loves no mither players as you're a source of infinite blood orbs 😅

Then we haven't met yet 😅😜

Some perks are intentionally designed to be bad and that gives a frame of reference for players to identify when other perks are good. There is no design space to make every single one competitive, viable, or even good. If devs buff a bad perk into awesomeness, a good perk will become more undesirable or unfit for the meta.

No Mither is bad but is also THE bad boy.

The sin of bad perks is being forgettable. Very few in the community can tell without stutter the precise benefits of Babysitter, Premonition, or Dead Man's Switch but everyone knows what No Mither does. It transcended into a meme and is truly unforgettable.

If you're interested in discussing intentionally bad design, take a look at this video:

It's a pretty unreliable perk overall.

1.) You become a tunnel magnet. If you're really good at running the killer, then this may not be a problem. However, get the wrong map/RNG set up (too many dead zones) and it's probably not going to work out well for you.

2.) While it can synergize somewhat well with other perks, the second effect of 50% lowering pained noises is 'meh'. 50% probably isn't going to help all that much unless the killer has a pretty bad sound setup or is inexperienced and almost makes Iron Will mandatory. Sure, you're completely silent against Stridor, but that's two perk slots with a huge disadvantage to seriously hard counter 1 Killer perk that may or may not be in the game. If you get in a game with Stridor Spirit, then yes, it's amazing. But the rest of the time - eh for me.

3.) If the Killer doesn't slug you long enough, then you will never get the benefit of No Mither's main bonus. Tenacity can help and maybe flip flop to avoid the hook if they do leave you for at least a bit. Resilience can help you slam out gens and that that other one that adds progress on great skill checks, but running those 2 with NM leaves you one other perk slot to help with an otherwise detrimental 'perk'.

4.) If you're not a good runner and/or don't have a solid game plan, the rest of your team will not be happy with you at the end of the game.

I've watched a lot of streamers run No Mither combos and the one thing that seems to be VERY common is that a lot of it is just flat out luck based on how well you'll do with it, aside from possibly, chases. But again, you get a bad map and/or the killer decides to go for the easy tunnel out, the game is pretty much over.

You should always recover before you crawl. Does it really make you quiet on the ground though? I thought being a silent slug is supposed to be a bug, and not intended.

I know this is a thread from yesteryear, but Ii'm going to revive it because I'd love some clarity.

I, for one, have absolutely no idea what anyone here is saying. Not only are many people flat out coming out and talking about No Mither as some sort of powerful perk, but the rest are often garnering concessions to say that it is only occasionally a powerful pick.

I really don't understand where any of this is coming from, it's almost as if everyone here is playing a completely different game than the one I've been avidly devoting my time to for the past 3 years.

Like, every single point I see people bring up to discuss No Mither as some sort of good pick is completely beside every fundamental reality of the game. must be missing something.

There have been 12 points brought up in this thread alone, and I honestly do not understand the concepts behind any of them because they are contrary to everything I've come to know from my 1,500+ hours of experience and thousands of hours watching content creators over the years.

• "it's a good perk for people who think the game is too easy" this is a very misguided debate, because it takes for granted that there are neither different challenges one could employ on one's self, nor a more eloquent - and perhaps less punitive - means of which to challenge a player. One could just as easily lower repair and vault speeds by 20% to make the game 'more challenging' - but that does not mean that it, by merit, is a good concept or should exist. Just because something makes the game more difficult does not mean that it has merit. One could just as easily bring other garbage perks or no perks to find a challenge in the game. Some have suggested not spawning injured, but becoming broken by the first instance of damage. This could be rendered redundant by the interjection of choice. A player could simply abstain fro healing to challenge themselves. Making the game more challenging does not make something, by merit, good,

• "Protection Hits! You can waste the killer's time by diving in front of teammates!" But it is not wasted time. You just hard traded. Any survivor can do this without No Mither. As keenly observed, killers cannot slug to continue the chase and must hook you - true. However, you exchanged hooks, which is invariably the same as preforming such an action without the perk if not worse still. if healthy you could potentially take two protection hits to the same end. In addition, this is such a convoluted and highly situational feat that could - ideally - only ever find its own employment twice in a match. In a trial where the killer's objective is to hook survivors as many times as possible, forcing the killer to hook you is hardly a consolidation. Hooks are extremely detrimental to the survivor team - they can cut the repair efficiency of the team by more than half and can allow the killer to slow the momentum of the survivors if not seize it absolutely. Giving the killer an easy hook that they cannot turn down is like cackling that you gave your worst enemy exactly what they wanted. When defenders use this point, they often choose to speak as though they can take a hook - and another survivor cannot. However, using such a trash perk that is displayed to the killer is a very easy way to get yourself tunneled out of the game instead. Any perk that's greatest use is "Hah! Now you have to kill me!" in a game where your opponent's job is to kill you - you're not doing much for the team. Even in this extremely fringe and ideal situation, such an accomplishment is nothing you cannot accomplish better without No Mither equipped.

• "You can pick yourself up off the ground! Unlimited Unbreakable!" Slow down there, scout. No killer is going to leave you on the ground unless they are letting you go free out of pity. They can see that you're broken and they know what that means. This aspect of the perk is not a buff, it is a mutual destruction signal. The 'revive self' part of the perk means that the killer is NEVER going to leave you on the ground, but will ALWAYS pick you up as soon as possible. Unless the killer intends to let you go, or frankly doesn't care about you and is fine with you taking a 30 second timeout, they're going to pick you up and walk you to a hook. And all of those hilarious trolls that think they're doing the Lord's work against a 4 slug, all the killer has to do is save one of you for last and stand on top of you - even if they hit you over and over, it takes time to recover. You're not doing yourself any favors. Picking yourself up once with Unbreakable is far, far, far more powerful than No Mither. Soul Guard can accomplish the same feat in many circumstances without forcing the killer to pick you up. You will basically never see any value out of the perk as a slug build - but if you do, it's because the Killer is more than likely taking pity on you or giving you a chance because of the horrendous nature of the perk.

• "You're so sneaky, leaving no blood trail can turn you into a ghost that no killer can pinpoiint!" Except 2 things: 1.) Killers don't often rely on blood pools any more than they rely on crows. The preferred method of tracking other than direct line of sight would be scratch marks. Scratch marks tell killers everything they need to know just by being there - if there are scratch marks, you're running; if there are no scratch marks, you're hiding somewhere nearby. You're not going to lose the killer in chase because there aren't any small red blobs beneath the bright neon red carpet that points to your location. While it may come in handy in very particular and stringent circumstances - it almost never will. Hide in a locker and pray to Jesus in heaven that the Killer doesn't see the little droplets of blood and think to yourself 'oh my, why didn't I take No Mither?!" No, because survivors very rarely hide in lockers so imminently, and often when they do - the killer can hear the squeaky hinges and deduce as much. Leaving no blood is not a selling point of the perk because it hardly does enough to conceal your location beyond what a competent killer is going to find regardless. 2.) Lucky Break, Parental Guidance, and Off The Record exist. Blood suppression is not a point No Mither has in its favor.

• "If the killer leaves you on the ground, you will be impossible to find with no blood trail!" But you still make noise anyhow. Killers rely more heavily on the sound than the blood to find you out anyway. The groans while Dying are reduced, but not muted. The killer is still going to find you if they return to the same general area. But remember - the killer isn't going to leave you on the ground anyway - because they can clearly see that you brought No Mither and want/need to be hooked. You're not a stealth slug, you're a hooked slug. The entity isn't going to care if your "Sacrificed" screen leaves a blood trail or not.

• "It adds variety to the matches, making them a lot more interesting!" Survivors take the same 12-18 perks when they have over 100 to choose from. No Mither isn't the sea salt caramel that we're all pining for. You want to dazzle a killer and your teammates with Variety? Go Red Herring, Solidarity, Repressed Alliance, and/or Blood Pact. Not only do these perks rarely see the light of day, but they do a lot more to help your team and make the match more interesting than No Mither ever could, and that's just to name a few. There are over 60 perks that, if brought into a match, would breath a lot of variety into the game without ruining the fun for everyone else who qued up with you.

• "This perk can make the killer focus on you and try to chase you down! You become public enemy #1 and can loop them forever!" That would be a good point, aside from two things: any killer worth their salt isn't going to go out of their way to attack you, especially not first. You cannot make a safe hook-run with this perk and you don't have to waste time healing, so chasing you first is sub-optimal. Unless the killer catches you out, they're likely going to save you for last - as the riskier the plays get as the trial draws long, the more detrimental your perk becomes. Unless you give them an easy open to the chase, they likely aren't going to prioritize you over anyone else. Quite literally, the killer gains no bonus slowdown or pressure by hooking you while everyone else is healthy - as all available survivors can go for the hook, and they don't even have to bother healing you! It's better to save you for later so that they can draw you into a disadvantaged zone or pull you into risky positions for the 1-hit down. But, even so, let's say that everything goes according to plan and the killer thinks you easy prey, why is No Mither the better perk for the chase? If you are such a strong looper that you can extend a chase for eons - then why is No Mither the best choice? Wouldn't it be better to have an empty perk slot and T-bag at the killer to get their attention? You could accomplish the same ends by different means - a flashlight with annoying clicky-clicks and T-bagging until the killer comes over and smacks you is literally the same exact thing, but wastes more of the killer's time and doesn't require a perk slot or the massive drawbacks. The perk betrays such an intention by working against your interests, it prevents you from capitalizing on it, it doesn't help you if you're good in chase, and it doesn't do anything that the crouch key doesn't already do for you.

• "No Mither allows you to become the tunneled survivor when the killer tries to tunnel someone else!" So, jumping into the fray to keep the killer from tunneling someone can be a good thing, yes. But don't you think it would be better to take a protection hit while healthy than to become the next tunnel? No only could the killer easily leave you so that your friends can pick you up, but even if the killer chooses to make you their new target, what all is that going to accomplish more than taking 2 protection hits wouldn't do better? Either you're in a position where the killer cares if you get up, or they don't. If it's late in the trial and the killer is gunning for that tunnel, why would they care if you go down? You have to spend 20-30 seconds getting back up anyhow and your friends are going to run off of generators to pick you back up, you just handed the killer a win-win they wouldn't have had if you were healthy. On top of it all, the killer could go right back to tunneling and, if they're lucky, they can still pick you up for a cheeky hook on the side. If it's early enough in the match that the killer isn't dedicated - swapping at the hook may make you their new target, but that isn't exactly playing to the strengths of your team, and could backfire very easily. The perk being the 'I'm a pro at hanging on the hook' is not a selling point. In addition, you could better and more effectively accomplish this with For The People: unhook and press E on them then run at the killer. It's not a play that you couldn't accomplish with other tools.

• "This perk allows me to use Dead Hard and Resilience by default!" This, hilariously enough, is the best argument. You can use DH to get away from a T3 Michael or a Cannibal chainsaw first thing, and you get a cheeky 9% buff to repair. But when you realize that most survivors can play super well without being constantly injured, and that you just used 2 entire perks to shave ~8s off of a generator when you could have saved more time by taking a hit while healthy. The ability to use everyone's favorite crutch perk, Dead Hard, whenever desired is very good - but when your entire reasoning behind using a perk is because using your 'everything proof shield' in extremely particular circumstances justifies not having a health state on top of your 'everything proof shield' is pretty bad. You might as well argue that this perk could counter The Shape because the killer can't stalk you for Tier3 if they already killed you in Tier2. It's very weak.

• "This perk makes 1 shot abilities redundant! The Exposure effect doesn't matter with No Mither!" So by giving the killer exactly what they want, they can't take exactly what they want ? That would be like arguing that you can't be mugged if you already gave the criminal all of your money. In the end of the day, you may not be getting exposed/mugged in essence, but you're still going to die/have-no-money. When a cannibal is squaring up against you, the fact he can use his M1 OR his Chainsaw gives him more of an advantage. Just because you feel slightly less pressure doesn't inform the killer's choice. Chainsaws and Exposure are intended to put you down in 1 hit. If you make it so that you go down in one hit by default, your opponent is going to laugh all the way to the bank.

• "It's Bully Squad heaven! Bring it with your friends and run the killer wild!" You wanna know the worst thing about bully squads? They are most volatile when everyone clambers for the saves. Those bully squads that line up to take protection hits for hooks are spending a lot of time off of generators and are very eager to trade precious health states that will betray them later on in the trial. When you bring No Mither, you have made those bully moments far more volatile. Your allies may be able to troll a killer by swarming you and making the killer prove a hard choice of picking you up or letting you revive... except the killer will quickly realize this and search around. Just because you can self revive doesn't mean it's dangerous. A killer can just as easily hit you once you stand up again. No flashlight saves are going to keep you from being hooked after your friends go for some sabotages and take a few hits. To a killer, hooks are time. To a survivor, generators are time. If you have an orchestra of teammates swarming around you to deny your hook - you're wasting generator time and are trading down with health states and resources. Off of a single No Mither squad, the killer can accomplish multiple downs and still manage to get one or more hooks. Trying to sweep in for the save in these situations is the #1 way SWF bully squads backfire. Worst thing is, this can be accomplished BETTER without No Mither. Without, you can be healed up and help your friends when THEY go down - and use that perk slot for basically anything better like Unbreakable, Flip Flop, Boil Over - all superior options. Not only does this perk fail to help these situations in any way that other perks cannot do themselves, but you should be actively avoiding these all-or-nothing saving throws as survivor, not betting everything on them.

• "There always has to be that one bad part of something, which means No Mither must exist - to give contrast to what's good!" Not only would Gestalt disagree, but basically anyone in design, engineering, or production would too. A machine strives for every part to be the best, and to serve a purpose. There is no part of a greater body that should seek to be the least useful. Everything in the known world - through both establishments in all religions and through the principals of evolution - point to the antithesis of this thought. There does not always have to be the bad one in a system. If BHVR was bought by Elon Musk tomorrow and he chose to make each and every perk fun and viable, by golly they could do it. By a combination of poor design and the active choice of the developers to make a 'Hard mode' challenge perk, this one has become the pariah. It is not a bad perk because there is a necessity for something to be bad in any given system. There is no evidence in reality or even gaming to suggest that this is some form of logical rule or reasonable expectation to hold.

• "This perk is very strong with X and/or X perk!" If you have to mix and match other perks to find value, does it really matter in the end? Flip Flop and Power Struggle are both good on their own, but enjoy increased usefulness when put together. Streetwise, Botany Knowledge, and Built To Last can keep an medkit in play - but when used together they greatly increase it potency. The problem with perks is what can be called called 'elective exclusivity'. You have a finite amount of choices, and many options to choose from. When you use more than one perk to accomplish a means, it must earn its keep by a multiple. But the truth is, all of the perk combinations and 'synergies' listed out for No Mither are not noteworthy nor exclusive. "Iron Will makes you always silent!" But Iron will always does that, and No Mither's only contribution is that it always hurts you. "Resilience will make chases and actions faster!" but it will do that with or without No Mither, the only thing NM does in this situation is place you on second square on the road to losing faster - like a killer bringing a new perk "All the Mither" which instantly completes all generators at the beginning of the trial 'it has great synergy with NOED' - but who cares? You were going to have better value from NOED without it anyway. Just because you attach something circumstantially useful to a bad thing doesn't mean it's generally useful. If your favorite mug helps you get through a bad day at work, equipping the new perk 'Work Mither' to make you have a bad day at work EVERY DAY doesn't mean that you net more value from your mug. If a perk gives you $15 - using the perk that puts you $5 in debt isn't exactly the clutch perk that's fully realizing the innate value of the former by fusing it with the latter. Iron Will, Resilience, Blood Pact, Dead Hard, Desperate Measures, Flip-Flop, Soul Guard, Unbreakable - these perks have value that they contribute to a match. No Mither does not, directly nor indirectly, make these perks more valuable than if you spawned healthy and could be healed.

Given these aspects, I have no idea how people can talk as though it is even a viable option in a match. Is it that low-tier killers falter and fail to understand the perk? is it that users are used to going against low MMR killers that lose them in chase and are impotent in their abilities?

What is the logic behind the praise that this perk is getting? I truly do not understand it once bit.

Gosh I love necromancy old threads.

Onto your post, I agree with you entirely, any time anyone defends "No Mither" I cant stop but raise an eyebrow in disbelief, after years of playing this game and seeing the ocasional "No Mither" thread and user Ive reached the conclusion anyone defending the perk as anything but a self-imposed gimp is either extremely missguided, extremely bad at the game (anyone letting a No Mither user getting up by using the perk unless he is actually downing other people sucks at the game, and sucks A LOT), a Killer main trying to lure people into using it for easier matches or a troll trying to bait people into using it.

I cannot help but feel honored with my new title as 'Necromancer' :)

Its bad because it doesn't need to be good. You didn't break the story on this lol.

It's a great perk. You just cant see it's potential. No blood and 75% less noise on Ace makes him completely quiet. Plus it puts pressure on killer making it impossible to slug so they can't snowball. And it is particularly good against the Twins