http://dbd.game/killswitch
Reworking the Spirit part 2
After some very helpful and "friendly" discussion in the last spirit thread I made, I realized the flaws in the idea proposed. It also made me seem like an entitled survivor main who wants spirit nerfed to the ground because lets be honest, one second for the "glimpse" feature was pretty bad and the changes were pretty survivor sided.
The glimpses every one second was actually crippling to the spirit, I underestimated how weak that would make the Spirit and just sort of spat them out there (whoopsie, I made an oopsie). So I admit that I made a mistake or two, and would like to engage with the troubles in this idea.
However, I want to keep the glimpses during phasing idea though because I feel it can be expanded upon in a way that works and is fun for both sides. I thought I would add some extra things and balanced a few things out.
Spirit changes:
- The Spirit reveals glimpses to survivors when of herself while phasing each 2 seconds
- Her base phasing duration is increased by 1 second (can be increased if necessary) giving her some more power to work with to help compensate. This means that she will show two glimpses of herself when using the full duration of her phasing. (Can be changed if necessary)
- Each glimpse of the spirit lasts 0.5 seconds
- She moves any sort of foliage she walks through while phasing
- The spirit can see as she would normally for the duration of her glimpse which is 0.5 seconds.
- If the spirit stops phasing right as she glimpses (so in that 0.5 second margin) her post phase speed boost will be doubled
Aesthetic changes I just thought of that would be cool
- When she reveals glimpses of herself, it should look like she has glass surrounding her like at the end of her trailer and make glass sounds if 4 meters close to her.
- When hitting survivors when coming out of post phase, she makes a screech like at the end of her trailer. There should be more screeches so it doesn't get annoying.
My small idea (separate from the other changes)
Do you know how spirit glitches just normally because of her passive phasing? I think it would be nice if she could actually channel this into a short-range ability. Players could press the attack button while charging a normal phase and immediately phase for one second, becoming invisible. During this shorter phase, she would still move at 110% mms and not see survivors. She gets no post-phase speed boost either. It could be used at normal medium and short loops so she isn't always phasing and make her just a little bit unpredictable and keep survivors on their toes. It would also use up 2 seconds of her normal phasing when channeling it and lessen the time survivors have to react to her. Furthermore, she would have to have her main phase channel up to halfway before using it so she can't instantly use it.
Overview
Now that should be much better right? Please provide some healthy feedback or constructive criticism if you think this needs changes and explain why.
With an extra second to the frequency of her phasing, she has a little more room to work with the new "glimpse" feature.
The duration of the glimpses would force survivors to keep their eye on her as well since the glimpses are sporadic.
Survivors can see her move through foliage which can give them more information on her if they are quick and pay attention as well.
So with the frequency of her glimpses, she can start to phase, make it look like she is going one way tricking the survivor into doing something. Now things will start to rely on her making good reads and predictions, therefore making spirit take more skill to play and be fun for survivors to go against. This would really make the Spirit take skill because predicting survivors is no easy thing to do and is a transferable skill across all killers.
This would also make it beneficial to hide behind objects while phasing, to get the jump on survivors.
So, what are your thoughts on this?
(btw, if bhvr does ever rework spirit, they should fix all sounds to be consistent while they do that)
Comments
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Looks pretty good to me. The main thing that would help give her reliable counterplay is putting her and the survivors on quasi-equal playing field for mindgames. It's one reason why I'm a fan of letting her affect grass while phasing. Catching glimpses of her and her catching glimpses the survivor definitely evens things out while allowing her to use actual strategy to be better.
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Just nerf her already, then I can give up on any hope of there ever being any balance to the game and move on. I'm sure other players would feel the same. Nerf her into the ground and make her a chewtoy for survivors like most other killers in the game.
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I think if they made the spirit get all vein-y from like she does on the killer side removing the 50/50 at the pallet and rewarding observant survivors.
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Here's my personal idea...
- Spirit now makes directional Breathing sounds (like the breathing bug some patches ago)
- Spirit now moves grass and makes audible footsteps
Done. She now gives hints to survivors, but deprives enough the survivor has to make a correct read on the Spirit.
She's a killer who relies on audio and environmental hints, so she'd be countered by audio and environmental hints. Sounds fair to me.
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I think I suggested the same thing a while back. I like this.
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only good one is prayer beads rework, maybe you could hear her phasing but always, as in, you always hear the whooshing even if she’s on the other side of the map, kind of like freddie’s add on. not hearing grunts of pain would make her a f tier killer, especially with no collision, you. could literally stand still or walk and she’d have no idea where you are get evil cat shirt here Buy Kawaii Aesthetic Evil Cat Shirt from our Harajuku Fashion Store with free shipping & great reviews! We offer a wide variety of Harajuku clothing for all ages and sizes.
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The beads do need a change. I think they could make her glimpse frequency change to 2.5 seconds.
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Lol you mean the bug that made her worthless and inferior to survivors?
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I think it should stay as it is. I think it should reward quick survivors since her glimpses show up for a short time and every 2 seconds which is enough time for the spirit to get close enough for a hit most of the time, so the skill would rely on predicting the spirit and having good reaction time.
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If that bug made you worthless as a Spirit, I'm sorry, but you need to actually get good with her.
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To be fair, that bug was pretty bad in all honesty. Every second or so you could hear where the spirit was phasing because of the sound. This made it a lot easier. You can't really say that you just need to git gud when there is something unintended happening to the killer that puts her at a disadvantage. All you had to do was listen for the spirit on a medium to longer loop and she would never be able to catch you, all it took was good hearing.
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Couldn't you say giving glimpses would do the same?
If you heard her, cool.... is she doubling back and tricking you? Is she still heading towards you?
You both have to make a read of each other and act on it.
Though, I will concede that perhaps my statement was a bit much.
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Glimpses would sort of do the same, the difference was that the bug for spirit one time had a much quicker frequency giving survivors a very accurate idea of where she was.
If I remember correctly, survivors kept staying on stronger pallets or windows and vaulted once they heard your immediate location. It wasn't the most accurate representation of where you were as spirit, but it was enough to know when you could commit to an action as survivor. So you did get decent info on when she is phasing, but you had to listen closely and then commit.
The glimpses will give survivors a more accurate indication as to where she actually is when phasing and will also allow mindgames for both sides. The mindgames should be in the spirit's favor if she is good enough (since she will always hear the survivors), but unless the devs somehow read this thread and try it out we will never see this in action to see if it is good.
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So who's going to point out that if you can catch a glimpse of the Spirit while she's phasing (and I don't see people arguing she should catch glimpses of the survivors in the same stead), this completely negates her ability to mind-game because you'll be able to tell which way she's going, etc.
Clearly some of you have never played Spirit for any significant period of time.
In many cases, Spirit doesn't phase, run and hit a target immediately. There's standing around and searching for where the survivor went and/or is going, and if you can glimpse exactly where she is when she's trying to figure out where you went, it negates the point of her power.
Seriously... just play Spirit, learn how her power works, and you'll realise you already have the tools to counter-play her. Don't just assume she doesn't have counter-play because you don't know what it is and refuse to learn it.
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I have played quite a lot of spirit, I have been playing her since her release frequently. And yes, I also know how her power works. In fact, I know enough to know that she does not have counterplay.
Counterplay is a reaction you do that is the opposite of the action that the killer makes. For example, if a trapper hides his red stain, if you stand still and watch out for it then that is counterplay. Huntress has her hatchet wind up, you can start baiting it out and breaking LOS when she starts. Even with Nurse you can do something or react to whatever she is doing.
But the spirit has none of this.
The spirit gives absolutely no indicator of when she is phasing, and her power is very one-sided because of it since there is nothing to react to. If you vault a window or drop a pallet, you are just guessing and hoping she messes up. You are trying to just hope you bait her into making a mistake. Sure, iron will and spine chill can sometimes help, but it is not a guaranteed fix. It just makes her work harder to get that hit on you, you are still completely in the dark as to when she is phasing.
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I mean, if "standing still" isn't enough of an indication that she's phasing...
What exactly are you going to do differently?
Just assume that she's both where she's standing, and also 'making her way towards you' at the same time. Instead of running back to where she's stood, run/walk/crouch in one of the many other directions.
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Lmao its not rocket science is it? But yeah thats the general gist of it. Never run at the husk, but expect her to be coming at you, or if there’s a window or pallet nearby expect her to be expecting you there.
Im not trying to brag or be dishonest but I can generally read most spirits like a book. Its hard to explain what goes on in my head because it all happens in seconds but its a case of understanding the other players skill level, understanding the situation you’re in, understanding whats around you, and it always boils down to “what would I do in this situation” and it turns out the other player was thinking the same thing because it’s the most obvious play.
If its a bad Spirit its even easier because they are so predictable. They’ll always look in the direction they’re phasing too which anyone will tell you is a big no-no.
The only time you’re screwed against spirit is long corridors i.e midwich because there’s often nowhere to go but one direction.
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She could be phasing... or she could just be standing still. But since there is no indication we won't know for sure.
Just "assuming" is not counterplay, like I said guessing is not counterplay to her. Even if you know for a fact when she is phasing, you have no other information since she can still find you, but you can't locate her.
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No, you don't get my point.
It is not a binary situation, there are more than two outcomes.
She could be standing still.
She could be phasing.
That's two possibilities, but it doesn't tell you; where she is, where she's going, where she thinks you are.
You have many different directions you can go in, besides "towards her husk" or "standing still".
"You don't know for sure which of the TWO things she can do, so there's nothing you can do" is total bullshit. You can do so many different things. Crouch, run, to the left, to the right, over the pallet, through the window, in a locker, behind the rock, etc. You read the map and you react. Facing the spirit is al about acting unpredictably, react to what you have, and do something she's not expecting. Running towards her husk is one of the things she WILL be expecting, the other is running towards the nearest loop, or vaulting over the nearest pallet, etc. Don't Do Those Things.
SOMETIMES you will be outmanoeuvred, that's just the nature of the game. Sometimes the Trapper will chase you directly into a trap, sometime the Hag will put a trap in a random spot you never expected a trap to be, sometimes the Nurse will just accidentally blink right next to you, and sometimes the Spirit will corner you so that your options are reduced to running away or running to her husk. THEN it's 50/50. But that's the game, you either chalk it up to your mistake in getting cornered, or the killers skill in herding you to where they wanted you to go.
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Alright, my mistake and you can do something about it, but that is still not counterplay. None of what you are saying will work most of the time if the spirit is good. Even if it does work out, you just got lucky or the spirit messes up. Sure, you can try to increase the chance of the spirit messing up, but she will have her power back in about 10 seconds.
You are reacting to nothing but just running around hoping the spirit will mess up her phase.
The fact that the spirit can hear every little movement you make makes it incredibly one-sided and impossible to make any good decision because you can't tell when she's phasing. If you vault a window and she misses her phase, then she will get it right back and start again about 10 seconds later. Even though you didn't get hit, you just guessed and the situation happened to work out for you.
So basically, you can do many things to try and make the spirit mess up her phase, but it is not guaranteed to work. This is also not a counter to playing against spirit's phasing as well because there is nothing you are reacting to other than her standing still (which means she could be phasing or standing still). In essence, you are making it harder to hit you, but it will not work against a good spirit, and sometimes you will just get lucky.
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Le sigh... I think you've just demonstrated that you've no idea what you're talking about.
For a start... if the Spirit is standing still, that's a perfect time to make distance because (a) she's only 110% so it's harder for her to catch up that 115% killers, and (b) if she's faking it by just standing there, then the longer she lets you run without phasing, the worse her position becomes. She'll have to phase, and now you know she's phasing so you can counter-play accordingly. Or she'll just let you go, and you've escaped.
Simples.
Btw, you also can't judge a killer based on whether you can 100% counter-play them at every opportunity. That's the faulty mindset. You can't say "oh this killer has no counter play because I don't know 100% which side of the pallet to stand at", she doesn't know which side you're on either and has to burn through her ability to find out. A mind-game is a mind-game... sure it's tipped a little in her favour, but that doesn't mean your hands are literally empty.
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How did I demonstrate that I don't know what I am talking about? You didn't even back this statement up.
a) Because she's a 110% killer she relies on her phase to catch up to you, she moves almost twice as fast as you when phasing and making distance will only work if you are already 20-24 meters away from here when she starts to phase. When she stands still and you run, she will literally catch up to you most likely before you get to another tile.
b) A good spirit will almost never fake phasing by standing still. Any good spirit knows that the best way to catch you is to follow you with a phase walk. At most, a spirit will fake a phase once against any good survivors.
And no, these are not counters. As I have said, counterplay is something that you can react accordingly to. My examples about huntress's hatchets or moonwalking at a tile are things you can react to.
I am not saying that you should always be able to outplay a killer 100% of the time, but there needs to be something you can react to and possibly outplay which depends on both the player's skill.
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How did I demonstrate that I don't know what I am talking about? You didn't even back this statement up.
I literally spelled it out for you. You know what they say about leading horses to water, etc.
You cited examples of Trapper hiding his red stain (actually, almost all killers need to do at on some level), Huntress winding up her hatchet, etc. Guess what the Spirit's "tell" is... she's literally standing still!
So if you see a Spirit literally standing still, then you play the mind-game. You might win, you might lose, but you can't complain you didn't know a mind-game was going on. In my experience, the best option when in doubt is to make distance, because if she is faking it, then it's just making the situation harder for her.
Simples.
When she stands still and you run, she will literally catch up to you most likely before you get to another tile.
Err, no. If that's the case you let her get too close to begin with.
A good spirit will almost never fake phasing by standing still.
Actually, they do it a lot, because survivors often mind-game themselves and run back into them at loops and pallets, etc. I do it. You know when I stop doing it... when the survivor makes distance once I'm standing still! That's counter-play! The Spirit attempted a mind-game, and you responded to it.
Bottom line, you react to Spirit standing still. Simples. If in doubt, make distance. Simples.
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If spirit is standing still she could be waiting for you to vault into her at loops, that's not a tell because you don't know if she is phasing or not.
Her standing still isn't a mind game, it is just her waiting for you to vault into her because you guessed that she was phasing, you don't know if she is or not. And you know what? If she is standing still and you somehow know for sure when she is phasing, what can you do about it? She could still just be phasing but standing still, or she could be heading towards you. You still don't know what she is doing.
This doesn't take into account what addons spirit players can bring, duration and speed are the ones that can increase the maximum distance she can phase after you. She might make it, or she will switch targets.
Survivors are not "mind gaming" themselves by running into you when standing still they are just guessing, there is no indication that the spirit is phasing so they are just guessing and hoping that they are right. Guessing correctly does not mean counterplay.
If you always run away to try and make distance on a good spirit, you will more likely than not end up getting hit since you are making noise for her to follow.
In a very polite way, I think you don't understand what counterplay is. Counterplay as I have said is an action you perform in the opposite of what your opponent is doing. The spirit gives no information to survivors when phasing, and standing still is not a telltale sign of when she is phasing or not. Is she phasing when standing still? Probably. But do you know for sure when at a loop? No, you don't. You also can't track her when phasing as well which is another thing.
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Making the effect of the prayer beads base kit in this idea though would be kind of pointless honestly since you can already see that she is phasing. She would only phase without addons at most for 6 seconds, that is not enough to traverse throughout the map so any survivor would just keep doing what they are doing.
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If spirit is standing still she could be waiting for you to vault into her at loops, that's not a tell because you don't know if she is phasing or not.
Her standing still isn't a mind game
These two statements are mutually exclusive, so I'm just going to say it again. You don't know what you're talking about.
By standing still, you don't know what she's doing, and she does... and she's waiting for you to make a mistake and vault into her. That literally is the definition of a mind-game! She's tricked you into doing something detrimental.
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How is it a mind game though if a spirit knows pretty much everything you are doing when you don't know where she is or what she is doing? You are just going to guess where she is or what she is doing, if you get it right that is still not counterplay, you just got lucky.
Mind games are when both sides are on the same playing field so to speak. As I said before, a moonwalk is a mindgame where both the survivor and killer have an equal chance to outplay each other by having quick reactions.
The spirit is in full control of what happens and if she plays correctly and is good, then the survivor is in a pretty hopeless situation. When phasing she is not mindgaming a survivor, she is not capitalizing on the survivors mistake either because they can't really do anything. They can only try to bait her into messing up. It is not a mindgame because it is one-sided.
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How is it a mind game though if a spirit knows pretty much everything you are doing when you don't know where she is or what she is doing? You are just going to guess where she is or what she is doing, if you get it right that is still not counterplay, you just got lucky.
Because the Spirit has to take the gamble that you're going to run back toward her, rather than running away and making distance which would be more detrimental because of her slow speed and the fact that she can't see you as soon as she starts the phasing process, despite not being able to move for a second or so. She's taking a gamble, and the survivor takes a gamble. It's a mind-game.
And the gamble is always in the survivor's favour if they just make distance, hence the idea that Spirit has no counter-play is just nonsense.
And it's not luck, because it's a situation the Spirit engineered. Luck is if the Spirit was randomly running around and someone ran into her.
Mind games are when both sides are on the same playing field so to speak.
And they are on the same field - you're literally making no sense. They have the same terrain and obstacles.
The spirit is in full control of what happens
She's not in control of the survivor's actions. She's hopeful the survivor will turn back, but that's not a guarantee. Very often nothing happens, and the Spirit ends up having to phase (in which case good Spirits vs bad survivors can usually recover).
When phasing she is not mindgaming a survivor, she is not capitalizing on the survivors mistake either because they can't really do anything.
They absolutely can! They can play pallets and windows, and they can stop, crouch, etc.
Seriously, you really don't know what you're talking about... and it seems you project a lot. You're either really bad against Spirit (and project that onto other survivors, thus presuming everyone is bad and therefore counter-play does not exist), or you're an amazing Spirit - even better than Samantha - to the point where you believe all Spirit players are on the same level.
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Spirit is fine. How about fixing all the bad maps so that other killers might actually be worth playing? Rather than nerfing a good killed to force people to play other killers. That mentality is why survivor queues are so long right now
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The spirit doesn't take a gamble, she just has to hear the survivor moving. No matter what, a survivor will make noise, even with iron will. She has your scratch marks, breathing, noise from your groans of pain, and footsteps to listen to. If the survivor makes distance, it is because the spirit messed up and allowed them to make distance. This is in the spirit's favor because she goes really fast while phasing so unless they were already far enough. If they get lucky and sneak away then it is the spirit's fault for messing up, that is still not counterplay either way because the survivor just guessed what she was going to do correctly.
When I said "on the same playing field", I meant equal opportunity to mindgame the other based on previous actions and reads.
She may not be in full control of what happens, but she is definitely has a huge advantage over survivors, to the point where it is almost guaranteed you will take a hit depending on the spirit's skill.
Playing pallets, windows, stopping mid-sprint, and other strategies are not going to work all that well against a spirit who knows what she is doing. It just makes it harder for spirit to play against them since she will have to react and think quickly. Also, what is stopping or crouching going to do for a survivor even with iron will? They will just be stuck there while the spirit un-phases, sees them, and hits them.
Bad spirit's are the reason people think she has counterplay, she doesn't.
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