Why I think Dead Hard’s design is problematic.
Bit of a disclaimer here: In this post I am NOT trying to argue that any of the mentioned perks are too strong or need to be nerfed. I’m simply discussing why, in my view, their designs may be problematic.
Dead hard is a perk that's designed to reward risky plays, allowing you to dodge a hit by the press of a button/key. However I’d argue that this is a flawed design that can only lead to frustration and annoyance.
Dead hard has counterplay but only sometimes. If used for distance or if used against a Blight or Nurse in power then there's not a whole lot they can do. Blight can bait dead hard by bumping again close to them and then using another rush to get the hit. As you can imagine however, there are many situations where this isn't possible. In said situations, you are powerless. Even if you made a nice play, it's negated by the push of a button. It's become a crutch for many. They know they can make dumb plays because they have dead hard. In some scenarios you simply cannot bait it without them making it to a tile. If they’re in a dead zone then it’s trivially easy to bait but if they’re in a dead zone then they’re already going down regardless of if they have dead hard or not.
I’ll get to the point, Dead hard is problematic in my opinion particularly because of the fact that it requires zero effort to get. If you get hit, then you have dead hard. As well as this, it punishes something that must be done to progress the game at all as the Killer. Most other second chance perks exist to counter certain behaviours e.g. Borrowed time to allow a camped person to take a hit without going down, Decisive strike allowing a player to punish tunnelling (The effectiveness of it against genuine tunnellers is debatable but thats beside the point). However, Dead hard simply punishes the killer for doing something that they literally have to do to progress the game, that of course being, hitting survivors. Dead hard punishes the killer for something they are supposed to do. Am I the only one who thinks thats kind of odd? In this sense it’s somewhat similar to Noed. It punishes the other side for simply doing the thing that they MUST do to continue the game. There’s many other perks with similar design philosophies of punishing the other side for fulfilling basic tasks but Dead hard is undoubtedly the most commonly seen among them. Except perhaps Noed. Nonetheless, I hope I’ve done a good enough job of explaining my thoughts. You can insult me in the comments if you think my post is dumb but all I ask is to please be respectful to each other if a debate breaks out. Have a nice day, everyone!
Comments
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You know you can bait them into wasting it or just miss the hit and then hit them again?
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Did you even read the post...?
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In what scenarios are we talking about here? In some scenarios yes, Dead hard is mostly just a mild annoyance. In others, it can actually waste a lot of the killers time. Plus, I’m talking about the design of the perk, not the strength of it.
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I kind of hope they abandon the "dodge" aspect of its power completely and remove the I-frames. Everyone knows it's strong enough when used for distance, being able to hard-counter killers that use their powers for hits is just too much (Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Hag, Pig, Wraith, Trapper, Twins, Huntress, Demogorgon, even Deathslinger and Plague).
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Yes, "problematic this problematic that". Imagine unironically saying the killer is being "punished" because of a trash 40 seconds cooldown perk that makes them dash forward and they can still get hit at the beginning of the animation and after it ends since killer's lunge attack has a long range.
You can drop the chase if that Dead Hard made it impossible for you to kill that survivor. How did you even get into a situation in which a dead hard makes you waste lot of time? People use it to get to window faster or be able to drop a pallet.
Dead hard is just trash. It's exhausted on the ground. It can be completly ruined by a bit of lag or weird hitboxes. And you're only able to use it while wounded which makes it completly useless against killers like Leatherface, Myers, Ghostface, etc. The design of the perk is fine, nobody is being punished because of a buggy dash foward.
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''Dead hard is problematic because... because it does what it supposed to do''.
Excuse me, what ?
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You're delusional if you think Dead Hard is trash. It's by far the strongest exhaustion perk in the game unless something has changed in the last day.
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MoM did what was supposed to do also but that doesn't mean the perk was in a good spot.
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"Dead Hard is just trash"... Have you heard of meta perks? If Dead Hard is trash then why it would be in the meta?
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dead hard is a counterplay against killer camping the exit gate. Why are killer mains always bitching about survivors perks?
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Actually dead hard was made to become invincible to dodge a hit but as the games evolved people are like "im just gonna run to this pallet. Not gonna make it? Dead hard" outplayed. One dead hard can extend a chase as much as 40 seconds sometimes against good players. Against nurse and blight its like having a 3rd health state.
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What? Surely you could go to the other gate? Also, I regularly play survivor with my friends so I don’t know why you just assumed I’m a killer main.
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It's kinda funny how we have a perk that makes you litterally invincible against all damage.
And the op part about it is that it dashes you forward a meter. A meter distance is more powerfull then becoming untouchable at the push of a button.
Like if dead hard didn't have that dash nobody would use it.
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For Dead Hard there is only one side that I dont like which is people uses DH for dodge the traps. Yes sometimes it makes sense to player instantly dash to a point to stop getting hit but traps?!! I mean why DH dodge the traps. In logical way you are stepping the trap but traps are not worked. If they should fix it I would be grateful for that perk.
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why are you dodging hits with dead hard
ofc you're gonna be exhausted on the ground. that's not how you use dead hard.
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I’ve never heard someone seriously talk about “camping the exit gate”.
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Dead Hard is literally a single player game ability that got put into a multiplayer game.
By far the most un-fun perk in the entire game imo.
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Lithe, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Head On... all require to simply slot them in your loadout in order to “activate” them. Dead Hard is the only perk which actually requires you to be injured in order to be able to use it. So I’d argue that those perks have little to no condition to use them.
Should Dead Hard work after vaulting a window? Perhaps entering a locker, Or you can drop down from a great height and that will activate it. Sounds kind of silly doesn’t it?
I get that Dead Hard seems annoying to you. Everything you said is very much in line with other comments that have been brought up on here before, I just can’t get behind something being “annoying” and that being the reason for why it is flawed design.
The game revolves around chases because survivors don’t come with weapons or pistols to defend themselves with. So it makes sense to have a perk like Dead Hard to dodge a hit. It’s a perk, that’s how perks work in most games. You slot it, you gain an advantage over those who do not have it.
Literally the same could be said about every other exhaustion perk. Because DH doesn’t apply to every single situation you are presented with. There are often times I wish I had Sprint Burst because I needed more distance or when I went into a locker and the killer walked right by it and I could have bought myself more time by stunning them. Etc.
Annoying is subjective, because I would much rather be dealing with DH than Sprint Burst ANY day of the week.
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I'm personally opposite of this, and feel it would be better if the distance gained from Dead Hard only applied if the game detected an incoming hit was dodged. That way it couldn't be used purely for distance, but would actually require the Survivor to make a read and dodge a hit.
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Every time there's a dead hard discussion, someone sugests to "just bait it out"... You cant bait out dead hard for distance.
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You think DH for distance is bad because you believe the survivor would of played the same without it.
IMO, Sprint burst is worse. Complain about iframes? Sprint burst is like one big iframe window. Gen in the open? No problem, just Sprint burst away to the nearest jungle gym.
At least you get into a chase with DH users. A lot of SB players will jet off at the slightest hint of a heartbeat. Really annoying with large maps.
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imo the Exhaustion status effect needs to be looked over, not just the perks
The idea behind exhaustion perks is "Powerful perk but can't be used often" but some of the perks kinda are just..well extremely powerful, Dead Hard being among them
While yes this seems super killer-mainy of me but I do have some issues with the perk, is it meant for being a dodge to avoid a hit or is it meant for distance? cause if its distance why does it have I-frames? if its meant for a dodge then why is it so restrictive?
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Dead Hard in the eyes of BHVR: used to dodge a hit - can be baited, can cause "exhausted on the ground" thanks to servers
Dead Hard in reality: on-demand sprint for distance - nothing you can do about it most of the time
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jUsT bAiT iT oUt 5HeAD
Yeah I can really bAiT it out when it's used for distance, solid counterplay and nothing the killer can do.
There's a reason why there's 3-4 DH per game, it's a stupidly strong perk with zero thought from one side with no counter play for the other.
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You know that doesn't work when they use it for distance right?
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lithe requires you to use a window or pallet, can potentially be wasted if you are not careful.
sprint burst requires you to walk to not waste it.
balanced requires a drop, which some maps don't even have.
head on requires 3 seconds of being inside a locker. there's almost no way of actually using it inside a chase, which is why it's a meme perk.
dead hard requires you to be injured... oh no... that's so hard to do... you never get injured in the game... and the meta totally isn't to stay injured all game because healing wastes time...
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Because unlike killer perks, survivor perks can be stacked on four survivors, used multiple times by one person, and reward survivors for playing badly (for the most part).
Also, I am pretty sure dead hard is used for much better things than just a killer camping one of two exit gates.
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SB is painfully strong on the larger maps, but I think it is less worse than DH. The reason being that SB is not solely used just for running away from the killer unless the survivor is still new. SB can be used to run to generators, hooked survivors, or travel across the map faster. It is actually a pretty useful thing when you are slacking on gens. So if a survivor is using the perk effectively, they will most likely never use it in a chase more than once or maybe twice unless they are trying to.
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If dead hard is trash, then why do most survivor players run the perk?
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But then it would still completely screw half the killers.
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I'm a sucker for mechanics that involve some skill and the ability to read the opponent. Reading incoming attacks and dodging them revs my engine.
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Since when is vaulting a window, dropping from a great height hard?
Seriously...? That's the best you come up with? Don't worry we'll start advocating for a vault so DH activates, I'll get right on it. lmao
Yes being injured is a big disadvantage considering the other perks are able to be used WHILE remaining healthy. So while you may think it is an 'easy' requirement, it is still a condition. Being injured is far worse than being healthy.
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You have it mistaken. All other Exhaustion perks involve setup and management, or in other words effort on the survivor's part. Objectively, Sprint Burst is the best exhaustion perk. But Dead Hard is preferred over Sprint Burst because it can be used on command and you don't have to manage the exhaustion.
Lithe involves setup as you may not be in an area where there's a vault, or there are situations where you may want to save it. Also as far as I'm aware, you get the least Distance with Lithe compared to other Exhaustion perks that give you Haste. It's because Lithe activates as soon as the vaulting animation begins, rather than ends. It's not necessarily that much, but you still get less distance overall.
Head On is...Head On.
Sprint Burst involves a lot of time management of the exhaustion metre. When to walk, when to run, when to 99% your Sprint Burst. It's not as easy as it looks to do effectively.
Dead Hard can be used in any instance and all you have to do is press E to do it. It involves no effort to maintain or any thought to setup. It only involves pressing E for a third health state.
There is no arguing about whether the other exhaustion perks have "little to no condition" to use them. They objectively have more requirements and are more difficult to use than Dead Hard and they're generally weaker than Dead Hard. Why do you think you see Dead Hard in every red rank game?
edit: oops forgot Balanced Landing. Well that's simple: involves an elevated platform, many maps don't have one, and you are often not even near one on any maps. It's a huge gamble as to whether or not you load into a realm and you're able to use the perk to begin with.
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"Dead Hard can be used in any instance and all you have to do is press E to do it. It involves no effort to maintain or any thought to setup. It only involves pressing E for a third health state."
Wrong. Dead Hard still requires some type of thought behind it unless you want to go immediately down. That's why you see people using it meanwhile they run into nothingness and go down unless the killer swings and doesn't bait it. . The distance you gain from the dash isn't enough to save you in an open area or an unsafe area.
The fact that you can use all other perks while remaining healthy makes the other perks far more annoying to go against.
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Have you seen Survivor perks? Most of them are complete poop. Not that DH is bad. But I mean... Killer mains not going to be happy till Deja Vu is meta cause everything else does nothing?
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The only exhaustion perk that's going to save you when you're in "nothingness" (or a dead zone) is Sprint Burst. As I said, Sprint Burst, objectively, is the strongest exhaustion perk. But its balance comes from overriding the normal running function, meaning that the survivor has to manage when to walk, run, as well as manage their exhaustion metre. That all sounds easy but even with Fixated, walking around to things is slow as #########. You are going to have to run quite often around the map to do objectives, hence the balance coming on the survivor's end to manage the perk in order to use it.
There is no management for Dead Hard. You get rewarded for being injured and you have a free third health state. Even then, you can make iframes avoid a hit if you know what you're doing with Dead Hard, even in a dead zone. But the point about Dead Hard is that it's extremely unfair to have a perk where you won a chase, but someone pressed E to outplay you. Every other perk involves some sort of setup in order to use, Dead Hard involves pressing E.
Also, the fact that Dead Hard also includes i-frames makes it even stronger. I can Dead Hard over killer powers, such as Hag Traps. Pyramid Head's power, Trapper's traps, and so forth. I can Dead Hard into things when a killer is swinging at me (or even at the killer) to make them whiff, and get a tiny bit of distance to make it something nearby if it's that close, like a pallet. The fact that Dead Hard has actual invincibility is disgusting. I can Dead Hard in the same direction as Punishment of the Damned and not get hit if I time it right. That should not even be a thing in this game. If I were to use Lithe, Balanced Landing, or Sprint Burst in the same direction as Punishment of the Damned, I would get hit 100% of the time. Hell, if I were to walk into it and try to get over it with the aforementioned exhaustion perks, I'd get hit. With Dead Hard, I can press E in the same direction as, or to get across from Punishment Of The Damned and not get hit. That's unfair.
Whether or not you think other perks are more annoying is subjective, but it's quite very obvious Dead Hard is a lot stronger than what you want to admit it as, hence why it's the most ran exhaustion perk in red ranks, and probably in general (Sprint Burst, particularly in higher-numbered ranks would give it a run for its money though).
If other perks were as strong as you say they are, why aren't they ran more often? You see survivors running meta builds all the time but for some reason they want to run weaker exhaustion perks, arguably one of the most important type of perks to include in a meta build? Like why is the meta not DS/Unbreakable/Soul Guard/Lithe? Or Head On? Or Balanced Landing? The meta has always been minimum: DS/Unbreakable/DH. The only other Exhaustion perk that can be traded for Dead Hard is Sprint Burst.
What you're saying makes zero sense and isn't reflective of the actual state of the game.
A good suggestion for balancing Dead Hard that I heard about was that it should be the same as it is now, but you cannot vault or drop a pallet for multiple seconds. I heard 5, that sounds maybe a bit too extreme. I'd say 3 personally.
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Yeah because people don't go idle in this game AT ALL.... meanwhile you can recover your exhaustion by doing a gen, doing a totem... and guess what? Your SB is back! Phew, that was hard.
Who ever said that there is management for exhaustion perks? I've literally never heard that. You have conditions which are not meant to somehow challenge the survivors to get rewarded. Do you understand how perks work in games?
"If other perks were as strong as you say they are, why aren't they ran more often?"
Are you in red ranks my friend? Sprint Burst is heavily used in those ranks. I've also seen a lot of Head On users. Many people who run Dead Hard like to engage in chases, those who do not (because they either lack map knowledge or just want to stay healthy for as long as they can) won't. I much prefer to face the latter if I am being honest.
"What you're saying makes zero sense and isn't reflective of the actual state of the game."
Hilarious, cuz nah I am pretty sure if you read what I am saying it makes perfect sense. I am just not as biased as you are. The fact that you claim that Dead Hard is all you see as "meta" pretty much lets me know you aren't aware of what survivors are using as their exhaustion resources.
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Problematic!? Time to cancel!
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Oh no, now you're being theatrical, snarky, and now putting words in my mouth.
I never implied that survivors are never idle. That came out of your mind, take responsibility for it instead of trying to pretend that I said that.
My point was that it involves management of when to use Sprint Burst and when not to. You have multiple objectives to do as a survivor and subsequently you are going to have to run from point A to B to get things done efficiently, as even using Fixated isn't fast enough to do them when needed many times. There's also the fact that as killer, you can make the distance gained from Sprint Burst and Lithe (maybe not Balanced Landing because of how it's activated) less effective by moving in a certain direction. There is nothing you can do to shorten the distance of Dead Hard. The fact that Sprint Burst overrides the general running function is huge, meaning you have to manage its exhaustion to try your best to be able to use it in chase (or to avoid a chase) as you don't necessarily get to pick when the killer comes to you. Ideally, you manage it in a way where it's activated at all times, even when the killer is likely to come to you.
Whether or not you heard it is irrelevant. But you obviously need to manage the exhaustion more so particularly for Sprint Burst than Dead Hard.
I never said Sprint Burst was sparsely used in red ranks or that it was not common. Just said Dead Hard is used more in red ranks. Are you now lying about what I said because you're too dense to actually come up with rebuttals to what I said? And yea, I've been red ranks on both ends for quite a while now. What's your next lame attempt to try and discredit what I'm saying?
Oh my days what a loser you're being. I never said only Dead Hard is included in the meta in regards to Exhaustion perks; in fact, I said the opposite:
The meta has always been minimum: DS/Unbreakable/DH. The only other Exhaustion perk that can be traded for Dead Hard is Sprint Burst.
Imagine having to lie while arguing with someone because you're too thick to actually formulate rebuttals to defend your point. I'm out, I'm not arguing with a half-wit tyke.
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Perfectly explained the core issue with Dead hard. I had biggest problem with this because it requires no conditions to make it work. Most of other perks you have WORK otherwise they are useless perks. For example pop goes to weasel has many conditions, find and hook a survivor, then waste time finding the RIGHT generator to pop under certain timer. A lot of times i had no time to use pop on generator because i chose chase over it. Even more passive killer perks like rui, corrupt you have to put pressure on survivors otherwise they are useless. And you also can lose ruin first 20 seconds of the game.
Even zubatlel sarcastically says he got "outplayed" if he mind games a survivor in certain loop and they just press E to deadhard towards a window or a pallet, therefore restarting whole chase again. They are now moving on borrowed time, which is a deadhard, third hit for survivors. It's almost as bad as MoM once were.
But majority of survivor mains will make lies and excuses to say that other exhaustion perks like lithe or sprint burst are more oppressive.
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"I never implied that survivors are never idle. That came out of your mind, take responsibility for it instead of trying to pretend that I said that."
No you didn't. You implied that there is this "management" to Sprint Burst that it must be so hard to obtain. When you are (as I pointed out) LITERALLY idling for a majority of the game anyway and re-gaining your exhaustion back for doing nothing. Stop acting like you have to go through great lengths and extremes in order to get access to the perk.
I am not discrediting your point about management to Sprint Burst, I am simply pointing out that it does not apply to Dead Hard because all exhaustion perks function differently. I don't know why you don't understand the basic concept of how perks work.
"The meta has always been minimum: DS/Unbreakable/DH"
Again. That's your opinion.
Keep calling me a loser and whatever other "clever" names you come up with, at least I don't have to reach down to your vitriol in order to get my points across.
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What’d I ######### say? “Please be respectful if a debate breaks out”. Not seeing that in these comments. We’re all big boys and girls. We can have a discussion about video games without childish insults.
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"There is no management for Dead Hard. You get rewarded for being injured and you have a free third health state."
That part is and remains just not true.
A third health state is tanking a hit, stunning the killer for 2 seconds, and then sprint bursting away for 3. How long after injuring a survivor do you generally get the next chance to hit them, provided they don't potato out by running straight back into you, or cutting their sprint short with a pallet drop or vault?
Even a Dead Hard for distance (Which requires set-up, since you need to be charging straight towards a standing pallet) doesn't cover that much time. And if it's not a Dead Hard for distance, bait it out.
Not to mention that if they made it to a loop with Dead Hard for distance, they also would've made it if they'd triggered any of the other exhaustion perks.
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What a terrible explanation of so called problematic design of a perk that for me is just in a perfect for spot in the current state of the game/really important to mention/
"Dead hard is a perk that's designed to reward risky plays" Who told you that ? I love when people assume things cause the perk is used one way or another. The perk may allow that but I have never heard that it has been designed following that idea.
"Dead hard has counterplay but only sometimes". - I think it it safe to say that statement is true for nearly all of the perks in the game. If you had 100% chance to counterplay the perk every time that perk would be useless.
"If used for distance or if used against a Blight or Nurse in power then there's not a whole lot they can do" . And where is the problem with that ? Almost every exhausting perk can be used for distance. You can bait a nurse hit with Sprint Burst with the exact same success as dead hard. You just don't see that perk so often so u don't complain about it yet/which you probably will/. That is the idea of these perks - to prolong the chase. Dead hard is doing that by either dodging the hit /not working 90% of the time/ or by just getting distance to reach a pallet/window. When someone is using Sping burst he is using the perk to get distance from the killer to reach a more distant pallet/window. Balanced landing or the new stun perk - exactly the same logic - you create distance and so does DH.
"Even if you made a nice play, it's negated by the push of a button" . First - the fact you made a nice play, does not mean you cannot be countered. For you is just a button. For the survivors it is extreme timing of a button hit + hit/lag prediction. Sadly the perk has just one use while the "nice plays" for the killer have no cooldown. Second - again the same is true for every time a killer swing. The hit validation is so horrible in general that surivors are getting punished all the time "by the push of one button" even though "you made a nice play" and this is not changing ever. This is one good reason why perks like Dead Hard are needed. To minimize the effect of that unfairness which they can't really change on a technical level. They just cant !!
"I’ll get to the point, Dead hard is problematic in my opinion particularly because of the fact that it requires zero effort to get". So what now we complain that perks have effects in general ??? What is even this logic. I swear people on these forums are just using the most absurd arguments to justify their poor logic. Again most of the peks have effects that require zero effort to get. Ironically the dead hard required actually to be injured which does not really stand for "zero effort to get" so your entire statemnt lose its purpose. By your logic the game should never ever have perks that can in any way slow down the killer in their attempt to kill a survivor because .... Again - absurd ! For me your second half sound just like a rant how unfair is that you can't hit something the first time you tried and you get frustrated and how dare the devs make perks that allow that. It has to be a 100% killer domination. Well - no. There have to be playmaking potential for both sides. Again any of the other exhausting perks have the potential to prolong the chase or what you call it - punish the killer. Yes you are pusnished by ALL exhausting perks and so by many other u just don't realise it. But hey look at the bright side - maybe perks are ment to do that since survivors rely on them /no special powers like the killers/
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calm down
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They should give Dead-Hard a 3 sec distance boost like SB, Lithe and Balanced Landed if they remove the I-Frames.
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Why?
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Dead hard is the most op survivor perk in the game, when it works of course. Sometimes the server trick you. Anyone that says the contrary isn't being imparcial here.
That being said, it op for the dash distance it gives rather than the removal of your hitbox.
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Actually falling from a great height is hard as there are maps where you can't fall, and you can't use it everywhere. Or you stick with a side of a map where you can fall, and you're not productive, or you move and do objectives, but you won't be able every time to make it to a high ground. Balance is one of the best exhaustion perks, but maps design makes it the worst one (well no, there is Head on, but it is a meme perk).
But yeah, Lithe is easy as fck (excuse me, as ###) to use, Sprint burst yes and no as if you decide to use it while you're not in chase, you can start a chase without it, and if you decide to not use it, you're not that productive as you're slow (and that is why I'm a big fan of SB/Fixated/Vigil)
About DH, sure it is annoying, and for distance it is hell impossible to counter if you have to M1. As a Nurse main myself, I hate this perk, it's so damn frustrating. But even with that, I don't know what to think of Dead Hard :
Too powerful ? Too easy to use ? Is the fact that it absolutely counters 2-3 killers a problem ? Do we have to entirely rework it because it is a frustrating perk ? [.....]
I just don't know :/
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