"Ds was always a anti tunnel perk" Why does it nobody use it then anymore?
It's funny, in the past all toxic people who abused ds used always the same excuse "It's just a anti tunnel perk, just don't tunnel"
So... Now where here with the ds nerf that really makes ds to a anti tunneling perk and...since then it's almost not there anymore. Not that it's not getting used, they don't even bring it that often anymore.
So, when ds is still just a anti tunneling to have something against the evil evil tunnelers, why are you don't bring it anymore? :)
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Because it's not a very effective anti-tunneling tool.
A killer who is actually tunnelling won't give a single ######### about a five second stun.
It definitely needed the nerf imo but I always wanted it's anti-tunnel buffed. The fear and free progression was Old DS's power, never the stun. Now the stun is all it has.
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DS never was an Anti-Tunnel Perk, because it does nothing against tunneling. It buys some time, but thats it, if a Killer wants to tunnel, they wont care about DS.
And especially the strong Killers can basically ignore it, because they can catch up in no time.
But hey, you use the word "toxic" and that people "abuse" things which are IN THE GAME to be used...
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I still use it. It feels great at end game when I have 100% guaranteed out to a win, when I'm getting camped at end game. it's gotten me a couple of wins. I like the nerfs they made to it, since I play killer as well.
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Hive mind mentality? They come here and a bunch of whiners said it was no good anymore so they stopped taking it. :) Or perhaps they only REALLY took it for the abuse of doing Objectives in the Killer's face. As far as discouraging Tunneling, it works exactly the same as it did before. So whether it is because they were LYING about why they took it, or whether they are sheeple... you can decide for yourself.
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Because I can't do a gen in the killers face without consequence anymore, or save my team mate from a hook in their face, or cleanse their totem with no risk :'( :'(. But that didn't matter because it was totally only used for anti tunnelling ( boy saying that out loud made remember how ridiculous old ds could be)
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It was being used as a perk whereby people could abuse it to force killers to take the hit because it was funny and be able to complete gens without any fear of the killer. It was utilised as an offensive tactic instead of a defensive tactic.
Now that it's lost that value, those people don't want to know anymore, so instead decided to ditch it. However, it still has good use to take out a killer, or even use it offensively by forcing a locker or vault grab. It just stops cheesing.
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You don't see it used much now because most those people weren't actually being tunneled, they were abusing it as a 60sec immunity.
It still prevents tunneling just as well as it did before. Shows how much the change was a good one.
It's still at least an A tier if not S tier perk.
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Still doesn't really work for anti tunneling.
A killer can tunnel after 2 hook stages, and DS only has 1 use.
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It's anti-tunnel, not immune to tunnel.
Immune to tunnel would be completely overpowered. There are times when the killer is required to tunnel.
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It should activate after both hook stages and it still wouldnt be overpowered. It just needs to actually be good at anti tunneling, which it isnt.
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No, that would be too much. It doesn't need more. Even at one use it's already extremely strong. If one 5 sec stun from tunneling isn't costing him at least 2 gens your team is playing really bad.
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The Nerf has destroyed the overall usefulness of the perk. Killers did not like it, which was to be expected (though killers get way more powerful game altering perks and they do not complain about those.) The Devs listened to the killer mains rather than the survivors, as usual.
Think of all the super powered killer perks which radically change the balance of the game and compare that to a survivor being able to get out of being carried once. No comparison.
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Not everyone plays in swf. It's time to start thinking more about solo Q
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I still bring it. Every game. It works exactly as before for me. I would always heal as soon as I could anyway with my super fast medkit. So I have no idea why someone would stop running it if they were indeed worried about tunneling.
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I'm not speaking directly of SWF. I'm speaking of good vs good. We balance from the top down.
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A tier ? That's a bit of a stretch, while I agree with the immunity being abused part I feel it's too situational to be ranked that high now , it's truly an anti tunnel perk at this moment in the game , on an off note it makes you wonder what they're about to come out with to compensate? I don't have a problem with the nerf but I'm expecting some pretty strong perks with a RE chapter coming
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Ds has literally never been an anti tunnel perk.
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actually i played both i think better buff a bit for DS so it wont gone when you heal teammates or yourself i think that was fair compared to how DS now.
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I know how frustrating solo que can be. I play only solo. But if my team is bad, they dont deserve to win. Its almost impossible to carry a team, who doesnt do gens.
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Because people can’t take no longer having a 60 seconds get out of jail free perk because now it deactivates if you self care are healed touch a totem touch a gen heal anyone else do a unhook so it’s no longer abusable
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I still use it in my matches because it's a great perk, and I love getting the opportunity to use it at EGC.
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Just how strong should an anti-tunnel perk be? Should it completely remove tunneling a survivor, or at least heavily discourage it?
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People don't use it because as long as there's an obsession in the trial, you don't really need to run it to essentially have the same effect. DS is still pretty strong, but as long as one person is running it, you can use other perks instead. I figured this out before the DS nerf and mostly stopped using it. Sure, there's games where NOBODY is running it, but sometimes the killer doesn't even notice there's no obsession. Or the killer is running an obsession perk.
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You're only way of winning in good vs good matches will require some variation of tunneling, camping, or slugging. DS single handedly eliminates one of those 3 options of winning. That is godly.
When it's a good team eating even one 5 sec DS stun will cost you at least 2 gens, aka the game.
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DS was never anti tunnel. It was a 2nd chance perk. Now the 2nd chance only works if you are actually being tunneled. Since the perk has been balanced were seeing just how many people suck without it.
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Agreed. I guess like many have said previously, it was about abusing it, not preventing tunneling. I still think it is a great perk and will keep it in my build. But like I said, nothing really changes for me.
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I use ds very often and is a very good 4/5 star perk, it mean't to be for anti tunneling if killer is tunneling I don't do anything to desactivate ds if I'm safe I,m staring to repair, healing myself.
It's not an abusable unfair perk anymore.
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It was a trash anti-tunnelling perk that's why people stop running it.
It was an ok anti-tunnelling perk but the bit extra it gave you is why people used it. No one can try and say they never use anything busted if it helps them stay alive (hello every broken add-on in the game).
Difference is now that the extra bit of safety is gone, all that's left is this easily countered and terrible anti-tunnelling perk. It needs a slight buff for people to use it again.
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Because survivors can't use it as a 60 second immunity anymore.
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Imo, DS never was anti-tunnel perk until it's nerf, old DS was litteraly a whole minute of invincibilty, end of the line
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I use it.
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You may not agree but they have a point, just as others do as well.
It is still an oppressive way to play with hardly any downside. There are so many inconsistencies in this perk’s design that I wouldn’t call it anti tunnel for those reasons alone. Let alone for the fact that you can still tunnel someone out of the game and now in an easier form than ever.
Even at two hook stage activations I wouldn’t call it anti-momentum. You are still tunneling after an unhook.
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It was never an anti-tunnel perk.
There's a reason for the phrase "just eat the DS". Because you could just keep tunneling.
There is no in-game way to prevent yourself from getting tunneled. If the killer wants to tunnel, they will do it and nothing will stop them.
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I wouldn't say it does nothing, but I many times have ds a hard tunneler and proceeded to run them around for several gens while they throw the whole game trying to get me. Particularly satisfying if your teammates can get the doors open and you actually get out too. Depends on killer skill, but I've found hard tunnelers usually suck at the game so I can run tf out of them.
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"It is still an oppressive way to play with hardly any downside."
That's simply not true. Your team should be pumping out gens in this time.
"There are so many inconsistencies in this perk’s design that I wouldn’t call it anti tunnel for those reasons alone."
Like what inconsistencies? It's quite consistent for an anti-tunnel.
"Let alone for the fact that you can still tunnel someone out of the game and now in an easier form than ever."
No, it isn't easier to tunnel than ever. All the circumstances that were removed were not tunneling circumstances. It's just as good for tunneling as it was before.
"Even at two hook stage activations I wouldn’t call it anti-momentum. You are still tunneling after an unhook."
As we've been over, it's anti-tunnel, not immune to tunnel. There are circumstances you are forced to tunnel as a killer and 2 activations would make this an immune to tunnel perk.
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Doing gens as an action is not enough of a downside. Of course survivors can still do the objective, but if they want their teammate to remain alive, they will also try to help where/if they can. That is fundamental to the game as it is a team-based game and working on gens isn't the only way you have to survive.
As far as inconsistencies:
Inconsistency # 1: You cannot heal yourself but you can have others heal you and still keep DS. (doesn't make sense but ok)
Inconsistency #2: You can touch a gen for a split of a second and lose your DS, because somehow that gets the killer off your back. When in reality there is a reason why the devs added a 60 second timer. Because they felt that was fair. Not a 1 second deactivation that does nothing to progress the game.
Inconsistency #3: Doesn't work on both hook stages, even though people on here claiming "it only counts as tunneling if it is done right after an unhook".... *killer proceeds to tunnel at 1st and 2nd stage*.
You keep saying "you're not suppose to be immune to tunneling" but we haven't even began to scratch the surface to make such assumption. Even with the previous DS, you weren't immune because the killer could still down you.
Your views on tunneling are far from acknowledging everything that actually encompasses tunneling. It isn't black/white as I and many others have explained many times. If you can understand how there are certain circumstances where the killer is forced to tunnel, then you should have enough understanding that there are also circumstances where they didn't have to, and chose to anyway. I mean, as a 50/50 killer player I can at least admit that one.
A far more realistic and fair balance would have been for the timer to start depleting AS survivors are doing objectives, not immediately.
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"Doing gens as an action is not enough of a downside. Of course survivors can still do the objective, but if they want their teammate to remain alive, they will also try to help where/if they can. That is fundamental to the game as it is a team-based game and working on gens isn't the only way you have to survive."
Losing the entire game is not enough of a downside? That's literally as bad as it can get.
"Inconsistency # 1: You cannot heal yourself but you can have others heal you and still keep DS. (doesn't make sense but ok)"
You're right, it should deactivate if you get healed as well. They were trying to be generous. If either of those actions are happening you aren't being tunneled.
"Inconsistency #2: You can touch a gen for a split of a second and lose your DS, because somehow that gets the killer off your back. When in reality there is a reason why the devs added a 60 second timer. Because they felt that was fair. Not a 1 second deactivation that does nothing to progress the game."
And they changed it later because they felt that is was not fair. That scenario you are presenting is not an issue with the perk, it's an issue with you making a bad decision. You should be making sure you are safe before touching the gen. The perk is to prevent you from getting tunneled off the hook, not from going down again in 60 seconds.
"Inconsistency #3: Doesn't work on both hook stages, even though people on here claiming "it only counts as tunneling if it is done right after an unhook".... *killer proceeds to tunnel at 1st and 2nd stage*."
Do you realize how many times I run into the same survivor after they happened to be the last one unhooked? It's purpose is to prevent tunneling off the hook, that's it.
"You keep saying "you're not suppose to be immune to tunneling" but we haven't even began to scratch the surface to make such assumption. Even with the previous DS, you weren't immune because the killer could still down you."
And then he gets picked up by a teammate, Unbreakable, Soul Guard etc. Downing them for 60 seconds was not a legit counter. You are immune for 60 seconds. You are the minority here. The vast majority of the community understood how overpowered this perk was.
"Your views on tunneling are far from what encompasses tunneling. It isn't black/white as I and many others have explained many times. If you can understand how there are certain circumstances where the killer is forced to tunnel, then you should have enough understand where there are also circumstances where they didn't have to, and chose to anyway. I mean, as a 50/50 killer player I can at least admit that one."
And these circumstances that the killer would choose to tunnel you DS is protecting you in its current state. You want the circumstances for DS activation to be so ridiculously loose that it would be abused and carrying games in high skill matches as it was before. I play 50/50 as well and what you want is not balanced at all.
"A far more realistic and fair balance would have been for the timer to start depleting AS survivors are doing objectives, not immediately."
That makes no sense whatsoever. You are not being tunneled while you are working away on a gen, that is ridiculous. If you are that worried you are getting tunneled then you shouldn't be touching a gen, you should be getting healed and in a safe place away from objectives.
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You honestly just don't get my points. That's ok though, you seem to have an excuse for every single thing someone says against tunneling.
I'll just agree to disagree with every one of those comments. I like to have healthy arguments when players aren't biased towards one side or the other. I never said I wanted circumstances to be ridiculously loose, I want them to be fair. Big difference.
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"'you seem to have an excuse for every single thing someone says against tunneling."
Because your rationals are bad.
"I'll just agree to disagree with every one of those comments. I like to have healthy arguments when players aren't biased towards one side or the other."
I have massive amounts of hours equally on both sides. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make my opinion biased, that's flawed reasoning. Your reasoning's aren't rational and because I'm poking holes in them now it's not a "healthy argument", that's just ridiculous.
You seem to be unable to believe there is even a remote chance whatsoever that you could possible be wrong. No, no, not a chance, he's just biased.
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sometimes youre gonna get tunneled to death, sometimes you wont. the perk is just dead weight if the killer doesnt chase off hook
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I never really run DS since it has never really helped me get away. I rather play Windows of Opportunity or some exhaustion perk not Dead Hard though since it is predictable. They help me analyzing map parts and make use of them and buy some time. that is what DS is suppose to be doing.
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Honestly, they should give current DS as base kit for survivors. There is way to much tunneling and camping going on now.
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Because survivors weren't using the perk as an anti tunnel perk, the were ABUSING 60 sec inmunity to repair, heal or even clease the hex totem in front of the killer without any punishment.
And DS + UB combo abuse obviously, but now, survivors can't abuse DS and for them is a waste of slot.
Good survivors doesn't carne about tunnel, they have the tools and the aknowledge to face that situation without any problem.
What happens then? Well, survivors average level is just bad and low skilled, and instead of improving, they choose to cry at forums and claim for Killers nerfs :)
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DS isn't really even an anti-tunnel perk, a five second stun won't magically make a killer who wants you out of the match stop chasing you. It's a slightly prolonged head-on stun, people don't use it anymore because they never used it not to be tunneled in the first place. It was a strong perk but never an anti-tunnel perk. I'm not upset at it's nerf because it was over-powered but there needs to be a legitimate anti-tunnel mechanic in the game because it is frustrating especially to players in solo queue. A SWF will destroy a tunneling killer and just pump generators, a solo queue team will unhook the person without taking aggro and just let them get tunneled out of the match without getting any points.
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I always saw DS as an anti-momentum perk that was useful as anti-tunnel, and then many found some uses for it that maybe were a lil annoying.
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Pretty much these reasons:
I'll go for the save because I have DS active.
I'll body block/take agro because I have DS active.
I can work on this gen and the killer can't do anything about it.
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get off the hook, start healing myself as the unhooker has disappeared. 5 seconds later killers on me. Since I healed for 2 seconds no more DS.
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You shouldn't be healing yourself under hook. That's a very risky play when that's the last known location the killer knows you were at.
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laurie would need an entirely new teachable which would probably suck just like 50% of survivor perks. it would call for a lot of abuse
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I agree, but instead of using it to stop tunneling I just use it to buy time. I like to run Lithe and DS the killer, then use the stun time to go vault a window and get away.
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