http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why are killers designed to need survivors to make mistakes to win?
Just the title, I'm trying to join competitive tournaments of DBD in my region and it just disheartening to have tinkerer pop 3 times in 10 secs while just 3 Minutes in the trial. and in the matchmaking experiments I just encountered SWF with the usual perks of Dead Hard, Unbreakable, DS and Prove thyself. I most got 1 or 2 kills or like 4 - 6 hooks all day because Im on the higher rank side I guess ... and refused to play Nurse and Spirit.
My main point in why do Non S tier Killers needs Survivor to make mistakes? Why cant BHVR design another killer like Spirit or Nurse that doesnt need survivors to make mistakes to win.
Like you can be the greatest Twins player in DBD and Im 100% sure you wont win against a top 1% competitive survive with friends (Dowsey twins with 800+ kills got matched in 2 hours againt compe team proves this) but a Nurse or a Spirit are the only killers that stands a chance against these teams (and that's when they play perfectly).
Please design Killers that doesnt rely on Survivor mistakes please. It be great if us high rank players can choose more that 2 killers if we want to win in the new MMR system.
Comments
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The game is designed for casuals. They do this to encourage people to buy skins because they are happy and having fun.
Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$ and they are scared to do anything that will upset survivors.
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Dont you see the irony of your point? You are bringing up Dowsey losing against a Top 1% SWF, and basically ignores why he had to go against such a team - because he waited for over 2 hours to get into a Lobby. First of all, this is obviously a MMR-flaw (no cutoff point to the top), but this also shows how rare those teams are.
Most of the time you dont need to play perfectly to win as Killer. Sometimes people act as if the Survivors can mess up the whole time while the Killer will lose after doing one little mistake, but this is wrong. I make quite a bunch of mistakes as Killer and still have decent Results. And I also have seen one Survivor messing up and the game going downhill from there.
Most of the time you are fine with basically every Killer against the usual Survivors. Only in competitive play you will need the strong Killers, but again, this games dont happen in your usual random queue.
And well, Nurse and Spirit are not really good examples for good gamedesign - one of them is a design failure who only gets balanced because not many people want to put effort into her and the other has basically non-existing counterplay to be good.
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Because top 1% is only 1% of the playerbase.
If the balance is fine for most of the playerbase, there isn't a problem. The problem is with those trying to put money and prestige on a title that was never designed for that in the first place.
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if you put the time in less powerful killers can dominate. plenty of streamers have showcased this. if you don't put the time in, that's your fault. sweat squads are few and far between and the game is not balanced around them and rightfully so as that would absolutely destroy the headache that is solo q.
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This game isn’t designed around tornaments at all. This is a casual game designed for casual players and that’s okay
As for your point as long as flashlights aren’t in play (which they won’t in a tournament) Hag is pretty viable too
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Lets take out the MMR system for now then. Do you think there's any Killer(except Nurse or Spirit) at all that stands a chance against the team that Dowsey played against? Like if the greatest Trapper/Wraith played against then would they win even in a good Killer map?
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Probably not. But as I said, those are rare. You cannot balance the game around players like this, because this would mean that 99% of Survivors have a miserable experience.
Let alone that Dowsey himself is an exceptionally good Killer player, but the game should neither be balanced around players like Dowsey nor around the Survivors he went against.
This would mean that most of the playerbase will have bad games from that point, if you are catering for a really small minority. I mean, how many real tournaments squads exist worldwide? 20? At max?
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Didnt scott and dowsey both say though that the current problem is you'll eventually reach a floor to a killer that you basically cant pass without nurse or spirit. For instance otz probably with 50 wins on legion could face oracle since his mmr is so high. Well he loses because its legion against a 4man swf. Dowseys and scotts main problem was itll make the game real lackluster if the highest games are nurse spirit or lose. Obviously this is the top 1% but the fogwhisperers do help populate the game a good bit and it seems bhvr is moving towards tourneys since they literally hosted their own. (Which idk why when they know for a fact this game cannot be tourney)
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I tried playing Hag in a tournament, Survivors disrupted my web when I was busy kicking, breaking walls or when I was just setting up, crarrying survivors. I went up against a survivor team that werent gonna let me create a web...
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But what happens when survivors get good?
I live in an area that is more swf then solo (good ones) and i know this because i run into the same people all the time.
The countries these streamers are in have a large enough pool to dilute the good survivors to once or twice a stream and the rest are 2 games a week casuals.
It becomes extremely boring, that's what.
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Do people really believe their play is almost perfect always all time? because Ive seen a lot of Killers on postchat being salty about "not making any mistake and getting only 1K" and then remembering how that guy ran the jungle gyms and thinking "why is this guy running the gyms like this?, im getting nothing but fast vaults".
Most players make several mistakes and they stack, minor mistakes are of no consequence but they are hard to notice and they add and add and in the end the stack of minor mistakes becomes a massive mistake and a stack of those become a fatal mistake, this one is what makes you lose a game. Ive even seen people whining they played perfectly after making 3 fatal mistakes in a row which makes me awe at the level of delusion and overestimation on their own skill some people have, we are talking about picking someone under a pallet with 1 person around who was spotted 3 seconds before the down.
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Do these guys not read? Each killer has its own MMR
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Tbf hags like Michi who are very experienced can deal with these squads
Are you an experienced hag?
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Yes and scott addresses that but survivors DONT so teams at the top who beat out all killers but nurse or spirit what happens? Every game nurse spirit nurse spirit. And from what oracles said They HATE facing spirit so often. The game gets stale for the high level.
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It was tested for 24 hours and I highly doubt that’s all people were getting as high ranked survivors. If it is the case then all they need to do is make the matchmaking a bit less strict so that they go up against other good killers. It’s really not that big of a deal and until it’s implemented properly there shouldn’t be a million complaints
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Do you not get at the very highest their cant be any other killers? I can be best michael NA and still lose at the highest level. Why? Because besides killers like nurse or spirit other killers have insane drawbacks. Michael has no anti loop,No ranged attack, No map pressure, starts in a weakened state. Ect. This makes it so killers have a cieling they cant break because of the limits of said character. So you have to play another one who doesnt have such limits. Aka you guessed it nurse or spirit.
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If you believe in the power of friendship, everything is possible...
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Oh yes i have forgotten thank you. Lol
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In decent amount of horror movies the survivor is caught due to mistakes or dumb decisions.
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No you don’t cos if you play a different killer the opponents won’t be as difficult. With the old system this would have been the case. (It only wasn’t because it didn’t work)
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I don't really agree with this. It should be balanced at the top as well IMO.
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And for the survivors who are at the top 1% who have broken the limit of what killers like michael can do should just face nurse and spirit every game or stomp?
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Like I just said no that shouldn’t be the case and if it is then the MMR is too strict and can be adjusted. But has anyone actually experienced this or are people complaining before they even know anything about it?
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Dowsey had a 2 hour que until he got stomped by the top tournament team rn.
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So the complaints are based upon 1 game. Nice.
That queue time sounds ######### though. If that’s the case then it’s too strict, but again that’s the whole point of testing it
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Perhaps the solution, then, is to re-balance the Survivor defense and balance the Killers who ignored said defense around that. :P
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I could give you a decent answer if you define 'win' in the context of DbD.
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Brilliance? We don't do that here.
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Why don't you do this against other killers? Are thatey that much of a push over that you can literally farm them for bp and emblems without fear?
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If the survivors make no mistakes, why should they lose?
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This is why I stopped playing. Survivor doesn't feel skillful but is rewarded for playing well, but killer is very skillful but you aren't rewarded for playing well.
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People forget that killers are supposed to put survivors in a mindgame situation where they have to guess what you're going to do.
If the survivor predicts correctly, they get more chase time.
If the survivor predicts incorrectly, they take damage.
The point is that the survivor didn't mess up, they just failed at guessing. They have no control at a 50/50 if you're unpredictable, you as the killer did well to be unpredictable and put the survivor in the dilemma of potentially taking a hit. Not the other way around.
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There are plenty of good swfs out there. Voice communication, good teamwork, and each survivor has thousands of hours experience on the game. On PC EU the game has a very dedicated playerbase and I see these teams all the time. If you're lucky they're just good, if you're unlucky they're really good and also toxic and only out to troll other players.
Do they have unique callouts for parts of the map like tournament teams? probably not, but they all know how to run a killer, killer weaknesses, which gens to hit first, how to waste the killers time, and how to split the map. Why should we have a situation where these groups are literally unbeatable? especially when so many of them are toxic and the kind of groups that put people off playing killer altogether, hence the queue times.
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Where are the mindgames? you just stand at corners and stare through the various holes and windows to see what the killer is doing.
The only mindgame is the LT wall and even some iterations of that have holes on the ends to peer through.
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You can chase survivors towards unsafe tiles and force them to either vault or keep looping, they don't know if you're going to double back or keep chasing them. You outplayed the survivor because they are in a situation that will usually result in them taking damage. The survivor can't just pick any tile they want because you're faster than them and will eventually catch them.
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Yes, this is correct. However, MMR will most likely even out those "extreme cases". Dowsey with Twins is an extreme case, he won so many games (I think it was 879 Kills vs 1 escape), of course because he is a good Killer player, but also because the majority of Survivors are bad. I have never played against Dowseys Twins (but against other Killers when he was playing, sometimes he won, sometimes the Survivors won), but if MMR would have been calculated from the start AND used for Matchmaking, he would not have to face those Tournament-SWFs.
Because the game will check for more even games, so Dowsey will have stronger players at some point and this makes it harder to gain more MMR, since he will lose more often. And if he keeps playing Twins, he will lose against those SWFs with MMR active, until he is in an area where he can win with them again.
(At least this is how it should work, I dont trust the MMR-System at all)
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I am talking about real mistakes, not getting outplayed. Like bodyblocking when the Killer is carrying the Survivor, unsafe Hook Rescues, going for Flashlight-Saves which dont work, being inefficient. Those happen all the time and the Survivors indeed get punished for that. Basically things that give the Killer Map Pressure without them even have to do something for it.
I am playing on PC EU and yes, I know that some Content Creators say that there are really good players. But as I said, I still have decent results, and I would not say that I am really good at playing Killer. And if I can manage to get to Rank 1 without any problems and win most of my games, others will be even more capable of doing so.
And as I said, I only ran into a Tournament Team exactly once (some of the players were playing in Hexys-Tournament) but thats about it. Another SWF was really strong, but those were on Console, so I dont know if they ever participated in tournaments. I also played against Tournament Killers, but again, those are really rare.
Most of the players on EU PC are not good. Even when they are playing in SWF.
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I mean, that's kinda okay. Not every killer should be independent from what survivors do.
I just find hilarious when certain people bring up "you lose if X doesn't make mistakes" as an argument to nerf certain killer.
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The balance should be fair at its core and should be tailored around what is ultimately possible; the top 1% gets as close to that as possible and thus, shows what needs changing.
When you balance a game around the majority, you get an unbalanced mess that constantly falls apart, especially if you start to deviate from the majority. That results in player retention issues, because as players get better and start to deviate(as they do), they start getting screwed. You basically have a revolving door or new players coming in, getting excited, gaining experience, getting frustrated and then leaving. That, and you have a broken game.
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That's supposed to happen, if a survivor makes a mistake, they should be punished and potentially lose the game, resulting in them getting lower MMR and getting matched with a killer who's more suited for their skill level. 😅
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Yes, thats what I said. But people here sometimes act as if Survivors can get away with all mistakes they make. Which is not true. And it is also not true that a Killer has to play perfectly to win.
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This already happens in tournaments then, My question is How do non S tier Killers win if Survivors don't make mistakes?
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So what about now, those guys are a survive with friends and should still playing right about. How does the Top 1% lose in the current MMR System? or Better yet even if the MMR System evens out those extreme cases, they're still pretty good will likely never lose as against a non S tier Killer. If you matched up against those cases it's still about "You a Nurse or Spirit, Great you stand a chance 😀. Anything else will be a struggle to get a couple of hooks or kill by a miracle so too bad so sad 😪"
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???
The way the game plays is exactly the same as it was before the skin store even existed so I mean... nice try I guess? lmao
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Shhh that would go against the forum mantra, it's always the survivor's fault and their purchasing of neon Nea hair cosmetics in the store ruining the game, and it's never anything else.
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Give me a link to a High Skill DBD Tournament that shows a Hag won a game with Skill and not mistakes?
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But that would never work, any time a killer does something well killers just say "the survivor actually did something wrong" killers define mistakes far too loosely from what I've seen, killer doubled back and survivor ran into them? The killer didn't do anything, the survivor made a mistake, killer vaults window and confuses survivor? Survivor made a mistake the killer didn't make the right call.
What is and isn't a mistake is heavily blurred when it comes to killlers making the right choice and survivors genuinely making mistakes, i see it all the time on the forums.
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I wanna add that in Trials every second Counts, 3 secs is the difference that can let you interrupt a survivor working on a 97% Generator. In a High level tournament or High rank trials every Killers feels the stress of needing to get people away from generators. You as a Killer really cant do much of that said pressure while chasing or mindgaming a good survivor with Comms. also not everyone will loop or mindgame, good survivor will likely just Shift + W if they get a chance and they have a LOT second chances. A 40 secs chase means the other 3 survivors had 40 secs of progress to do 3 different Gens in tournaments.
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Killers that don't rely on survivors mistakes? Nurse, Spirit, Hag, Blight, Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, Demogorgon (arguably), Bubba (arguably), and Doctor.
All of these killers can be played to their full potential without relying on survivors screwing up. Perhaps that potential just isn't enough to compete with Nurse, but at the same time if a team makes no mistakes then not even Spirit with MDRing/Yakuoke Amulet can beat them.
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I think the fix would probably be to give the survivors more chances to make mistakes by changing the game somehow. The issue is that if both sides make no mistakes, one side is going to win, based on how the game is balanced. It will always be unfair in that case because if no one made any mistakes, no one really deserves to lose.
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