In light of Small Game changes
Could we consider restoring some of Undying's power? I can understand the nerf that went through as a stop gap measure, but now with small game's ability to more accurately track totems as the match goes on, I feel finding more hard to discover totem locations is much more reasonable. This is also in consideration that Small Game is available to all survivors from the beginning, making its availability widespread. My proposed changes would be:
- Revert Undying to transferring hexes for so long as it is up/there are dull totems to transfer hexes to.
- Exchange Undying's aura reading for Thrill of the Hunt's noise explosion. I believe this change would more adamantly cement TotH as a totem protection perk that could compete with Undying while giving more aggressive killers another avenue to get into chases while also reducing the passive benefit of Undying.
- Totems that use counters are now reduced by 1 each time they are destroyed, allowing for survivors to make skillful hex destruction plays to save their team mates, providing a new avenue of skill expression for survivors. (e.g. reducing Devour Hope from 5 to 4, or 3 to 2.)
- (New) Totems that have been respawned by Undying immediately become dull when Undying is cleansed.
(ETA: Added a new change in response to concerns that the buff would be too much, one that I saw suggested by the community in the past that I thought fit well here.)
Comments
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Undying doesn't need to be reverted. Good survivors won't find much use outta Small Game and does basically nothing once all totems are gone. Can't see Small Game in the meta over other perks and SG will only really be useful for Inner Strength or NOED.
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@BenihimeWrath that's bad idea. Undying meta was boring and unhealthy for game. As a killer you should not fully rely on hex perks. Taking them is a risk which you should consider before setting up your build. I don't know if you are playing survivor aswell, but imagine looking for 5 totems on the maps like Midwich, Meatplant etc. where even good survivors have a problem to cleanse current undying & other hex perk.
Advice: Use Pop
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I don't really think we are talking about good survivors in the first place to be honest. It is my understanding that Undying was nerfed to deal with the most outrageous scenario of having 1 Hex totem be able to respawn 4 times. A good survivor team would just cleanse both simultaneously, or would already know all the totem spawn locations and thus fairly easily deal with finding all 4 totems necessary to render Undying worthless. Or just power through gens and not even worry about ruin/undying also rendering the perks worthless.
I believe the Small Game changes are meant to facilitate a way for new players to learn hex totem spawns, thus making the knowledge more freely available and indirectly nerfing hex totems. Also any thoughts to the thrill of the hunt changes? I was hoping it would provide an alternative to undying as well.
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I believe there is a difference between relying on hex perks and making them reliable. I also believe it is a fair compromise if killers must use a perk slot to protect their hexes its fair that survivors must use one perk slot to find them.
Any thoughts on the thrill of the hunt changes as well?
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Undying was a dark time and we shall never speak of it again.
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Hexes should NEVER protect Hexes. The killer knows its location. It is up to the killer to guard his game changing perks.
I am still calling for Thrill of the Hunt to be nerfed. It should not notify the killer when AND where someone is cleansing a hex. It should just audio que that someone is cleansing somewhere. Hence the name Thrill of the HUNT. I have suggested this because of killer's bringing FULL HEX LOADOUTS that are unwinnable.
Ruin, Haunted, Devour, and Thrill which makes it impossible to cleanse bc
1) our location is revealed with Thrill
2) breaking is slowed with Thrill
3) Haunted exposes us in out journey to cleanse
4) before we get to Ruin... Devour kicks in.
5) Ruin
I never want to hear how a killer needs a Hex to protect their totem. YOU BASTARDS KNOW WHERE IT IS
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This doesn't make any sense at all. Ruin naturally counters devour hope and thrill by causing survivors to look for totems. The build you describe uses all 5 totem spawns, which means assuming all 4 survivors rotate to find a hex totem, they'll find one immediately. Even assuming the best case scenario where 2 people are cleansing both haunted grounds totems and you are left with ruin or devour hope or thrill, a killer simply cannot be at all places at once even when they are notified by thrill, its physically impossible. They'll immediately be down at least 3 perks, with possible haunted grounds value for that trade.
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Hexes like Ruin and Devour Hope can shatter games. In general play, if the killer gets a hook in before Ruin is found, it's going to require some miracle play by the survivors to pull off a win. Undying is a huge threat right now in that regard, and literally tripling its power is an extremely excessive buff as a supposed counterweight to Small Game's rework. Small Game also already got nerfed on the side, anyway, since it lost the ability to counter Freddy, Trapper, and most importantly: Hag. All that makes Small Game a worse pick, not a better one.
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So let me get this straight, Small Game gets nerfed hard and so now killer totem perks need a buff? I am confused.
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Cleansing both at once is a rare scenario that only happens in a super coordinated SWF that are both not being pressured and working totems at the exact same time.
Even with a good team, it does take quite a while to eliminate every single totem spawn, especially if they aren't SWF. I don't think Hexes need to respawn multiple times. They've been good enough before, Undying gave it more. Killers can't have their cake and eat it when it comes to totems. A already strong risk-reward perk that was well enough before Undying came around should not be able to respawn 5 times, regardless of whether it takes up a perk slot. Replacing a Hex just once is strong enough for an additional perk slot. It's basically having two of the same Hex on at once. 4 times is overkill.
As for Thrill, I say it's overloaded here. Yeah, the nerfed Undying secondary effect is fairly underwhelming, but 2 totems and always knowing when a survivor is on could make totems nigh-uncleansable, and it's the same reason they tuned down the previous effect. I'd say just replace the effect with Retribution's dull totem effect, but it should work on all Hexes as well, and Retribution would have Undying's aura reading active on all totems, including Hexes as well.
(But also, I wouldn't mind if killers had access to an additional dull totem to utilize... but would be odd to balance.)
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While the change can be viewed as a nerf I mostly just see it as them shifting Small Game's purpose to the side slightly to open room for a new perk that deals with traps. In changing how the hex meta works it would passively buff Small Game, being a very generic and generally easy perk to get ahold of and use. We also should consider the amount of hex perks that were not very good with full powered Undying, let alone the cliff they have fallen off of with its nerf. While Ruin and Devour Hope are a concern, they are not the only hex perks that exist.
Well its not exactly a common occurrence I would not say its as rare as you seem to think. By sheer happenstance of fate totems can be cleansed back to back fairly often. Correct me if I am wrong, but Undying was originally meant to band-aid the fact that totem spawns are (and continue to be) incredibly poor. An experiment that unfortunately went out of control, visibly, however it was gutted without fixing the original underlying problem. Now if its a matter of the totem spawn algorithm being too problematic to hash out at the moment, it may be a necessary evil to shift more power back into Undying for the time being, similar to the stopgap gutting of it. Furthermore its not only about the perk investment in the loadout, which is a concern as killers naturally have 1/4th the amount of perk slots, but it is also a reward for the investment of time in the game. You know what a killer is not doing if they are protecting totems? I'm sure its not hard to guess. Now if the killer gets something out of it, that is the reward for their risk, and a mistake of the survivor team, not something to hold against the killer who is choosing to use the perk slots, and basically abandon defense of the generators.
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You missed it man. Completely off on your comment. THEY BRING FULL HEX LOADOUTS WITH A HEX THAT ALERTS WHEN AND WHERE YOU ARE CLEANSING.
So they slaughter you anytime you touch their hex. And if you do manage to cleanse, it triggers Haunted. But there's still ruin so you have to keep going. And if you try to do gens Devour activates. Then its back to cleansing. All during this time the Killer is getting notifications where you are cleansing.
I've been documenting my matches with these perks in another post. The killer KNOWS we HAVE to cleanse to get to ruin. SO they guard the TOTEMS with THRILL OF THE HUNT and a BACKUP of HAUNTED GROUNDS and DEVOUR. Do you not see how broken that is???? Are you that blind????
I WENT AGAINST THIS LOADOUT ON A HAG THAT ALSO TRAPPED THE TOTEMS! So she had traps AND THRILL.
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If a killer is defending their hex that means they aren't driving people off generators to get Ruin value. You don't have to cleanse Ruin at all, you can very easily just power through Ruin. Haunted only triggers if 1 of its 2 totems are cleansed, so if you cleanse thrill/ruin/devour it does nothing. Hexes are nearly vestigial because of how little power they have.
I mean, I think thats just sort of how Hag plays, that sounds more like you need experience playing against Hag.
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