http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why not nerf Camping and Tunneling?
Camping and Tunneling is absolutely miserable for survivors and isn't fun for Killers either. It's an absolutely boring mechanic exploited by Killers who haven't played the game enough to understand how to play the game. The game can be rebalanced after the change is made and it would remove a horrible mechanic that every despises. If you watch content creators who main killers, they just don't do it and don't need to do it. The game is meant to be fun for everyone and this mechanic is a big ugly oozing sore since the game began.
Think about it in the context of Decisive Strike. It was nerfed because it was an unfun mechanic for Killers that gave survivors 1 minute of invulnerability. It was a nerf that was needed because it was making life miserable for killers and was being exploited by survivors. As a Killer, you can slug but that's your only option.
Camping is a terrible mechanic that is extremely unfun for both sides. It removes all options for survivors to do anything against it. As a survivor, your only option is to use Borrowed Time which uses a perk slot and is required to counter Camping, and is just a hook swap against some instadown killers. (At least every killer can slug).
Tunneling is just slightly less difficult to deal with but is still a horrible mechanic for players.
And to be honest, you don't need to use these mechanics as Killers to win the game, as proven by content creators, over and over again.
Remove these two bad mechanics that are being used as crutches for bad game design and rebalance the game so they aren't needed.
Comments
-
Your entire post is based on a false premise. Neither Camping nor Tunneling are mechanics. They are tactics, i.e. choices made by Killer Players depending on perceived need. They are in no way coded. They are Player agency, i.e. freedom to make choices. They are no different from the choices Survivors make when they decide which Generators to attack, when to Body Block, when to lure a Killer into a head on, or when to go aggro in their play style. Bully Squads are repugnant, but they are also a matter of Player agency, i.e. how they choose to play the game within the given rules. The DEV have said, time and time again, that Camping and Tunneling are both valid, legitimate tactics. Thousands upon thousands of us have managed to strive and thrive despite the fact they exist. You can too.
Even more to the point, the DEV did attempt to (at one time) dissuade these tactics to see what would happen. Survivors abused it like crazy, so much so that the DEV removed the constraints and washed their hands of ever doing it again. Think about that.
12 -
lol
0 -
wait, soon will arrive 100 killers making the hole bible to explain why it is an strategy
2 -
It's easy to say "Just remove them lol", but there aren't easy ways of handling these issues without changing the whole hook mechanic, which this game is build around.
1 -
Tactic. There is a difference between a tactic and a strategy. I hate seeing people conflate the meaning of these words. For example, when you take the high ground because of its defensive edge in war, that is a tactic, not a strategy. Tactics are in the moment applications of basic principles. Strategies are longer term plans with an end game in mind. Also, please do not engage in the silly "us versus them" dichotomy. Most people play both Killer and Survivor. We are all Players; roles are irrelevant to the discussion of balance or rules.
I digress. Camping and Tunneling are tactics. There are many others, the lesser known Herding being one of the most potent in the game. It helps create a 3-Gen situation which is nearly impossible for Survivors to overcome. Most Killers who are Camping and/or Tunneling as part of a plan, rather than just a desperate desire to secure a kill, are working towards an "attrition" strategy. They are intending to take a 4v1 to a 3v1 as rapidly as possible because it reduces potential Generator progression by 25% immediately. It allows them greater leeway in patrols and maintaining pressure. This strategy isn't without risk, because the longer it takes to reduce the 4v1 to a 3v1 the less efficacy it provides. In short, the strategy can quickly turn into an utter loss.
2 -
Arguing that it's a tactic, strategy or mechanic doesn't change the fact it is unfun and isn't needed as proven by Killer content creators. You can say using Decisive Strike aggressively is a tactic, strategy or mechanic, it doesn't change the fact it's not needed and is unfun for killers.
And there are definitely ways to remove it or make it impractical. I can think of several and if I can think of a few just off the top of my head, I'm sure the developers can think of more.
This is literally a crutch mechanic that ruins the game for a lot of players and can be fixed. The developers at the time, didn't know that this mechanic would develop in the game and be such a major problem for players. Now it is, so why not make some adjustments so these horrible "tactics, strategies or mechanics" is minimized or not longer a stain on the game.
2 -
This is another false premise. You either enjoy a game for the challenge it provides, or you do not. In short, you bring your fun with you. It is not anyone else's responsibility but your own. There are thousands upon thousands of games available instantly. If you do not have fun in this one because of personal preferences, you should move on. I would. If I wasn't having any fun, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't even stop long enough to make an idiotic "goodbye cruel DbD" post here on the forum.
Again, choices are not mechanics. Conflating the two demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of this game (and I suspect many others). You should worry LESS about what other people do in the game and more about what YOU do in the game. Ask yourself how you can mitigate the effects of these tactics that you feel are impeding your fun. In the end, we only have power over our own choices. You adapt within the game to your advantage and have fun, or you make a different choice and vagabond on to one you will like better.
Think of all the time and energy you could have saved, how many matches you could have played already (getting practice) in the time it took to read and respond to posts here about a topic that neither you or I have any power over. Camping and Tunneling are a settled matter. The DEV have spoken on them countless times.
2 -
If you really want to reduce tunneling/camping, it's better to give killers an incentive to leave the hook/unhooked survivor. Some measures could be:
1-The game always starts with an obsession, so the threat of DS is always looming around the corner.
2-Change the devout emblem system:
-Each hook state counts as 0,5 point.
-Hooking a different survivor from the previous one awards a bonus of 0,25 point. First hook also gets this bonus.
-Kill, and DC counts as applying the remaining hooks consecutively. Ex: a killer with H:DH mori a survivor that was never hooked. They will get 0,75 (first stage) + 0,5 (second stage) + 0,5 (third stage) as if they hooked them in succession.
-The last remaining point is awarded after reaching 9 hooks.
3-Introduce a score event the counts the streak that starts on the first non-consecutive survivor hooks with increasing BP rewards for the killer and resets if the killer hooks the same survivor twice. Note the killer can still slug without penalty. If we learned something is that players would do anything for extra BP.
2 -
Camping and Tunneling are 2 ways killers utilize quick pressure, with tunneling being easier to do
If you eliminate 1 survivor quickly, you can have a very easy game afterwards
Boring yes, nerf needed no lol
0 -
At best you can create Killer perks that incentivise NOT camping and tunnelling, improving the rewards of not doing those things. BBQ, Devour and Ruin are perks that do this. This doesn't mean that they will never be viable strategies though.
0 -
Camping and tunneling just simply doesn't mean they don't know how to play. Especially because its very effective when used at the right moments. For example at the end. It shouldn't be changed at all. You got perks for that. Plus it does happen a lot but honestly, it doesn't happen as much as people think. Some people make it out like it happens every game or something. At high ranks A lot of killers don't.
0 -
2 things
1 this i basically the us vs them cuz no survival will ever agree with camping cause it literally ruins the match
2 you can give 100 reaseons why it can be considered an tactic, but it continues ruining the game and something need to be done
1 -
Except this is also a false premise. Camping and Tunneling have been with the game since the start, 4+ years and running. The game hasn't been ruined yet, and continues on in a reliable way. Clearly lots of people are having fun despite those tactics being around. The evidence does not support your assertion. What I am suggesting is that everyone is playing the same game you are playing. Many of us (most in fact) manage to deal with those tactics. Nobody likes being tunneled or camped when the time comes, but like the Dude... we abide.
3 -
- The Exit Gates have been opened and there's someone on the hook. You leave the hook and everyone escapes.
- You hook someone, and immediately see scratch marks close to the hook, so why would you not follow them and go for whoever made those scratch marks?
- You hook someone, you leave the hook, you find another survivor and start a chase... but they run back to the hooked survivor.
- A hooked survivor is an objective for other survivors. You know other survivors will come to the hook. If you can't find survivors anywhere else, the hook is a safe bet.
0 -
because it is. you are just not willing to accept that
2 -
IIt has been in the game from a long time but it is obviously encreasing
what i remember finding an camper once per month now its once per day
And that is the real problem the devs are so lazy in finding an solution that we need do abide, this should not happen, we should not accept something that ruins the match
tunneling is ok, i dont understand all the hate to be honest, like we already have DH and SB to flee in case of tunneling, just camping that i think that is really stupid
It isnt about the game being ruined, its more about that match being ruined
0 -
In the end even if it is annoying it is acceptable
My biggest problem is in the middle/beggining
0 -
It can be, it dosent remove the fact that it is stupid
0 -
If it happens in the beginning, it's a bigger problem for the killer. The other survivors just do gens and escape. Killer is guaranteeing they can't get a 4k, 2k at best.
0 -
Let's just say your experiences and mine are not in alignment. There was a time you went a MONTH between seeing campers? Really? Come on... really? You know that camping and tunneling was the mainstay of the game when it started right? It was so hard to run a Survivor down with all the infinite loops that once you got someone down you kept your foot on their throat. Entire Perks were created specifically to encourage camping (Insidious, Monstrous Shrine, etc.). Camping wasn't just common it was the entire Meta. What timeframe are you talking about when you went a MONTH between campers? It is statements like these that make me doubt your veracity.
Camping and Tunneling have been around since the start. They declined as the Meta changed and hit a more or less middle ground and have stayed about the same for the last two years. There are minor up and down ticks depending on Perks. Undying + Ruin sent them downward for awhile as the Killers had more leeway to rampage around. Mostly, however, the tactics are pretty stable and consistent in their use. They are common in the Potato Ranks (and always will be) and thin out as you advance.
1 -
It isnt about if the killer will loose or not
The fact that i dont see an problem with end game camping is cuz i had all the game to play, so even if in the end i get facecamped i still had an fun game
But when it is in the beggining it isnt an fact of me getting facecamped or not, is more of the fact that the match is gonna suck, and this is the real problem with camping
0 -
2018 to be exactly
even in 2017 i dont remember to have so many campers cuz imagine searching in google op tatics to win, so basically i am was not in the high level play to find so much campers as you says that had
0 -
There's a difference in the game being fun and mechanics in the game being an absolutely horrible experience for players. You keep making these strawmen arguments to attack a position that I doubt you even agree with.
Except for end game collapse (which almost everyone understands the point of this), what purpose does camping serve to make the game a better experience for all players? And like I've said before, content creators have proven over and over again that it's not needed and in most cases a mistake for Killers. So why keep something in the game that no survivor player (4/5s of the player base) will ever say is enjoyable and I doubt any Killer can honestly say it's a fun experience.
A better solution can replace these tactics and make the game a better experience for everyone.
0 -
I'm not making strawman arguments. Please don't put me in a position of listing all the rhetorical fallacies and how they are used. I'm stating facts and sticking with facts. Let me itemize a few things for you so there is no lack of clarity.
- The DEV have said, many times in fact, that Camping and Tunneling both are legitimate, valid tactics.
- Camping and Tunneling both are niche tactics, i.e. sometimes they are the correct choice, and sometimes they are not. The Killer (not you) decides if/when to employ them.
- A mechanic is a coded function of the game, like an animation, a Perk, and so on. Choices are not mechanics.
- The Killer's job is NOT to make the game a fun experience for all Players, nor is it the job of the Survivors to make the experience of others an enjoyable. The Killer's job is to prevent Survivors from escaping and kill them. The Survivors job is to get out.
- Nobody can make the game fun FOR YOU. That is your responsibility alone. Until you accept that basic truth, you are going to be on the horns of a dilemma.
- Fun is what YOU make of it. If you aren't having fun here, you know where the door can be found.
- If you keep playing here, constantly complaining about other Players or the game itself, you are a hypocrite.
I could go on itemizing but those are the most important. In case you don't do well with lists, let me put it another way. If you and a friend are playing Tennis, Pool, or whatever, it is your job to play to win. It is not your job to make sure your opponent has fun. The fun is in the game itself, i.e. the challenge. You either enjoy a particular game or you don't. When you were a kid and one of your parents or siblings taught you Chess (or Checkers) you didn't want them to LET you win. You wanted to earn it. If they dumbed it down and you noticed, or told you they let you win, it stole something from you. It was disrespect. Those are PvP games, and so is DbD.
So let me emphasize again, that you need to focus on YOU and what YOU can do to get better and mitigate those things that are impinging on your fun. YOU need to step up or step out. Blaming your personal failures on other people is bad sportsmanship.
0 -
Let me itemize as well.
- Strawman - I never said they weren't valid tactics. I said the tactics were not fun for a majority of players.
- I have no idea why this matters.
- Strawman - This isn't even part of the argument.
- Strawman - I never said that it was the Killers job to make the game fun for survivors. But it is the Devs job to make the game fun for it's player base.
- Ad Hominem
- Ad Hominem
- Ad Hominem
Whole paragraph of Ad Hominem attacks.
Here's my question again and maybe you can give us an adequate reason for you answer.
---
Except for end game collapse (which almost everyone understands the point of this), what purpose does camping serve to make the game a better experience for all players?
0 -
In a word, no. You need to retake basic Philosophy 101 where they go over Fallacies. I want to point out that you make a very large assumption, choosing to speak for the majority of players. You don't. My points all still stand. The game isn't changing. Those things ARE the game. You can take it or leave it; the choice is yours. Being a bad sport and ranting about it over here is just a waste of your time and energy.
0 -
I think that rehooking the same survivor, whether it be consecutively or within x amount of time, should just resume the hook timer where it left off as opposed to jumping to the next state. This would massively cut down the strength of tunneling, as it would be a very ineffective strategy and survivors won't feel like DS is necessary.
As for camping, I don't really see it as a problem other than it's just really boring. It's already punished via the emblem system and the only real problem with it is that in solo queue the only way teammates can know the killer is camping is if you have Kindred.
0 -
This is an interesting idea, and I don't know if they tested this one. They tested a lot of other things though.
0 -
With camping, I think the Devs could pause the hook timer if the Killer is within 32 meters of the hook and another survivor isn't. If another survivor is within 32 meters, then the hook timer continues.
However, I think there are many other options to fix issue. With those 2 changes, the Devs can get rid of Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time.
0 -
Pausing the timer has already been tried. It was abused by survivors looping the hook. It was promptly discarded.
4 -
I'm a survivor main 100% and I'll never try to stop camping. It should be allowed. I just wish their were more risks. Obviously the killer is camping bc they are satisfied with losing gens for the kill.
But sometimes the gens are done and 1 person is on hook. Obviously there is nothing left to guard except the hook.
I keep proposing a perk that boosts gen progress when the killer stays in proximity of the hook. Bc everyone wants to get out of a face camping match as soon as possible lol.
Camping is a tactic but there's little counterplay to insta down characters like bubba. Especially since he has insta downs 100% of the time.
0 -
I like your idea also. I do think it needs the "not in a chase" mechanic and killer within 32 meters, so it's not abuseable by survivors.
Either one would also have the additional effect of reducing tunneling because it gives the hooked survivor a head start.
0 -
Another option is making Kindred's 'Reveal the killer's aura if he's within X meters of the hook' baseline. That'd help less coordinated teams to muster the only counter to camping: Giving up on the rescue.
1 -
Someone needs to learn what an Ad Hominem is.
Also, You can't claim every argument you didn't PERSONALLY make is a Strawman. (do you need to learn the meaning of that word too?) They're common arguments people make here all the time, and Moundshroud was addressing them as such, not specifically points in rebuttal to yours. "Itemised points for clarity"
As for you actual question at the end, It's not the killers job to make it a better experience for all players. The killers job is to hook and kill every survivor. But camping isn't often the best strategy, only when the killers power makes it the optimal choice.
Hooked survivors are an objective for other survivors. If you can't find any survivors, you know they're going to come towards the hook eventually. You might want to trap near the hook if you're a killer with traps, or if you have high mobility, return to the area the hooked survivor is in periodically. If you're a M1 killer, camping is not a very viable strategy, as the other survivors can just do gens.
The bigger problem however, if that many survivors mistake camping when there is none. When another survivor leads you back to the hooked survivor. When there's fresh scratch marks about the hooked survivor, etc. That's the survivors fault, not the killers.
1 -
The better anti-camping perks are actually killer perks.
BBQ, Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, etc.
And really, gen speeds are fast enough as it is, it is one of the biggest bugbears for killers in the game. Ideally, we could do with a gen defence perk that is disabled when within range of a hooked survivor. If it was strong enough to compete with Ruin, then that would probably be the best anti-camping perk the game could come up with.
You couldn't claim that survivors who looped the killer by the hook were abusing that, as it's just a perk, not a fundamental part of the game like the entity progression, and it would in fact serve as the counter to that perk, similarly to how Ruin is countered by cleansing the Hex, and BBQ is countered by getting in a locker, etc.
0 -
Don't like tunneling? Bring DS.
Don't like camping? Bring BT or Kindred and do gens as much as you can.
Both tunneling and camping have down sides.
You won't win by simply doing tunneling/camping without thinking.
If there is some nerf added to camping/tunneling, gen speed or gen mechanics need to be heavily adjusted to compensate.
Like gens regress automatically without Hex ruin or something.
0 -
First line, absolutely true. Second line, what I read is "It is a boring mechanic that entitled survivors do not understand is necessary because they haven't played the game enough to understand how it works." And that makes me question your entire opinion on the subject. In some recent games on The Game, I counted how many pallets needed to be broken, how long it takes for a killer to break them without a special ability/perk (2.6 seconds) times the number of pallets that needed to be broken and the amount of distance a survivor makes on a 115% killer in 2.6 seconds (10.4M), how long it takes a killer to close that distance, assuming absolutely no vaults or other pallets (17.3 seconds).
363.3 seconds. And most of them are god pallets. That is enough for a single survivor to do 4.5 gens by themselves. Now, the Game is the worst map in the game currently, but you can literally just run in straight lines and drop pallets, without looping or vaulting, and it would take 363 seconds. When you consider there are three survivors, they get an effective 1090 seconds of work just based on the time it takes to break pallets. That's not including finding survivors, picking them up, hooking them. That is just from breaking pallets. Assuming 17 pallets. (The Game has ~25) Most maps have a similar number of pallets. They are not god pallets, but they are supplemented with strong loops.
For camping, based on the mentality you have shown here, I am going to assume you mean anytime the killer stays near the hook. Even though there are plenty of times this is not camping; i.e. when you are hooked in the middle of the remaining gens, giving the killer a very short patrol in which you are the center, when there are survivors looping near you or visible trying to save you, when they are doing set up around you (Hag, Trapper, etc), or when it is end game collapse and you are the last kill they can possibly secure. (That last one is camping, but there is literally no motivation to leave) If I see survivors nearby, that means you are off a gen, AND they are off a gen. They are giving me pressure if they stay, so I am not leaving.
To think that slugging and 'camping' is only done because the killers do not understand the game shows that you don't understand the game. There are plenty of times where that extra couple of seconds to pick someone up and hook them is not something a killer can afford. Slugging gives the killer artificial pressure that the game doesn't always give them a way to have. It is FREQUENTLY shown by content creators that they do rely on slugging and 'camping' to win against survivors of their own experience and caliber. In fact, if you watch many killer mains who give advice such as Tru3, Otz, and OhTofu, they all talk about how slugging is a necessity sometimes, and how sometimes leaving the hook is the wrong move.
Even though you are wrong in almost everything you said, you do come to the right conclusion; these are bad mechanics. And they are common because they address other bad mechanics. Both of which need to be fixed at the same time, because fixing one and not the other will completely drive out the player base negatively affected. If tunneling and camping are removed, killers cannot possibly kill survivors fast enough. If gen speed gets nerfed too hard, and camping and tunneling stay how they are, they become way too viable, and the game gets stale.
0 -
Because there is perfectly logical and strategic reasons to not leave the hook in some situations
Examples
- All the generators are done and you now have somebody on the hook. It's logical to me to camp the hook in that situation as player greed will pull them away from the safety of the exit gates to "Be the hero " and get those oh so juicy Altruism points.
- The last couple hooks some dipshit rescued the victim before the killer had taken 5 steps away. At this point, somebody on the survivor team has established a pattern of behavior and most thinking people are going to expect a survivor to be nearby at that point and start looking for them
- The hook is in a nice and close 3 gen (more of a soft camp at that point). No reason to go very far from the hook at that point unless somebody grows a pair and pressures the killer away by doing one of those nearby
- Killer has another person slugged nearby. Half the survivor team is now occupied now and they now have the upper hand. There's no reason for them to leave.
Frankly, people need to stop whining about camping and learn to counter it because it can be counterplayed with smart play. And honestly, I'm not seeing survivors on giving killer's free hooks on purpose, why should killers give survivors a chance in return
It's a PVP game, rise above the challenge and get better. Of find another game. This game is almost 6 years old now and people have been bitching about this since day 1. Give up already, nothing is going to change, deal with it.
0
