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why do killers hate dead hard?
I'm a survivor main and run dead hard purely to avoid getting downed during a chase. A lot of killers seem to think this is a strong perk, when I'd say it's a very half and half type of perk. Half of the time, it'll benefit me and the other half, I'm exhausted on the ground, dead hard a bit too early, or dead hard but get downed bc I'm in a dead zone. It's also an exhaustion perk, so I'll only be able to use it once during a chase (unless I happen to quickly get my exhaustion back). So if anything, I feel like it's very balanced and countered. Don't get me wrong through, I can see how you go for a hit and miss bc of dead hard, but I don't think it's enough to "get rid of it" especially bc killers are faster than survivors.. Is that not fair enough??
Comments
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When you use it for distance it's a guaranteed 3rd health state. You basically always greed the loop, if the killer respects you win, if the killer doesn't respect you DH and make the loop anyway. Generally speaking no counter play when used for distance in that way.
Zero negative, zero cost, zero skill requirement when used that way. There's no reason you wouldn't run it every game.
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Most of the reason people hate dead hard is Dead Hard for distance, which is something you genuinely can't counter.
When you use it to actually dodge, I think it's fine.
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It's a decently balanced perk in my opinion.
Although I understand the hate, it's used mostly to extend loops which can already be frustrating and waste time. It's a second chance perk which are always annoying.
It depends how it's used though, people using it just to dodge a m1 attack without any other plan makes it a super weak perk but using it to extend loops makes it a pretty strong exhaustion perk. Overall its whatever, just remember who how has DH and try to bait it ig.
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It's not a "dodge" perk as it's described, not unless you are going against certain killers that cannot bait it out. It's actually a distance perk with no counterplay that undoes a mistake in a game where mistakes are absolutely crucial.
In fact, that's also it's use when using it to dodge a Blink or Hatchet or Lethal Rush, or Phase Hit, or Bear Trap, or Pig Ambush, or Wraith Lunge. Or when you screw up at an unsafe pallet but it's big enough that the killer has to lunge around to hit you.
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Because they'll never be happy until every semi useful things survivors have to work with gets nerfed.
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An interesting mindset. One that is applicable to all "mains".
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It took them 4 years to finally balance DS. It took them 3 months to destroy ruin+undying. I'm sure DH will remain the same for quite a awhile.
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Because dead Harding for distance is pretty annoying to deal with, especially if there are multiple survivors running it. It's just one of those perks that's like "Welp, ok, guess I'm still chasing you for a while longer because you had a perk I had no way of knowing about it. Cool." It's not too strong but it is annoying, which can be said for a ton of perks and killers etc. in this game tbh, but dead hard is one of the things that's more in your face.
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Imagine mind gaming a loop then the survivor presses E at a pallet and essentially makes you waste another 30 seconds
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Because they feel robbed when they start chasing a non-exhausted target that proceeds to Dead Hard for distance.
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Kind of answered your own question. You use it to "avoid getting downed during a chase". Killers are supposed to down survivors and a perk that can prevent can be very devastating from the killer's side of the match.
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When used competently, there is absolutely nothing you can do to counter Dead Hard.
It is an automatically regenerating third health state.
Sure. If the survivor DH's into a wall, out in the open without a plan, or tries to time it late while playing on 187 ping, it will look bad.
Those idiots should not be considered for the balance of the perk.
Dead Hard allows you, once per chase, to:
- Ignore a Bear Trap when you should have died
- Ignore a Phantasm Trap when you should have died
- Ignore a Hatchet, Harpoon, Knife, Blink Strike, Lethal Rush, or Phase Hit when you should have died
- Get to a pallet or window when you should have died
- Get to the hatch or exit gate when you should have died
...and there is nothing the killer can do to stop this unless they're one of very few killers with an exhaustion add-on, or if they're running one of the very weak perks that apply the status.
A typical game start goes something like this:
- You find your first survivor after 30 seconds.
- You down that survivor after a 45 second chase.
- You take 15 seconds to hook that survivor.
- 270 seconds of potential generator repair time have elapsed, out of a required 400 to win the game.
Now imagine that survivor has Dead Hard.
- You find your first survivor after 30 seconds.
- You should have downed that survivor after a 45 second chase, but they used Dead Hard and made it to shack.
- They run shack safely, burning another 30 seconds, and move to another loop where you down them after 10 seconds.
- You take 15 seconds to hook that survivor.
- 345 seconds of potential generator repair time have elapsed, out of a required 400 to win the game.
This is the power of ONE use of Dead Hard.
Now remember that this is not a "once per trial perk" and is not an obsession perk where only one guy can use it.
Even assuming the killer never gives up chase after it gets used, three dead hards apiece times four survivors means that the killer has to earn an additional TWELVE ######### HITS just to break even with how well he'd be doing if Dead Hard was not present.
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Using dh is as skillfull as downing someone with No Head.
It's just not fun getting "outskilled" by a Perk.
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As a side note Dead Hard is also why I quit playing Trapper. Too many instances where a survivor can just give the middle finger to my trap. Dead Hard is a charge not a ######### jump it shouldn't bypass traps I don't care what anyone says. It's one of the most common perks in the game and makes playing Trapper harder. Yeah I get it you need good hidden traps but it nullifies being able to deny certain things like doorways.
Unless it's been changed to not do so anyways but I haven't played Trapper in such a long time because of this.
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This is a greater issue with Trapper though where devs just feel super comfortable letting tons of perks have unique interactions with his traps because he was designed in an era where the devs didn't get that powers should supercede perks (And items while we are at it).
That is slowly being phased out, but they really should just do a 3.0 trapper rework (Its amazing how little they did with 2.0) that in part says 'Traps have priority over any mechanic' and be done with it. Trap tracking and bypassing just shouldn't be a thing for Trapper, as an entirely seperate problem from DH (Because DH is fair in the context of dodging MOST killer powers, and is unfair in distance scenarios).
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in a game based around time, dead hard is a big middle finger to that concept as it makes the killer use more time in the chase when used for distance, it can add a whole second loop sometimes as well
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It's annoying. It's not all that powerful, but it feels really, really annoying. So people inflate it to resolve the cognitive dissonance of hey, on one hand, this perk doesn't actually break the game, on the other hand, it's just really boring to play against. Plus, the threat of DH can remove your ability to lunge, which kind of keeps you paranoid.
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@Blueberry Hmm that makes sense. Thanks for the response, it's very insightful for me!
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe Yeah, I only use it to dodge a hit when the killer's right behind me. Many people are commenting how people abuse dead hard so it's actually making a lot more sense to me now how it can be overpowering.
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@MadLordJack Well seeing how you described how most survivors use it, they seem to abuse the power of the perk. I actually use it to dodge a hit if the killer is behind me and about to hit me (not to greed a pallet, etc.), so I guess it depends on how it's used??
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@Khar Yeah, but from the survivor's perspective, we want to escape just as much as killers want the kills. It's also what survivors have to do... which is to survive.
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3:25 is the example
Dead hard reminds me a lot of the base jumper of TF2.
People who end up exhausted on the ground is the person that got shot out of the sky easilly
People who use it for distance are the people who are dodging all the rockets.
When people complain about a perk it's probably best to look at the best players and how they use it. And as it stands DHforDistance is just an extremly safe option every chase that the killer most of the time can do nothing against
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@Bard Wow that was actually very informative, thank you!! I didn't know that dead hard was abused in those ways you described.
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Everyone here has already pointed out what is wrong with DH, and I wholeheartedly agree with them. This perk needs a change.
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@Dustin No yeah that makes sense. I don't understand why dh can be used against a bear trap... doesn't add up to me.
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@GeneralV Oh yeah, I think it needs the change where you can't avoid certain killer's powers (i.e. bear traps, etc.) so that it's only used to avoid a hit.
Now I don't know about your stance on avoiding a hit, but it's pretty clear a lot of killers want the kills, but please remember survivors want to escape just as much!
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I understand your point and, honestly, do not see a problem with using it to avoid a hit.
Distance is the problem. Extending the chase because you randomly pressed a button? That isn't fair.
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@GeneralV I 100% agree with you and yes, I see the bigger problem now! Glad to know that we're on the same page. :)
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I can say the same :)
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Because it's impactful. You need to respect wounded survivors with the lunge until you realize either they don't have it or they're just exhausted on the floor, lol.
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one thing that also pisses me off is when I walk up to the survivor knowing they have DH, use my lunge attack (to hit him even if he uses DH at the right moment), but the game just cancels my lunge, and doesn't give me a hit .. it's so stupid
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Which is fine, but extending the chase is what leads to killer frustration and losing a hook or even the match. An extended chase is a threat to the killer's time management. If they can't get the down and put the survivor on the hook then you get situations where tunneling and camping can happen in response. Mind you, survivors can still escape after being hooked twice and a killer can not get a kill after getting 8 hooks.
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Im not a fan of it. Because of Hit detection. I often will make a melee attack against a player and THEN somehow a split second later, I see the animation of Dead hard. Despite I often figured they had it either way.
- Yes, I am on a wired connection.
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All exhaustion perks give distance. DH gives arguably the least and it the most janky out of them all. I dont know why new killers are having such an issue with it tbh...
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i think, because it gives you distance EXACTLY when you need this distance. and also I-frames as a bonus
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I play huntress mainly, so it's usually pretty rare it's a problem. Occasionally people use it to dodge hatchets, but its not often, and even then, if i ever have to melee the people that I melee i assume have deadhard. So for me it's not a problem. The "Counterplay" is to literally just see if they have it. It's only a nuisance when they can get to pallets. As it can create a window where they can escape for an additional 30 seconds + depending.
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All of these are great points.
I agree with them all.
Dead Hard should be used to avoid a hit. not to go over a bear trap. or gain distance in a chase. it's to dodge a hit.
sometimes I can bait it out while playing killer sometimes I can't and sometimes It gives too many second chances.
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Right they talk about having skill when they bloodlust that literally takes 0 skill
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for a dead hard you can make the killer waste so much extra time, second chance perks just hurt killers' soul. You say "now I got him" And he just dead hards and makes it on a jungle gym window, now he will loop you for 20 seconds before throwing the pallet, and you couldn't have done nothing to stop him to reach the jungle gym. That's why people can hate dh, I just find it annoying for example when noobs get carried by it.
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I prefer survivors to have DH as killer - way easier on me than Lithe or Sprint Burst. I've went against DH enough to know how to counter it and I can count on my hands out of the last 50 or so games where DH actually helped extend a chase longer than 3 seconds.
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I don't get it, tbh.
People complain it requires no skill and is not conditional, yet 90% of the time the survivor dead hards in the middle of nowhere which accomplishes nothing or they dead hard too close to a window or pallet causing them to miss the timing for fast vault or pallet drop.
Some survivors even try to dead hard through you which is easy to counter as well.
I generally respect Dead Hard users who use it well to extend a chase, because most survivors don't know how to do that. And frankly I don't think I've ever lost a game because someone Dead Harded either.
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I have no idea why killers complain about Dead Hard. Most of them are just saying "It has no counter if u use it for distance". I mean, have you ever heard about The Spirit? A killer with a power that has no counter, you're only lucky IF she makes a mistake. And also, you can use Dead Hard once per chase, and it has a cooldown of 40 seconds, you can use Spirits power multiple times in a chase.
I can agree that Dead Hard has no counter when you use it for distance and that you shouldn't be able to Dead Hard over Beartraps. But I don't really think killer mains can complain about Dead Hard because they think it's frustrating when they have The Spirit on their side.
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Because its the cheapest perk in the game, just press E to outplay.
Press E to make your mistake into killers mistake.
You mindgamed this survivor at the loop and getting rewarded for that play? Too bad, get outplayed by DH instead and you can chase them again.
Can extend the chase just by pressing the button anywhere from 3s to even 1minute depending how and where you use it.
"It doesnt work half the time and I am exhausted on the ground" sure, its a bad perk right? So bad that its meta af and everyone uses it every game in red ranks. Must be the most overused bad perk in history.
Sprint burst can be devastating to some M1 killers but DH is universal f*ck you to most killers. Just bait it out noobs, amirite?
I don't know how to change it without making it useless tho, just venting here after my game vs 4 DH
Sure, you can bait it out and you are more careful when you know they have it, rarely you get outplayed by it multiple times in a row, similar to 360.
However that lost time from DH miss in early game chase can really hurt you later on.
Maybe I am biased but I can't use DH anymore when playing survivor, its making me sick lmao
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It's a third health state and at lvl 3 it only has like 40-50 seconds of exhaustion before it can be used again.
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it's extremely powerful if you use it correctly, by far the best survivor perk right now in the hands of good survivors. A single dead hard for distance that leads to another vault or to the next pallet can make the difference between winning and losing, because it can cost you another 20 seconds. This makes it very hard to gain momentum against a 4 DH's team. It's extremely frustrating for the killer if you outplay someone and then get DH'd to get looped another time, just straight up unfair in my opinion.
(of course this only goes for good survivors who get even better through DH. Mediocre and bad survivors often don't use it correctly)
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"I run dead hard purely to avoid getting downed in a chase".
There's your reason. It gives you an unearned, free health state. Being that you had to be injured to use it, it's basically a reward for failure.
Remember back before hit validation when vault hits were REALLY, REALLY bad? Like, you'd vault shack window, walk 10 feet, and the killer still hits you through it? That feeling of not actually being outplayed, that demoralizing feeling of "I was just robbed" you got? That's the same feeling a killer gets when you are SUPPOSED to go down because the killer *played better* than you, but you had dead hard. The killer equivalent of that would be if a killer could reset a gen to zero, with one kick.
That's not even counting when it's used for distance, which there's no counter to, even if the killer knows they have it. I've seen even some of the best killers out there have their chase completely reset because a survivor dead harded for distance to a strong pallet or vault, and added 30+ seconds (which is an eternity for a killer) onto a chase.
If you use dead hard, and would have otherwise gone down had you not had it, you are a worse survivor than the person who doesn't use it and managed to loop just fine. You're mediocre, at very best. I'm not saying this to insult, it's just the truth. Most dead hard users, including those at the top of the twitch directory, have no clue what to do when they don't have their dead hard to bail them out of their terrible looping plays.
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Dead hard covers up your mistakes in a chase and cant be countered if used for distance. Basically rewarding good and bad players.
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i dont get it either. sprint burst gives way more distance
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Because, unlike the other exhaustion perks, it robs you a hit when you're about to end the chase. The situation was "this is it, I hit him, hook him and protect gen" turned into "let's be looped another X minutes", making the feeling of losing time far more powerful.
The perk is not a problem, I fear more 99% Sprint burst users than DH users.
But hell yeah DH is a frustrating perk, and I say that as a Nurse, I know what I'm talking about....
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People say you fear ds everytime theres a obsession. Dead hard does this even moreso since you have to respect a survivor whos injured to attempt to bait it out. If they do have it they just use it and make it to a pallet. If they didn't you still wasted some time respecting deadhards very existance. I find myself after injuring a survivor waiting behind them for 3 seconds everytime to bait it out. And if i still get unlucky and they hit it the same time i swing and it actually goes through well ######### me then. I find it in pretty much every game in red anyway so its not like its rare.
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