Rework NOED to not be a hex, and not be OP at the same time
TL;DR at the bottom...
NOED, as it stands, is one of, if not the most controversial perk in DBD and has been for years.
Survivors argue saying "it's OP" and "it rewards the killer for being bad".
Killers argue saying "just do bones" and "don't 'genrush' then".
Both are somewhat valid arguments. Giving the killer a free one shot time period (endgame) because they didn't defend the gens well enough does seem to reward the killer for not doing their job well enough. But, totems do exist as an objective and do count towards the survivors emblems. So they should be breaking them when they are found and not only focusing on gens.
There are a few problems with NOED considering how the game is moving forward.
Maps are being reworked... While this is mostly good, we are noticing that totem spawns are changing. Don't get me wrong. In the past, we've had some AWFUL totem spawns (looking at you, asylum...). So this is a needed change. However, if newer maps (Lery's, Midwich, Hawkins, Dead Dawg) and map reworks are anything to go by, some of the new totem spawns are kind of ridiculous. Being tucked away in a corner is fine. But having that corner be in a dead end of the map, inside a small crate on the floor, facing a wall, just is too much.
Totems should be spawning in tucked away corners AWAY FROM GENERATORS. Simple as that.
Another issue is with the new HUD. I'm sure a lot of people who are either players of both sides or survivor mains were hoping that we would finally get a totem counter. Something to help bridge the gap between solos and SWF so we can work on balance from that point on. But, NOPE. We didn't. And now that we have the new HUD in place, I can't see it being added anytime soon.
There should be a totem counter on the HUD for both killers and survivors. The killer shouldn't have to run Thrill of the Hunt to see the totem counter. And survivors shouldn't have to just rely on blind hope that because they can't find the last totem after breaking four, that someone else broke it for them.
Lastly, the amount of power that NOED gives. Complain all you want. But NOED giving a period of one shot downs until either the game ends or someone finds that tucked away totem hidden in a box underground somewhere, is a bit too much for someone who failed to protect the generators. The perk needs to be reworked.
NOED should not be a Hex perk... BUT! It should still revolve around totems. NOED should be based on how many totems are left at the start of endgame. Make it so that if no totems get broken during the match, hex or not, then the killer has 5 1-shot down NOED stacks. Give the killer 1 stack of NOED per totem left at the start of endgame. AND, make it so that any totems that get broken during endgame, DO NOT make the killer lose anymore stacks. Endgame has started already. Survivors had their chance to lessen the killer's stacks. It's too late now.
Most killers don't even need 5 hits to take out a team in endgame with NOED. And this way, if the survivors missed that one totem somewhere, the killer still gets a free one shot and the survivors aren't completely screwed because they only broke 4/5 totems.
TL;DR
Make totems spawn away from gens. Give both sides a totem counter. And make NOED have stacks of 1-shots based on how many totems are left in the match (hex or not) at the start of endgame. Without NOED being a hex perk anymore.
Comments
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It's only controversial because survivors think they won when the last gen pops.
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That's hardly true.
Especially with perks like Blood Warden, Remember Me, Rancor, and now No Way Out. Endgame hardly means the end of the game. There's still lots of time to die.
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Statement is true. Doesn't mean survivors are correct.
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And the facecamping bubba with noed situation where its mathematically impossible for survivors to get all totems and gens done before a survivor dies by facecamp guaranteeing a 2k for no effort?
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I think more so that most survivors are bothered by NOED due to feeling cheated since they have no way of knowing how many totems are left. And because it seems like the killer is rewarded with a 1-shot perk for failing to protect the generators. Much like how most killer mains feel DS just rewards survivors for failing a chase.
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You mean a bubba with a built in insta down that can double tap BT and you are complaining about NOED?
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Give them a totem counter and they will still complain just as much.
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Doesnt make my statement wrong though bubbas will do this because they KNOW its impossible for survivors to avoid noed and get all the gens done in time before in some situations looking at the math 2 people actually die by facecamp. Facecamp 2 people then hit the 3rd with noed when the gens are done. Its partially noeds fault because you can avoid the saw far more than a m1. I would know i actually use the build on my bubba when im just bored. 3ks all around. (Red both roles btw)
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Myers with 99% T2 ready to go. Is the problem here Bubba or NOED?
The issue with NOED is that survivors believe they won at 5 gens. The end game is to taunt the killer within sprinting distance of an open door. NOED removes this.
Camping Bubbas at a hook? Come up with a better example. I've seen this NOED OP bs since it was infinite duration not a Hex perk state. They bitched when it was on a two minute timer. Nothing will satisfy them untill the insta down part is removed. Then they will come after Devour. Because 3 tokens is too easy to get.
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Now it just sounds more like you're unwilling to compromise. Complaining as much as you say survivors do.
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Actually the problem is theres not enough anti camp measures so that survivors can get all the gens done before losing 2 to facecamp then maybe a 3rd to noed but noed definitely makes the situation worse. A bubba should not have enough time to facecamp 2 people to death before all 5 gens get done THEN still hit a 3rd with noed.
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All Hex perks are a contentious issue.
Survivors think they're always OP and don't want to have the responsibility of finding and cleansing their totems, because they're all so hard to find... except for when you spawn on top of them, or they're by a gen, or you have a map or detectives hunch...
Killers think they're all too fragile, because while their effects are mostly great, you never get the full effect of them because they're nearly always cleansed immediately, and then it's a wasted perk.
So NOED is hardly unique in this aspect, both killers and survivors are going to have issues with it.
However, Hex perks in general are a great mechanism, as it encourages survivors to complete their secondary objective, cleansing totems.
I think it would be great if ALL Hex perks were reworked entirely, into an entirely new system. Killers would get a fifth perk slot, that is used exclusively for Hex perks, and is the only way of running a Hex perk. This way, every match comes with just one Hex perk, and killers don't need to waste a perk slot on it.
Balance these perks accordingly, so that they're neither OP nor inconsequential. This would probably mean most of them will be nerfed in some way.
It would still leave room for regular perks that interact with totems in some way, like your NOED rework idea.
So lets say NOED, Thrill of the Hunt and Undying were reworked into non-Hex perks that merely interact with totems. Leaving Ruin, Haunted Grounds, Lullaby, Retribution, Devour Hope, Blood Favour, Crowd Control and Third Seal. So every match survivors would potentially face one of these perks, which they'll either have to put up with or deal with. Add in a new Hex perk as a generic (as I believe all of those are DLC perks)
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Oh my god, you put it into words. This is exactly what I hate about NOED. Thank you
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No one thinks that 5 gens = win... If they did. Then no one would care about escaping through hatch. They'd consider it a loss based on your logic.
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NOED is only an issue in solo queue. Most SWF groups book it when NOED procs, and if one of them is hooked during it, they'll usually tell their team to get out anyway. It's not a particularly strong perk and has solid counterplay, but it becomes annoying when you're in a match without teammates to communicate with.
Solo queue needs a totem counter, and if you disagree to that and main Killer, just admit you want an easy kill by taking advantage of BHVR's poor game design.
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It's not OP. It's literally the most counterable perk in the game.
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Does chase time not factor into it? Or is it that survivors act more like moths to a flame when someone gets camped?
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The latter is exactly why some killers camp for the most part. Because survivors flock to the camped survivor, and allow the killer to get 4ks while camping. They then in turn come here and complain about camping.
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Have fun in solo que.
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I've been playing for nearly 6k hours. I play solo queue almost exclusively. I run small game, and rarely get hit with NOED.
Try again.
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Your experiences do not speak for the rest of the community. I'm glad that you don't have issues with solo que, but it's still a very common issue for most players.
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It didn't say it did. Don't strawman me. What I'm saying is - if I can do it *so can you*. Experience means EVERYTHING, and supersedes your "NOED = OP" opinion. Get better at the game. If it's an issue for you, it's because you literally allowed it to be.
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I agree there should be a totem counter. But NOED is a direct counter to gen rushing. The reason survivors hate it so much is because the meta is to finish gens and ignore everything else. This game was clearly originally designed for survivors to creep around and be afraid to do generators when the killer was near. To hunt for totems, and chests to get items and work their way through the map.
But the game is not that, and gen rushing is the meta. But again NOED is a direct counter to that.
In short. Survivors always tell me to "JUST PRESSURE GENS" so my response to you about NOED?
JUST
DO
BONES
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Don't know why you're so aggressive, but not surprised. I know how to play solo que, but it's not an enjoyable experience hence why I prefer swf (2-4 man) so much more.
You're trying to sugarcoat the issue of the solo que experience. I don't think NOED is OP at all, but most people keep forgetting solo que is 10x harder if the killer does so happen to bring NOED. Good for youuuu, if you don't find the experience miserable. Here's a medal and a cookie.
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This actually may not be a bad idea. And I’m sorry for the whataboutism but if Noed gets nerfed, should adrenaline get nerfed as well??
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Anecdotal evidence means nothing to the masses. Try again.
I always never had issues with Adrenaline. However, I'd be okay with it not being able to pick people up off the ground. If someone is on the ground when the last gen is popped, it should hold off until the survivor is able to move again (similar to if it procs while on a hook)
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He's literally not being aggressive in the least bit, he's simply saying if he can do it then so can everybody else that continues to complain about this perk with many different counters. It doesn't take much for anybody to use Small Game(free perk) to destroy totems until the perk doesn't work anymore.
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So, you want NOED not to be a Hex perk... but you don't want it to be "OP". Where have I seen this before?
Ah, yes! I remember now. I have the perfect solution for you. How about we reject modernity, and embrace tradition?
Problem solved.
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I said nothing about a timer. The timer was a bad idea then and it still is now. If it were on a timer, people would just stealth for 2 minutes. That's what I always did back in the day.
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All they need to do is make it so that NOED requires a particular amount of hooks (maybe 6 or 8). Keep the Hex part and that should do it.
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But isn't stealthing around better than people actually trying to destroy your perk? Besides, we both know that some survivors aren't that good at hiding.
And I know you never mentioned a timer. I just thought it was a good suggestion based on your idea. I think it is better then an endless, uncleansable NOED, like the original version was.
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If we enforce the timer instead of having people break totems, killer mains will complain about "genrush" more than they already do.
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Perhaps. Or perhaps not, most survivors do not break totems anyway.
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The funny thing was, NOED wasn't a Hex and was OP.
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The only in-game reward for cleansing dull totems is to avoid NOED, but trying to cleanse totems gets teams killed significantly, ridiculously more than NOED, so...
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By that logic "but solo queue tho" is also anecdotal. Try again.
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I never once said "but solo queue tho". Even if I did, it's not anecdotal. Thousands of people play solo queue. Only you play like you. Better luck next time.
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Thousands of people play solo queue. I'm one of them. Thousands play like I do, preparing for things like NOED because we aren't lazy.
Better luck next time. Sit.
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I mean killers have 3 perks the entire game. Noed can be destroyed before or after the 5th gen pops. The game isn't over after the 5th gen is popped. Theres no valid arguments when survivors call someone "OP"or "the killer gets ez kills". Survivors fsiled to do part of the objective which is totems. You would kill the perk with these changes and let's be honest the perk is used more by low ranked killers.
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it already isn't OP
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As I read The title i thought this would be something really unbalanced but this is really well thought out and i think it would be perfect to add.
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This sheer smug aura over arguing about videojames on forums is incredible.
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Who is Video James?
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Just cleanse the totems. It's not difficult and you have perks and items to help with the task.
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I feel like there should be a way to earn Noed. I personally like the idea of it being for each totem left. It could even be for each unique hook like BBQ or No Way Out. Four instadowns is extremely powerful because even with four healthy survivors you could get a free down on each one. I don’t mind rewarding killers for playing the game and the same for survivors, getting tunneled isn’t fun and neither is getting gen-rushed. The problem is that people compare second-chance perks way too broadly.
They compare DS and noed as if they’re the same. I play killer more these days and I realize that comparing killer perks which effect all four survivors and a survivor perk which only affects the killer is kinda silly. That’s why we have to realize the common ground is both sides are still going to dislike the other, but if we can make that animosity be just slightly less where then it is a win. At the end of the day mains on both sides will complain, let’s just hope the devs can find the balance that will make both sides have the least amount of issues with the other.
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I think it's time to get rid of some stuff killers just don't need anymore, with the constant buffs and instant-wins mechanics.
- They don't need current NOED as it is.
- They don't need Bloodlust.
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I play both but mostly survivor.
NOED - not OP, but extremely frustrating when you've gone against a killer who has got 1 hook then the solo Q experience results in 3 people proxying for the rescue and going down.
Saying do bones is half fair and something I try to do every game, BUT its not that simple, I've had plenty of games depending on the map where you just can't find that 1 totem.
I don't think it should change that much though, something that is frustrating sometimes doesn't mean it's OP but a totem counter would be a good HUD addition (mostly for the SoloQ -SWF bridging gap). For killers it would also likely slow the game a bit as those on soloQ with a brain wouldn't rush the last 1-2 gens and be looking for the bones. It would then encourage people to get them done and give the killer more opportunity for interactions.
IMO the totem counter is a much better arguement than 'bring small game or detectives hunch etc' as you can eventually learn totem spawns and trying to find them at least takes some time and elongates the game length.
Instead of a visible timer they could even add another sound effect for when a full totem is cleansed just so survivors at least have to pay attention to the number of times they hear it even, that could be quite good and more interesting!
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How has the NoED discussion not died out after 4 years? The game doesn't end until the survivors die or escape, and NoED is just a trump card Hex to make the EGC harder for survivors as long as it stands.
You can be bad and you use it, or you can be a godsend level killer using it, and the survivors can still be well enough to fly through the gens. All in all, it's a Hex that does its job perfectly if the 5 totems weren't all cleansed prior.
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Okay but then lets remove what survivors don't need anymore. 1. Toolboxes 2. Keys
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I would change noed to gain token by hooking the survivors and it goes up to 12 and each 4 token the killer gain a affect that would help the killer be effective and reward them which would encourage going for books instead of kills.
I thought of rewarding the killer every 4 hooks but it might not be a good idea of would give less reward which would make people use it less but that can be discussed
Don't know what rewards are for 6 and 9 but for 3 hooks, the killer would gain 50% more bloodpoints for sacrifices category and 12 it would be a 100% bp increase like bbq and the survivor pudding.
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