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Ds being nerfed may be less healthy for the game than people think
![[Deleted User]](https://forums.bhvr.com/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Lets be honest its true, the threat of DS is what keeps a lot of games fun as survivor because you know the killer wont be likely to tunnel you, and that's where the issue is. If theses no obsession perk in the game well have fun the killer has a licence to play however they what and will be not be discouraged from playing in a way that is unfun and unhealthy for the game. This is why their should be an obsession even without any obsession perks.
If DS however becomes less prevalent adding an obsession every game wont end up meaning much.
The biggest issue is how it interacts with other perks or how its use can be forced, for example you can be unhooked just do down and force the stun or unbreakable, or just jump in a locker and now the killer has to eat the DS unless he just wants to camp you and let the game go.
The only issue that the DS changes address is that after your unhooked you are able to sit on a gen relatively risk free but I would say that's a non issue and the bigger problem is posed by perks such as prove thyself and items like toolboxes that serve no purpose other than to force compilation of the games main objective faster or the Purple and green medkits that can mitigate how much time a hit buys and speed up a reset.
Id honesty argue that DS should be just left alone or an extreme view maybe even be base kit or and their should be an obsession every game while it shouldn't activate on lockers or you should at least be able to just force the down somehow. Perks like prove thyself should be changed drastically and toolboxes should be based around solely sabotage builds and reworked around that maybe extend how long a hook is gone.
Is DS really the right thing to nerf?
Comments
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The only issue that the DS changes address is that after your unhooked you are able to sit on a gen relatively risk free but I would say that's a non issue
You're telling me that being able to do 75% of a generator for free is less impactful then a toolbox that takes off like 20 seconds?
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I agree there should be an obsession every match, no matter the perks.
However, DS is only being changed to make it less-abusable and more anti-tunnel. And as you may know, if you’re being tunneled you can’t hop on a generator. The thing I see iffy is healing, maybe.
On another note, I do think they should do something about generators and perks that increase their speed. But, I’m afraid that might even present it’s own set of problems.
Who knows. I’m not a game designer, I just want this game to be healthy.
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If I see one more post about DS I am going to ✨ lose my mind ✨
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Frankly, the largest problem with DS is that, as @WeenieDog has already stated, with it on, you basically got up to 60 seconds of immunity for absolutely free AT LEAST once a match, provided the Killer doesn't pick you up the next time he downs you.
60 seconds of a gen is about 70-80% of its completion at base, excluding perks and toolboxes.
I'm glad DS is getting nerfed so that I can play the freakin' game without having to micromanage the Survivors for DS. If I see them being productive, then they have it. Simple as that.
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Yes in the grand scheme of the game you have an option to deal with a guy sitting on a gen unsafe if he just had DS slug the issue is unbreakable being able to be used with it to make this something that is just a waste of your time because survivors dont have to move off what they are doing to pickup. Toolboxes dont have that unless you want to waste a perk slot on franklins and still it can be used any time and take a long time to decay while swfs will be able to reset the toolboxes decay. Prove thyself has no indication its being used and their nothing that can be done about it. Everyone being hung up on this is the progress thats theoretically possible if
-you ignore the survivor
-they get on a gen instantly off hook
-they dont heal so its easier to snowball
-you dont slug past the minuet
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From what I've seen most hardcore tunnelers will do it regardless of DS.
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It'll be fine. Nothing to see here.
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I have read your post multiple times and have no idea what point you are even trying to make.
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DS is overly dramatized as being this great horrible perk to play against and because of that its being put under a spotlight when there's really not massive issue with it but plenty or bigger issue in the game people are assuming that the value you get from it is so high or guaranteed but on balance its not as big an issue and their are ways around it. theres the point in that comment as its a response
Is it somethings annoying mid game yes, does it actually trump many other perks that have bigger issue. Big No so why is it under the spotlight for change. Especially when its much more important to solo q than to swfs when the biggest aims of buffs and nerfs on the survivors side should be to bridge that gap nerf swfs and buff solos
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slugging a ds user as counter works if they just let you do it in a quick enough time. If they are going to sit there and let you bop them over the head sure, but what about if you patrolling and you just see a person you just hooked working a gen and they start running away immediately? You can ignore them and try to find someone else, but you know for a fact they are going to go back to it.
The problem with sitting on a gen with Ds is that it lets the survivor progress the game state into one that is more favorable to them, while the killer can't do anything about it. They can dedicate time to mitigating that benefit and chase them down to slug them, but that still gives the other survivors time on gens.
Honestly, both of our situations require some amount of set up to see happening because we know how random maps can be. You can either get nothing but LT walls/ dead zones, or safe loops that just chain together near endlessly. All we can do is pick which is the best of a bad situation.
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"Is DS really the right thing to nerf?"
Yes, it is. 60 seconds of invincibility is not okay. It never was, and never will be.
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Dude Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
DS is the Meta. There is no way around it you will run into and yes it does take up too much of the killers time.
You haven't proven anyone wrong your just saying it is "being overdramatized because I don't see it as a problem."
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If they are going to sit there and let you bop them over the head sure, but what about if you patrolling and you just see a person you just hooked working a gen? You can ignore them and try to find someone else, but you know for a fact they are going to go back to it. If they have a way out its not ds making them safe slug them otherwise the issue here is lockers and DS and DS unbreakable both things i want changed.
The problem with sitting on a gen with Ds is that it lets the survivor progress the game state into one that is more favorable to them, while the killer can't do anything about it. They can dedicate time to mitigating that benefit and chase them down to slug them, but that still gives the other survivors time on gens. Hence why ds is a lesser issue than the perk and items i mention that do that better with no way to react to it but until there's a push that wont change.
Honestly, both of our situations require some amount of set up to see happening because we know how random maps can be. You can either get nothing but LT walls/ dead zones, or safe loops that just chain together near endlessly. All we can do is pick which is the best of a bad situation. Behaviour has only ever made a few good maps its too sad :(
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DS will still be the anti-tunnel perk it is now.
You just now have to be more considerate of your surroundings before working on a gen if you are so concerned about being tunneled.
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Prove thyself is Meta
DS is Meta
Iron Will is Meta
Unbreakable is Meta
Dead hard is Meta
Borrowed Time is Meta
Whats most complained about. DS
Ds is self applied and makes an obsession, its why its so necessary as is because it protects you from having a terrible time in the game not because is as powerful as it is and it is good but other perks still have issues that are worse DS will be the most used. Its the same as the other day one thread picked up and it was someone complaining BBQ should be a Hex because they said it was op. That's insane to me but the reasons some players think this stuff up is because of how used it is mixed with how its good creates this illusion its better then the rest of the killer perks. The same things happening to ds because people see 4 DS lobbies and are "that was #########" but honestly DS keeps the game healthy to some extent through its use the perks that make it insane like unbreakable and abuses with its mechanics (lockers) are the only changes id make to it because i want to see it used so people dont play in a way thats unfun by default but nerfing ds and not touching these perks i think are more of an issue is mad to me.
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Watch it , change my mind Gd must be nerfed
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Dont grab swing slug then pop then burn ds or if your pop came from a hook between their ds was about to run out. You misplayed so hard
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Honestly im not worried about that im more concerned that it will stop being used as much so if im solo q and I go into a game its more likely their will be no obsession, my game more of my games get worse while swf still strong as it is will pop gens like bubble rap and the game is more likely to be balanced around that honestly in my OP when i said is DS really the right thing to nerf I was alluding to the fact that there's things to nerf but its not DS, its things like Prove thyself op is swfs pointless to bring solo or unbreakable which combos too well. Its why i like the object changes in solo 1 person get info while swfs will call out where you are its op against specific killers while ds dosent have that difference so games will not be affected as much with swfs and while it wont be affected much at all it will disproportionality hurt solo suvs which are the weakest role.
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Still serves its purpose with none of the Bs that swf love to abuse. If less people are using it just shows it was being used for the wrong reasons.
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Even if that is true tapping a gen will stop it so its not just its used less now so it was used for the wrong reasons if you nerf anything the payrate will decrease by how much will vary
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Ds probably still meta even after the nerf. It's fine, survivors still have many more meta perks lol.
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Yep definitely fair. Work as anti tunnel perk as intended.
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Dude can you please think through what you are trying to say, as your paragraph is a mess of words that mean nothing.
Again you haven't countered any points your argument is just I say so therefore it is.
And seriously stop taking Sluzzy seriously they are a well troll and nobody takes anything they say seriously
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Haha baby surv, nothing you posted is consistent with this comment, from what I see you think that being immune 60 seconds is the best survivors lasted 10 seconds per chase my best advice would be to learn to play before crying because killers kill them
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hey just gonna say that just because you chase me doesnt mean i CANT get on a gen and get hit downed or grabbed.
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🤣 True, true.
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Not a suv mostly 50 50
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If your tapping a gen then your actively stating the protection is no longer needed. It provides enough time to get to a "safer" location, once there your still free to take any action you feel is warranted.
As for pay, most would be better off buying the chapter than a single character for a single perk. Even the shrine is a better alternative if it's for a perk.
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The DS change is fine because it stops actual tunneling. The change was much needed.
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If some toxic survivors decide to stop playing because they can't bully anymore with old DS, then good riddance.
My survivor games will still have an obsession in them because I will still run it, I never tried to abuse it and will still get to punish people who are actual unhealthy tunnelers, who go for you as soon as you are off hook.
If I get fully healed and start working on gens, and then get chased 3 times then fine, I die. But I won't consider that being tunneled unfairly, as I got to start each chase at full health. Instead I recognise that I myself should have played better and been more careful, and my teammates who haven't been hooked yet should have tried to pull aggro and take more hook states.
I had a fair shot and lost, I'm not gonna accuse the killer of playing ######### if I never get to use DS, because the fact that I never used it means they were actually being sporting.
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My guy you obviously never had 4 people with soul guard unbreakable and ds
Its annoying ds was made as anti tunnel perk how can i tunnel 4 people at once?
Like i legit had to make a account just to comment on how you sound
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No sir. Hard disagree
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It's unhealthy for so many reasons to list. Less will use decisive strike because it feels like a handicap to use it so killers will get a free pass to tunnel. Those that have it equipped will feel restrained and not doing objectives so killers will win even more games more easily. For the Claudette that thinks she is safe or tries to heal, the killer gets a free pass to tunnel again. And killers can still avoid it by slugging when they do tunnel. The devs asked killers what they wanted DS to be from its former self and they put it in the game the way killers wanted it. It should have been buffed instead of nerfed.
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in my Op
The biggest issue is how it interacts with other perks or how its use can be forced, for example you can be unhooked just do down and force the stun or unbreakable, or just jump in a locker and now the killer has to eat the DS unless he just wants to camp you and let the game go.
The biggest issue is how it interacts with other perks
The biggest issue is how it interacts with other perks
The biggest issue is how it interacts with other perks0 -
your baits so out of season the fish said duck that
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"Noooo you cant just make a perk how it was orginally intended"
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The thing is, if DS is being used as intended the perk isn't being changed whatsoever. All the devs did was attack the minute of immunity where survivors would move the game forward while being guaranteed to unbreakable or stun. The problem with your example for "the biggest issue" (this is coming from someone who plays both sides atm but started as a strict killer main) is you described exactly why Decisive Strike exists. In those situations the combos are doing their job when they should be. DS working with perks like Unbreakable and Soul Guard is only a problem for people who constantly camp and tunnel.
Let's also look at the first paragraph of your original post.
"Lets be honest its true, the threat of DS is what keeps a lot of games fun as survivor because you know the killer wont be likely to tunnel you, and that's where the issue is. If theses no obsession perk in the game well have fun the killer has a licence to play however they what and will be not be discouraged from playing in a way that is unfun and unhealthy for the game. This is why their should be an obsession even without any obsession perks."
If a killer likes to camp and tunnel DS means nothing to them. They'll still tunnel you. They'll just eat it and continue tunneling you. I still understand where you're trying to come from with this and I do think an obsession should spawn regardless of perks. I just don't think for people who use strategies that are unhealthy for the game are just going to be like "Welp there's an obsession, I guess I'm not tunneling this round," because that won't happen.
I'd also like to point out that you stated three things as "issues" with DS. So what's the actual real issue? It sounds like there's a lot of issues.
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Yeah, I agree. Few people remember that DS is a second chance perk at heart, not an anti-tunnel perk. Even if they try to whittle its application down to anti-tunnel capabilities, one single measly stun is not going to stop a dedicated tunneler, it's a fart in the hurricane. Plus, slugging still exists, and even if they get into a locker, too bad, that's a game mechanic. Get it out of the way if you can, or just go find another survivor.
Believe me, I've had games where I've eaten 4 DSes. It's not that annoying. It's a second chance, it's there, end of story.
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The DS change will help revitalize the killer population, hopefully. It sucks wanting to play survivor after playing killer for many rounds in a row, and having to wait an absurdly long time because no one plays killer.
The only thing that I disagree with is that if you self care for even a little bit, decisive strike deactivates. Unless I'm wrong about that? Touching a generator? Sabatoge? Yeah, it should deactivate. But self-healing for even a second shouldn't deactivate the timer. (if I'm wrong about that, ignore this last paragraph).
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It's simple. DS is now a true anti tunneling perk. If you took DS for a reason other than a safe guard for tunneling, then you were the problem. If you took it for tunneling, then the change won't affect you.
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What's actually going to happen is that Noone is going to use it anymore, because the nerfed ds will be total trash, so most games won't have an obsession, and killers will tunnel off the hook. I predict they will revert the change probably sooner rather than later, because it's going to be nasty, even if there is an obsession if the killer sees a recently unhooked injured survivor on a gen even for a second, they're going to go straight after them and tunnel the f out of them. Ds in its current state is sadly a needed part of the game, because gens are too fast and killers are under too much pressure, targeting one survivor until they are dead makes for a win. But that sucks for the one that's targeted, and then everyone else that has to play the rest of the match a man down. It's a nasty vicious circle. I think they need to extend gens or Add a secondary objective, and make tunneling/camping so harshly punished that doing so is extremely detrimental for the killer. Also, some.new game modes would be really good for the game.
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"DS working with perks like Unbreakable and Soul Guard is only a problem for people who constantly camp and tunnel."
Its not its oppressive if a survivor can act with no consequence like with the notorious small pp build DS unbreakable then its an issue I honestly don't mind how people play with DS aggressively as much as when situations are created with no risk involved that's just not fair on killers with DS you can be slugged with unbreakable you can be hooked with both you don't get either and the killer get zero benefit.
This might make what im going to say sound ironic after what i just said but DS being as popular as it is became a mechanic itself that discourages tunnelling yes a perk shouldn't be so prevalent but DS have filled a role more of necessity then strength so why nerf it in particular if you can nerf the most oppressive perks that work with it while keeping it fulfilling the role that it does. Adding an obsession will discourage tunnelling if DS is continually played.
"If a killer likes to camp and tunnel DS means nothing to them"
no it does that's just the truth you may die but either he's standing over your body for a minuet or you get to try to run him again. That in of itself make less killer do it and their for more games more fun even if it is a frustrating perk to deal with its prevalence is important.
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Your logic does not stand up to scrutiny. The anti-tunnel aspect of DS is not changing one bit. A Killer who cares about being hit with DS will still have the same reluctance to go after the same person as before. The only difference is that the Survivor can't work objectives in the Killer's face. If anything, the change cements the Perk as purely anti-tunnel.
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And it wont be used as much, therefore while the obsession mechanic is as it is tunnelling will increase in games with no obsession, if they change the obsession mechanic so that there's always an obsession and its still used less or falls off in terms of popularity like how adrenalin has became a lot less prominent not so much its not used but now I don't account for it every game as I would have use to in the past. The fact of the matter is its not about the one game it hits its its relevance in games as a whole and the anti tunnel aspect applies also to players not using DS if you have ever played killer you would know sometimes you will slug people on the basis they may have DS.
Its unfortunate but perks have often been used as band aids to problems within the game like how realistically you will not be running a killer build without ruin or pop if you dont have the potential to just slug and roll survivors and decisive strikes potential existence not just its use in game is a massive band aid over a reasonably important issue.
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And you base this on what exactly? :) The only people using DS to do objectives in the Killer's face, effectively, were coordinated SWF. This tactic was part of 3+ person teams who spammed certain Perks. As has been pointed out many time, in many threads, the super coordinated SWF are not the bulk of matches. Most people take DS as an anti-tunnel Perk, nothing more. Those same people will continue to take it. I don't expect there to be a significant drop (if any) in the number of people taking the Perk. You and I have the benefit of getting to see who is right and who is wrong in VERY short order. There is no reason to try and whine or complain about the change; it is happening. We might as well strap in and see how it goes. If a problem arises outside Perk Spamming SWF, I'm sure it will get addressed. However, I'm pretty confident in my opinion here.
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The DS adjustment or « nerf » if you want,is one of the healthiest thing the devs have done for this game. They have made very huge mistakes like nerfing hillbilly,but not this time.
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Yea "As has been pointed out many time, in many threads, the super coordinated SWF are not the bulk of matches. Most people take DS as an anti-tunnel Perk, nothing more." yea that's why I think nerfing ds rather than nerfing what what is uncounterable with unbreakable is bad. Also Swfs dont need to be super coordinated to be way better then 4 Randoms of equal skill they can just give important information to each other at will. The super coordinated SWF is a tiny % of games and what is the statement " The only people using DS to do objectives in the Killer's face, effectively, were coordinated SWF" based on. Its the same conjecture as mine also I don't think the game will blow up if DS is changed but it will certainly be going in a negative direction more games will get worse, but its not entirely an unjustified changed but their are simply better ones that doesn't hurt solo q while not really affecting swfs as much. leave DS change how obsession works nerf unbreakable fix locker "techs" honestly that would be my opinion.
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I mean yeah i'm a 50/50 player too and not having any obsession in a game is bad.
Last night i was trying to do the 3 Gold Devout Emblem challenge, so i needed as much hook as possible, being a red rank killer (even if i don't know how i ended up here beside just playing a lot), i found myself tunneling few times when i noticed there was no obsession.
And this is not healthy for the game.
PS : (Outside challenges, i play normally, going for the unhooker and trying to get 4 BBQ stacks.)
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Just run DS and killers won't tunnel off the hook. :)
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If people stop using DS because it's longer free immunity, then we'll all know and see the much bigger problem of DbD: wanting to bully.
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