General Discussions
General Discussions
Survivors Have So Much Second Chance Perks
There is some survivors perks give them second chance. Make them escape from killer or hit. Do you think that is problem or not? Lets discuss about this.
Adrenaline
Borrowed Time
Dead Hard
Decisive Strike
Flip-Flop + Power Struggle Combo
Iron Will + New Lucky Break Combo
Mettle of Man
Soul Guard
Unbreakable
Also your teammates can give you second chance with some perks:
Saboteur + Breakout Combo
For the People
Comments
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I'm sorry, Mettle of Man?
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some of them have fair conditions to use, some not. Most problematic second chances are dead hard and iron will. Also adrenaline is devastating when stacked in SWF
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Yes? I am using it with purple med-kit. After 3 protection hits, it gives me second chance hit. And also i am giving escape time to my teammate. So yes sir.
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Nuke it
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Ok let's talk about it.
Adrenaline: it's fine it rewards survivors for completing their objectives and the survivor is player the rest of the game with 3 perks. Also it's completely dependent on the situation. If your being chased by the killer it helps but if your not it's not too useful. It's also countered by noed, and insta down killers.
Borrowed time: it's one of the only counters against camping and tunneling to a degree. It's fine. If your not tunneling or camping near the hook you should be fine ( I'm probably missing something about it thought)
Dead hard: I can agree its a bad second chance perks and need a rework to be more skill based ( after you fix it of course)
Decisive Strike: was nerfed and its fine as it as now.
Flip Flop and power struggle: it has so many counters and its very nich often times requiring a full build to make it work. I cannot believe your complaining about Flip Flop and power struggle.
Iron will and new lucky break; lucky break us definitely not coming. Its too strong and nearly everyone agrees it was over buffed. But iron will being a second chance perk? That's a really big stretch and I don't see how.
Mettle of man: it requires the survivor to play extremely reckless to get a decent effect. If you manage to put in the work to get Mettle of Man to activate then you deserve it. It's a now balanced second chance perks. If you would even call it that. I don't think you shouldn't complain about it.
Soul guard: it's getting nerfed so it's not a problematic perk. Yeah its second chance but it's fine
Unbreakable: about the same reasoning for soul guard. It's a fine second chance perk.
The team second chance: I think its unreasonable to complain about Survivors team second chance. Often times the survivors have to play reckless I'm order to get the team second chance and they earned it by working as a team. Are survivors not allowed to work as a team? Be reasonable.
Most of the complaints about these perks are unreasonable since they are mostly balanced. The only problematic second chance perk here in this list is dead hard. Everything else is mostly fine.
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75% of these perks require a lot of work on the survivor side to get use out of. If you think Mettle of Man is an issue then this has to be bait.
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say it louder for the people in the back
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A lot of these perks are only valuable if the killer plays unfair. If you don't slug, there's no value in UB, if you don't tunnel there's no value to DS.
Adrenaline can be made lose its value through Thana (not in all cases).
Still, the entire perk pool needs a severe overhaul.
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I dont think Mettle of Man is issue. It is actually fair perk second chance perk. You are protecting your teammates and rewarding for this. I just wrote all second chance perks.
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My problem with second-chance perks is when they're stacked together on multiple survivors.
DS/UB/BT on everyone basically means you can't tunnel or slug and are forced into the 12 hook game, which is... good luck if you're not Nurse/Spirit against competent survivors in that scenario.
DH? Yeah this perk needs to die. There's nothing the killer can do... if used for distance, it removes making mistakes and actually incentives being greedy and inefficient with loops because E will save you.
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I dont see an issue with Die hard. Since you can only use it while injured and all it does is let you avoid a down.
The problem with DH i see is that some clueless killers just make bad decisions and choices if they encounter someone with the perk.
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The issue isn't that they're overpowered, its that there are just so damn many of them. And because they benefit all of the survivors, since losing a teammate is a big deal. And they stack. And each one takes up only 1/16 of the survivors' total perk slots.
There are like, three or four second chance perks for killer, total. And each one takes up a quarter of the killer's total perk slots.
Every single survivor can bring multiple second chances, and even if they only work once, the killer has to burn through every single second chance that the survivors have.
Even worse is that all killers other than really good Nurses have to rely heavily on survivor mistakes in order to do pretty much anything. Having to burn through the survivors' eight second chances just to get to the basekit second chances, all the while with a countdown to your defeat ticking away at a random rate, and being unable to progress your objective unless the survivors screw up.
tldr: second chances are the meta for a reason, and they make the killer's life a lot more stressful than almost any other kind of perk.
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And killers have plenty of "double chance" perks, aka various ways of getting instadowns.
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The game needs second chance perks. Pallets and loops aren't unlimited. Resources are finite. Killers need perks and survivors need them too. At least they can only run 1 exhaustion perk really.
Dead hard is dodgy at activating and isn't that easy to use well.
If maps were absolutely perfectly balanced and everyone could play optimally then sure get rid of exhaustion perks but that basically never happens.
Blood lust exists and most loops aren't god loops so unfortunately second chance perks need to exist. Fortunately at least most solo survivors in general don't know how to use their exhaustion perks that well!
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the only second chance perk I have in issue with is dead hard because all you have to do is press a button and you gain distance. I used to use it a lot but not as much because it doesn't work well so I switched to other exhaustion perks.
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You can't compare stuff like Mettle of Man, Soul Guard, and Flip Flop to perks like NOED, Ruin + Undying (literally resets gens to 0 with very little pressure), and Devour Hope. There are some legitimately good second chance perks you listed but the ones that are actually worth using are about the same as the amount of killer ones.
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Surprised you didn't mention Deliverance
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There's quite a few up there that are a stretch and I'd remove.
However in general yes, the second chance perks have been ridiculously out of control for years. Very unhealthy for the game.
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Honestly the only powerful second chance perks are BT, DH and unbreakable. This are the only perks that can really annoy you as a killer because it can completely change the tides in a very unfair way. DH for distance can't be deal with and BT in endgame is a free "get out of jail card", while unbreakable can turn a 4k in 4 escapes with little effort. This perks are deadly in swf hands.
This perks are also part of the meta, a meta that hasn't changed for 3 years. Meanwhile the killer meta was changed a lot of times. The favoritism clearly shows here. And this annoys me not only from the killer pov but also from the survivor pov, because not changing the meta make survivor play boring.
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I've played with some of these perks and still had my ass handed to me, which tells me that like most perks it still boils down to experience and skill (I'm new, so I don't have loads of either yet).
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Are...are you complaining about mettle of man? A perk so bad that it requires you to throw the game to use?
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Please read comments sir before judge people. I said i wrote all second chance perks. That does not mean iam complaining about MoM. And i already wrote MoM is good and fair perk.
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MoM is horrible wdym you have to throw the game for it to work, and also i’m not gonna delve into the comments to look for something you didn’t post originally
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I also didnt complain about MoM on post. I just listed them all and wanted discuss about all of them. And if you are not reading then dont judge people, good day sir. See you later.
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I’m not judging? I literally said that MoM isn’t a powerful perk (or really strong enough to be listed along with the other second chance perks due to requirements) I immediately assumed it was a complaint post due to how like every person in the community complains about second chance perks, see ya later
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Well i wrote this: "There is some survivors perks give them second chance. Make them escape from killer or hit. Do you think that is problem or not? Lets discuss about this."
That is not complain, just discuss. MoM is strong or not, gives you second chance when you complete goal. That is why it is on list. Have a good day
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Adrenaline - only useful at the end of the match and only under specific conditions. The speed boost, if you're not being chased, probably isn't going to do a whole lot and if you're already healed, then you've wasted a perk slot. It's mostly a tool for good loopers who are good at keeping aggro and keeping up. You play with 3 perks until end game. Hard counter: Instadown Killers/Addons/Perks.
Borrowed Time - Is not a 'second chance perk' imo as it does not apply to the person with the perk. Yes, the person to whom it is applied can take a hit, and that is a common strat. However, it is the only effective perk survs have against campers. There should be a counter to camping. (Except Bubba who can eat through BT and multiple survs.) And it can be played around except for certain circumstances in ECG. Hard counter: Not being near the hook/Bubba/Not insta slashing
Dead Hard - not a second chance IMO. It's an exhaustion perk. Meaning, it's going to be encountered once per chase in most cases and is very situational on it's use. Dead Hard in a DZ? You gained maybe a second or two. Dead Hard 'normally' - you may find yourself 'exhausted on the ground' more often than not. ALL exhaustion perks are meant to extend or discourage chases. DH falls into that uncomfortable territory for Killers of "I've won this, it's mine." Only to sometimes have that chase extended beyond or well beyond expectations. I've watched several damn good survs for a long time. They can all use DH in amazing ways, and they can all use it to try to eke out just a few more before they go down. Unless you want survs to just be driving dummies for Killers to hit, then survs need some unexpected abilities to make things more interesting. DH is the only exhaustion perk to fit that bill. (Disclaimer: I suck with DH, but I have seen streams of folks who can do good things with it and also end up DH exhausted on the ground.) DH fits a particular niche for survs too. WE have some control over it's activation. No other exhaustion perk grants that to the degree DH does. Hard Counter: Servers/distance =/= safety/exhaustion
Decisive Strike - Nerfed to an anti-tunnel perk. Literally can't do anything much except be in chase. Getting tunneled off the hook sucks big time. Give us some breathing room. Hard Counters: leave me alone for a bit/soft tunneling
Flip-Flop + Power Struggle Combo - Okay two perk slots for the chance of maybe dropping a pallet on a Killer blissfully walking through one and taking a stun. Assuming, of course, you have enough wiggle to make it happen. And y'know you're in a spot to make it count. That's a whole lot of 'ifs' way beyond the survs control to make a reality more than once in a match if even that. Hard counter: Don't walk through pallets/ don't go for hard slugging/ you're not entitled to a hook until the surv is on the hook.
Iron Will + New Lucky Break Combo - Iron Will is not a second chance perk. Not even when paired. If Killers can make survs louder, then yes, survs should have counter. That's also 2 perk slots for something that may or may not happen. New Lucky Break does seem to be OP, but I say seem in that it has yet to be fully tested "in the wild". If it is, the LB need a nerf. However, don't blame the devs for trying something. We want them to try things be it Killer and/ or Surv. Hard counter: probably needs a nerf NLB - leave iron will alone as long as stridor is a thing.
Mettle of Man - as a Killer you should pray survs are using MoM. The effect for the trade off is 'meh'. Hard counter: literally normal game play.
Unbreakable - If the Killer isn't slugging, it's literally a wasted perk slot. EOS. Hard counter: i get up once if you leave me too long, and that's it. I'm down to three perks.
Saboteur + Breakout Combo - do you realize how sub optimally survs have to play to make this work even once? It's a lot and generally not worth it unless in a coordinated group. Hard counter: Star struck, uncoordinated groups, offering for hooks closer together, anything not optimized SWF.
For the People - Is not a second chance perk. It's one surv transferring their health to another with the heavy restriction of being broken when the Killer is chasing someone else and not hooking who they downed. Killers are not guaranteed hooks until the flesh is on the hook. Hard counter: Don't slug so early and often.
Any snark aside, survs are literally only going to have second chance and general use perks as options. WE CANNOT TAKE KILLERS OUT OF THE GAME. But you can take us out of the game not only through perks, Killer choice, and strat, but also through pure game mechanics. Killer's literally don't need 'second chance perks' because there is nothing, game mechanics wise, that survs can do to boot Killers out of match.
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Flip-Flop+ Power Struggle is toally situational and not consistant at all in soloQ. I tried to use it for challenge, and I literally had to throw games for it in order to proc it!
Flip-Flop + Power Struggle does only work consistantly in a 4-man with everyone running it. And it will be VERY OBVIOUS from the start.
It's more of a memey build, likely getting all survivors killed in the end.
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Dead Hard is by far the worst. You did great and landed accurate blinks as nurse? E. Finally catching up to them as a slow killer on a strong jungle gym? E and back to the window they go. Such a crutch.
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Loving this definition of "second chance", I mean, in what world is the upcoming Iron Will + Lucky Break combo a "second chance"? It makes escaping a chase easier, so that's a second chance??? By that logic, there are a ton of perks that try to do the same thing and should be on the list... Oh, is it because unlike those perks, the combo isn't complete trash? Well no, that can't be it, because you put MoM on your list too.
Basically, like every other "second chances!!!" discussion ever had on this form, this is just aimless whining about perks actually being useful.
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If Unbreakable is turning a 4K into 4 escapes, that's not on the perk, that's on the killer going for a 4 slug and failing to down the UB survivors when they get back up.
And yes, the killer meta keeps changing, because killers get really effective perks. Take the last chapter: Crowd Control is solid, Starstruck is solid, No Way Out is probably his weakest and it's still 'okay'. Compare to Yun-Jin: Self-preservation has very stringent activation conditions and the pay-off is pretty limited. Fast Track can get you, at absolute maximum, 27% of a gen, which requires you to flat-out lose to achieve. Then there's Smash Hit, which could've been an option, if not for pallet stuns being hard to pull off, utterly unreliable, and now bugged out on top of everything else.
A lot of the strongest survivor perks are in the free characters. Dwight has Prove Thyself and Leader, Meg has Sprint Burst, Quick & Quiet, Adrenaline, Claudette has Botany, Jake has Iron Will, Nea has Urban Evasion, Bill has Unbreakable and Borrowed Time, David has Dead Hard and WGLF.
Killers keep getting new perks that are actually valuable. They have reasonable activation conditions and strong pay-offs.
Survivors keep getting new perks that are absolutely terrible. They have really harsh activation conditions and very little pay-off.
I think, out of the last five survivors, the only good perks are Soul Guard and Deception. Both of which are still risky and difficult plays.
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With DS being nerfed, IMO the only problematic perks left are Dead Hard and BT:
Issues with DH:
- DH on the spot / into a wall to avoid a hit is stupid and shouldn't be a thing. The killer should only miss you bc you dashed forward in the right moment, not bc you got invincialbe for a sec.
- E-to-outplay situations, where survs screw up badly and/or killer predicts right, but surv is saved with a press of a button (real 'second-chance' here). Since these situations often evolve around vaults, why not disable DH after a vault for like a second?
- DH for distance to extend a chase, but I've no idea how to mitigate that without crippling the "fair use" of the perk.
Issues with BT:
- Aggressive saves, unhooking the instant the killer turned their back to the hooked, just bc you know BT will save you. That playstyle needs to be more dangerous, imo. How about, if the unhooker unhooks someone within 10 secs of the other being hooked, they get automatically exposed (base kit). Otherwise, since DS no longer saves you after the unhook, it might no longer be such an issue.
- Bodyblock with BT, could be prevented by making the affected loose collision while the timer runs down. That would even work against a killer body blocking a surv with BT to wait out the timer.
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