The problem with Spirit and the reason she's so strong
Everyone who has played the game for awhile and is aware of the game as a whole, knows that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game. The ability to surpass every loop in the game (pallets, obstacles, windows etc.) is unbeatable. However, the majority of players still have more problem with Spirit than Nurse, and report losing the most games versus Spirit. Why, I wondered for long, and after buying and trying her out, I think I know the answer.
See, Nurse is a very peculiar killer. Her incredibly high learning curve makes games versus her go either completely wrong or completely right, as I've played both the easiest and the hardest games as a survivor versus a Nurse indeed. Spirit on the other hand, although listed as a hard killer, doesn't seem to work this way, players start being good at her at the very moment they start playing her. And I though for myself, how is that possible, if her ability makes her completely unable to see survivors, suggesting a high learning curve and skill ceiling... well, apparently not.
See, hearing survivors isn't hard. Especially with Stridor. It isn't something which you need to specifically practice in DbD itself to be good at, if you have good hearing in general (and good headphones), you're ready to go. So the skillful aspect of her ability isn't really related to DbD as much as it is related to the person and their equipment in general. What makes her so crazy though, is that her incredible speed while in her power makes her catch survivors in no time after getting a hit, to the point where you don't even need to hit them immediately after going out of your ability, you can just use it to close the distance and you're still ready to go and slay chasing normally.
And here comes the actual problem.
There are many killers in the game, that can close distance with survivors using their power, and their power makes them incredible for 1v1 chase-oriented lethality. But they all share one thing in common: the closing of the distance is followed by a fatigue state, which can hurt you if you don't manage to use your ability correctly and hit, hence adding a skill ceiling.
Nurse can close distance very quickly, but she suffers a fatigue which can punish her if she misses her attacks.
Blight can close distance very quickly, but he suffers a fatigue if he doesn't hit or misses which punishes him.
Oni can close distance very quickly, but suffers an animation cooldown if he misses his attack.
Billy can close distance very quickly, but suffers a cooldown if he doesn't hit and even a bigger one if he bumps into an obstance.
Legion can close distance very quickly, but suffers a fatigue if he misses his attack or doesn't hit and cannot use his ability to put them into a dying state.
Wraith can close distance very quickly, but cannot attack immediately and has to uncloak, giving survivors enough time to reposition and reach a loop.
Spirit however, is the ONLY killer in the game, that doesn't have to go through any fatigue or cooldown after using her ability to close distance quickly. There are no side-effects to not directly hitting survivors after closing the distance with your ability, you do not get punished with a fatigue if you miss your attack after going out of phase, she can immediately continue the chase suffering only the basic missed attack cooldown shared by all killers, and again, she doesn't even need to attack immediately after going out of phase, she can just close the distance in no time and then chase them normally, something other killers can only dream of.
And this is exactly why, Spirit, although listed as hard killer, actually has much less of a skill ceiling than the rest of the other chase-oriented killers, there are absolutely no repercussions of not being perfect with her. Hence why, regardless of rank, Spirit performs amazing all around. If her ability required you to hit survivors going out of it, and suffer a cooldown afterwards if you miss the attack, the whole picture would be different, she would still be very strong, but her skill ceiling would actually be high and require players to really put the effort to master her her phase. On top of that, Spirit is possibly the only killer in the game, that can just remain still in front of a dropped pallet, and still get a hit or even a grab out of survivor mistakes, just for the sole reason she's a Spirit.
I do, legit believe, that the new Lucky Break buff is to serve as an indirect nerf to Spirit, because quite frankly, that may be the only real counter to her that currently exists.
Comments
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Dang, I never actually thought about this before, it makes much more sense now that I think about it although I'm kind of worried that if they do nerf the spirit and add a fatigue that she'll become too similar to the other killers that can catch up quickly, more specifically Blight.
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Huh, this is really well written. Thanks for writing this, well done. I agree with you btw
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Nah, you can see Blight and counterplay/mindgame accordingly based on what he's doing. With spirit, there's still no real mindgame you can do since she lacks feedback.
OP, I have to agree that this is pretty on point and something I did kind of notice with missed hits; it's frustrating to have her mess up and still get to catch up and hit you anyway about a second later. This is actually a common theme with quite a few of the more recent killers. Twins, Slinger and Executioner all have this issue of not being punished for their mistakes all that much, if at all.
I do think an increased missed attack cooldown on phasing should be looked into, however I don't think that a cooldown should be applied in the case of her not swinging, as that would be too punishing, imo. Especially if they actually added feedback to her power usage, which the game oh so desperately needs.
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I dont think Spirit should be nerfed with fatigue as it would make her Legion with stealth or Blight without bounces. In my opinion Spirit should be nerfed around her ability to track, get tracked and overall ability to proxy camp. Dont know how they can achieve this but im not the one getting paid to think of solutions.
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As a former Spirit main, this is a well written post and I agree with all of it. I stopped maining her because of the fact she’s too easy and has no counters except for perks.
I think what they should do with her is to give her inconsistent directional audio and a small stun when coming out of phase. I think the stun should be longer for the Spirit if she lunges out of her power. Buffing her lunge distance would be a good buff to compensate imo. Add ons certainly need a rework as well like MDR as it is too strong, and the bonsai and blossom that are way too useless.
If she was given something like this then I probably would consider maining her again because I’ve always loved her as a character and I still do. I just can’t main her right now though.
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That, along with the issue of no counterplay. I still think she can be changed a bit to be more fun for both sides, we just have to wait for BHVR to address this mistake which will never happen.
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Spirits problem is that people refuse to learn, adapt or try doing anything.
They fail once or twice and just give up any time they face spirit again.
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The problem is that Spirits phasing power is designed to be used in short bursts. A Fatigue state after exiting every phase would enforce a meta of only using an entire phase charge all at once. So it's hard to see how to fit a fatigue state into this power.
One possibility could be if you do deplete the entire gauge and don't leave something left over, then you go into a fatigue state for a few seconds. This would encourage using her power sparingly.
So kinda like an overheat mechanic that Billy/Bubba have.
If the entire spirit gauge is depleted, you go into a hindered state where you have to land a hit within... 5 seconds. If you fail to hit within those 5 seconds, you get stunned for 5 seconds.
While this would raise her skill ceiling a little... I doubt it would be that hard to just keep an eye on and save a smidge of the phase gauge.
The other issue is that phasing is often used merely for crossing the map. While not usually an optimal use of her power, it's a viable use of her power, and this would limit that function.
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Spirit has no consistent counterplay. Play against her in red/purple ranks in solo queue.
Key word: Consistent, because I'm not saying she doesn't have counterplay.
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I think the main issue with her and where all the overpoweredness comes from, is that survivors literally have no way to escape her while she's in her power, especially if out in the open, due to the sole reason that they cannot see her... like.. at all. And that's what makes it incredibly frustrating to play against her. If you run, she'll catch you, if you double back, she'll hear you, if you lock in place... well... same stuff. Whatever you do really, is going to result in her catching up to you, and there's absolutely no counterplay to it, except of course, the new lucky break coming soon, which will actually help, since she'll have to guess which way you went running exactly.
But I believe one good nerf that could actually keep her strengths entirely, but also let survivors have a little more options to counterplay, is if she's at least somewhat visible while phasing. Sorta like how Wraith is invisible indeed from a distance, but you have an idea where he is when he's close to you, similar thing to the Spirit would be good as well. In her current state, everything comes down to guessing, if you're at a window, you have no way of knowing if she's phasing and coming at you from the other side, or if she's staying still in front of the window and waiting for you to fall for it. Which leaves the state of playing versus (and also, as) the Spirit up to guessing and luck, there's a joke that the only way to counter a spirit is to toss a coin and hope it will fall on the correct side..
Now of course, adding a Nurse-like fatigue after coming out of phase will be too punishing for her, because she's NOT a nurse. She cannot go past all the obstacles in the game like Nurse, and ignore all loops. And it that sense of course, Nurse's fatigue makes sense, while Spirit fatigue does not. At least not in the same way. Adding a fatigue if she attacks and misses during phasing is still not sufficient, because again, you can just cancel the phase and attack 1 second after, instead of during it, which would just change the way Spirit's play, but not add a counterplay for survivors.
See that's the problem, her whole design is flawed, that it's really hard to come up with a reasonable change really, one small adjustment can turn her into a completely useless killer, and the majority of potential "nerfs" will not be actual nerfs at all, once Spirits get used to play around them.
I'm thinking about adding a more distinguishable sound cue when she phases, so you have an idea if she's exactly near you and can also tell if she's moving or staying still? Like for example a sound cue that will let you know if she's indeed phasing towards you, or faking it and not moving at all? I guess that would make it a little more fair without completely breaking her... idk.. what do you guys think
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yeah, M1 killers` experience feels nice, doesn't it?
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Learn and adapt to what? Flipping a coin on the right side?
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Idk, maybe actually start putting any mind into reading spirit's moves instead of turning off your brain to make it a coin toss.
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M1 killers should be buffed. I'm not suggesting otherwise. That's the whole problem with DbD balance right now, that you have a few killers who are overpowered to make up for the rest which are completely useless in red ranks, instead of all killers being balanced and playable in every scenario. There are very few killers who are ACTUALLY balanced and fair for both sides, such as Plague for example, where the outcome of the match actually comes down to who played better, the killer or the survivors. The majority of times in DbD right now, especially in red ranks, the outcome of the match is decided at the lobby when you select which killer you play as. I'm always certain when playing Spirit that I'm going to get a 3k at the very least, and I'm always certain when playing Clown that I'm going to struggle a lot during the game and basically pray that survivors make stupid mistakes.
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That's how most of this game works.
When you're looping, you keep running around while the killer gradually catches up. You then make a 50/50 choice as to whether you bait a vault, or commit to a vault, in order to extend the chase. If you choose wrong and the killer reads you correctly, then you get hit.
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How can you read Spirit's moves if you can't see her bro, lmao? You do realize it's a 50/50 even if you try to "read her moves". Like say you're at a dropped pallet, what exactly are you to read? You can either vault it and hope she's not faking, or stay where you are and hope she's not phasing, lol. And on top of that, if you vault or run away and she is phasing indeed, you'll get catch immediately, she'll hear your every move, while you don't know s**t.
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Nurse is an M1 killer that takes skill to play, but rewards you with power. Spirit rewards you with power nonetheless.
I bet you're rank 12 survivor and never played against a red rank Spirit in solo queue.
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NO THAT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING11!
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The mind games at tiles like T L walls and shack are guesses but it is equal fair guess for both sides. It gives both sides a chance to choose something based off their surroundings and the side that outplays the other gets rewarded. With Spirit, the guessing game is entirely in her favor because survivors have no information while the Spirit has all the information to work with. This video explains it better than me:
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nah, you lost the bet. Played against red ranks spirit and was able to keep up long enough for my team to do at least 1 gen.
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Lol so you got one gen done and your team got destroyed, got it.
/s
Also, you only summarized one game. But did you win that one?
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The difference is, with regular killers, actually winning the mindgame rewards you and you can continue to run around that loop for long enough, before they catch up, if you play correctly. With Spirit you have to win a mindgame consistently and predict correctly every single time to have a chance to avoid getting hit at a loop. You read correctly that she's phasing and you vault the pallet, great, she heard you vault it, she's coming at you now and she's fast. You now have the option of either slow vaulting again so she's at the wrong side (however risking getting grabbed in the process), or remain where you are and hope she'll double back. In every single scenario of mindgaming versus spirit, is a 50/50 and comes down to luck, and who actually wins the mindgame. Whilst with other killers, you can continue to loop them at the same pallet for ages, because you can quite literally see what they're doing and decide your next action based on that. With Spirit, it's always down to guessing.
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Just because you can't see what she's doing, doesn't mean she isn't also making an equal 50/50 choice.
While you're stood there wondering whether or not she's phasing or faking, she's already committed to one or the other. If you vault, and it turns out she was phasing to your side, you've won that coin toss.
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nah, we actually got 2 escapes that game.
In other games I was able to run from spirits, including stridor spirits long enough for them to stop chasing me. In any case, I was actually trying to do anything instead of giving up instantly.
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I would love to see you 1v1 a good Spirit in a KYF.
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The Spirit doesn’t have to guess at all. All she has to do is stand still and wait for the survivor to do something and if they vault back then they fall for the “2000 IQ hyper genius mind game” and if they run away, all she has to do is phase after them. It’s really not that hard to comprehend why Spirit is so unfun to play against.
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The difference is that she knows your moves, you don't know hers. If she's faking it, she sees everything you do, you don't have a slight idea whether she's phasing or not. If she's phasing, you can vault, but she will hear the vault and using her movement speed quickly hit you on the other side. And of course, if you decide to do a slow, silent vault, you're risking getting grabbed, something she gets on loops more so than any other killer.
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There is no mind game at shack. that is one of the safest tiles in the game.
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If you don’t know how to play it then yes. I’ve been able to mind game plenty of good survivors at shack.
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Shack is strong, but not unbeatable either. Even if a surv wastes you a lot of time in shack, you'll still eventually catch up. The pallet will eventually have to be dropped, you'll break it and the window will then get blocked. The safest loops in the game are the freaking houses in Haddonfield, lol. You can run around the killer there for ages.
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I agree, plus she has no counter play in my opinion, when she has strider trust me your gonna die. She needs a nerf but I hope they don’t nerf her to the ground.
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You can, though it's just a coin flip really. Still worth the mindgame attempt tho
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So, her gameplay is a lot closer to survivor than killer.
Got it.
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Honestly in my opinion, Spirit is actually balanced and fine as is. All of the aforementioned killers, save for nurse, have a movement of 4.6 m/s while spirit has 4.4 m/s. Some people think its not a big deal, but every point of speed does count. Because of this Spirit cant outright loop or chase survivors as well as everyone else with normal speed, which is why those killers suffer a cooldown or penalty when using their powers. Most other speed killers can injure, down, and or apply negative statuses, on multiple survivors in a short amount of time. Spirit doesn't inflict any special effects, or insta-down with her power. So giving her a fatigue or cooldown effect would be very harmful and ruin her efficiency.
Her biggest strength is the fact that using her power gives no warning or any animation to the survivors. Watching Spirit stop mid-chase and looping back on yourself, only to realize she just stood still is very hard to predict in a split second. This alone gives Spirit opportunities no other killer can ever have, which helps her stand out.
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There are very few tiles in the game where you are save from a spirit (some godpallets for example).
People write that you can mindgame a spirit: You don't know during a chase if the spirit uses her power (no audio/visual cue if you are in the terror radius) The spirit on the other hand gets scratch marks, she hears footsteps, breathing,she sees the grass moving, you can see particles from a vault if you look closly).
Even against a nurse, as a survivor, you see which direction she looks, you get a audio cue when she starts charging her power and for how long, so you get information to use for mindgames (double backing, locker jukes etc). You get 0 information against spirit. Yes you can mindgame a spirit, but it is a pure guess, the mindgame is completly in the spirits favor and you get barely any reward.
I think that the original post is very well thought out and highlights that the spirit has a big advantage in her mobility against other killers.
I think she needs some form of audio or visual cue when she uses her power during chase, so that attentive survivors could react to those cues.
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Biggest complaint I've seen with Spirit is the lack of information. When she phases being the loudest one.
But we all know a phase indicator won't stop the complaints. It's just a low hanging fruit. The next step is a clear path indicating where she is moving. Killer scratchmarks if you will.
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Even against a nurse, as a survivor, you see which direction she looks, you get a audio cue when she starts charging her power and for how long, so you get information to use for mindgames (double backing, locker jukes etc).
👍
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I never thought of it that way, makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.
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She needs a visual indicator as to when she is phasing
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Spirit is fine. Leave her alone. Thanks!
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How exactly am I supposed to read the Spirit if I can’t see ######### she’s doing? I can’t adapt to the Spirit I play against anyway because I find myself dead in 10 seconds and I have no time to even adapt to how she plays.
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"Equal fair guesses" I'm sorry to say this but this is completely and totally false, Survivors can position themselves at corners and use cracks in windows like at shack to completely remove counterplay for the Killer. ANY tactic that a M1 Killer can try can be shutdown by a good Survivor. It's the equivalent of the Spirit power since there is no counterplay for the Killer. Hiding red glow is worthless if the Survivor takes advantage of their third person camera to see around walls.
And, yet AGAIN, another person using a Jund video for their opinions. Ugh.
Quick question: Does Jund actually try to argue in this video that 50/50 coinflips at vaults is somehow okay while Spirit isn't?
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You can guess based off of outside information. Killers have objectives, you can typically guess whether a Spirit will go back to a gen or hook or not based off of thinking what a Killer's current priority would be.
As for chases, there are options that you can take that cover several options. You do not "need" visible information like other Killers, this is why you are told to adapt. Spirit does not work like other Killers, you need to predict the Spirit's next move and choose options that negate multiple options for the Spirit.
You're at a T and L wall? Wanna know something that can be effective? Walking to the other end of the OTHER loop. Spirits will typically expect to you to stay at a loop by walking around it or walking away from the loop.
You're used to using your eyes and ears, you need to use your mind against Spirit, eyes and ears come second.
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That's not necessarily a bad thing though. I like the spirit both playing and versing her simply because she's scary.
I don't know where she is, but I know my mindgames and I know where I want to run and I hope to choose right.
With the majority of other killers in the game predicting them and avoiding them is so easy that its a no brainer. Extending chases really isn't that hard.
The fear of the unknown when facing spirit makes her one of the scariest killers to face, even when she's not in the hands of a super player.
Its kind of like jump scare Myers, on the right map there is no warning and it keeps me looking over my shoulder the whole game.
Its survival horror and the spirit and nurse are probably the most survival horror of all the killers, mostly given their ability to pop up beside you and negate the mind numbing looping element of the game. The rest is just e-sports horror wannabe, which frankly isn't as fun.
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I understand there are some killers that are too weak to handle good survivors at strong structures but that doesn't excuse how unfair Spirit is. Blight and Huntress are perfect examples of killers that offer an equal chance for both sides to mind game each other.
Also, people like you really gotta stop assuming ######### like that. I don't always take Scott's word as I have disagreed with plenty of things he has said. He does say that the equal predictions are okay because it is an equal guess for both sides to outplay the other. Just watch the video as he does make some good points but some people can't accept that.
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That's not really a fair argument because anyone with over 50 hours in DBD has dropped all the scary aspects of it. That's how it is with any horror game but one of the reasons DBD is so successful is the fun aspect of outplaying the killer in chases. Spirit just takes that away for most people because there are no hints to what she's doing which makes it impossible to outplay. You're only just guessing.
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so in your understanding a mindgame when you can clearly see what the killer is doing? that can't really be called a mindgame
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nerf SWF if you want to nerf spirit.
otherwise enjoy your 1 hour que.
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Killers can see survivors too lol
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I kind of disagree with you there though.
The scare factor is not lost even after a few 100 hours in this game. Its just heavily diluted because its so easy to predict the killer for most of the roster.
A lot of the 'counter play' is purely abusing smaller hit boxes and squeezing every drop out of the mechanics of perks. There is very little truly 'mind game-able' parts of the map making most games not particularly surprising or scary.
I wish there were more killers who could negate the expected rather than killers I can just run around and around the same wall to avoid. I want to flee from the killer because they are a threat, not to show them that I'm better at running around the same rock than they are.
That's what I mean by survival horror vs e-sports mentality.
The spirit and nurse are great because they undermine this very formulaic predictable gameplay that most players develop over time. Formulaic predictable play is never scary but killers who can circumvent that can make for some very intense games and are inherently scarier as a result.
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