http://dbd.game/killswitch
Camping, Tunneling, and slugging should never be punished
Without changing the core mechanics of the game, or changing how the game works entirely, you cannot get rid of camping, tunneling, and slugging or punish it. The way the game works just will not allow the outright deletion of any of the three strategies listed above. Punishing these strategies will also not work either, and they shouldn't be.
And no, adding perks that mitigate them will also not help since they can be abused and create imbalances. Perks like BT should honestly not even exist.
- You can't implement a system that punishes killers for camping because they already are the killer is de-ranked the more they do it. Even then, they are few and far in between. It doesn't make sense to nerf it or get rid of it because it is generally a very bad strategy. If you die to a hardcore camping killer, it is safe to say that it was probably your fault.
- You can't implement a system that punishes killers for tunneling because that is just straight up donkey doo doo right there, no offense to your donkey bois Karu. If you punish tunneling, you are literally punishing the killer for doing their job. That is like punishing survivors for constantly focusing on generators ("geN RuShInG"), it is dumb.
- You can't implement a mechanic such as a free unbreakable for survivors to use if they have been slugged for a minute. It is one of the few strategies that a killer can use to their advantage and nerfing this would nerf all killers, and therefore encourage camping and tunneling more. And in the very rare circumstance that you are being slugged to death, you are only going to wait 4 minutes, it is not that big of a deal. Allowing survivors to get up after a minute would also encourage splitting up more since the survivor could get themself up without any help, therefore making survivors less dependent on other survivors.
- Sometimes the killer has to resort to camping, tunneling, or slugging as well in some situations. Nerfing any of these strategies makes the killer helpless which should not be the case when you are playing the power role in this game.
So while I do think that you should never punish hardcore camping or tunneling, I do think that BHVR can encourage strategies that are more fun, as well as a whole bunch of other things.
They could somehow reward killers for 12 hooking survivors, they could (they need to) buff weaker killers to the point of "A" or "B" tier (and be fun to play as and against), they could also reward survivors more for playing better as well. Survivors could be encouraged to go for all kinds of playstyles such as taking aggro, doing gens, or (maybe, if done right) stealthing.
I think that survivors should be rewarded with more points. If survivors were awarded with more points for doing well, it would also make survivors feel much better if they died. If you do well all game and die, you still did very well, you just happened to die because the killer was good (probably).
Thoughts?
Comments
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It has always been my opinion, and stated belief that rewards are the way to go here, not punishments. I think Barbeque & Chili is an excellent example of modifying Killer behavior through rewards. But to do it base kit, I think that Killers should earn their own version of Bold. Survivors get Bold for remaining in the Killer's Terror Radius when not in a chase. I think Killers should earn their own version of Bold for staying a certain distance from a hooked Survivor, while not in a chase. Or instead of Bold, reward the Killers with some kind of Generator Regression. The point being, the Killer has to have a sensible reason to leave the bird in hand for the potential two in the bush.
15 -
Agree, killer need the freedom to play as they please and situations dictate. Restrictions would only implement exploitable windows and create a more rigid unappealing play.
For the most part Survivors need to improve on their ability to avoid the killer as none of these strategies can be applied until you are found and downed. Stealth>looping as some killers are stronger in chase but all are susceptible to stealth play.
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Do you know how many times I get nasty messages from the killer for playing stealthy? Neither side can win these arguments
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I don't think the OP was starting an argument. He was making the statement that rewards are more effective than punishments in this case (which I agree with). Killers must have the same Player agency that Survivors have or we would turn them into glorified Bots. On an entirely different topic, if you get nasty messages from the Killer, that is just bad sportsmanship on their part. You play how you see fit.
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Oh no I wasn't implying he's arguing but it'll always end up in arguments sadly and yeh idk no body can win lol. Only thing I don't like is hook camping but I digress
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I think the game will come a long way if the Devs would implement teleporting hooks that are only active when 3 or more gens are still needed to be repaired. It will cut down on the tunneling (looking at you, Spirit tunnelers) and make the game much more enjoyable for solo. Once the survivors are down to two gens, the teleporting should be disabled since that is when the killer will need to tunnel most of the time.
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While I agree with you that killers may need to resort to strategies like camping and tunneling to do well, like any strategies they need and should have counters to them. No strategy should be 100 fool proof which is why I encourage perks like unbreakable, ds and bt in order to help counter these strategies.
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The biggest issue with things like camping and tunneling is that it ######### over everyone in the game and no one has fun because of it. The killer just stands afk at the hook and de pips, the person getting camped isn’t allowed to play and also de pips, and the other 3 survivors don’t get to play an actual game and also only black pip at best but more often then not they de pip because the killer refuses to interact with them in any way. By keeping camping in the game it encourages toxicity, hate messaging, and creates and divide in the community.
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Haven't gotten any salt from killers myself, but some people do take stealth to far. If your stealthy and productive on gens the game still progresses. I know what most killers hate are stealthy Survivors that refuse to touch gens once things start to look bad for the team. Nobody wants to face blindettes that take the game hostage out of fear and hope for the hatch.
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These are the exact feelings i've had for a while now regarding killers. I shouldn't be punished for simply playing the game by the standards the devs set themselves. My only goal is to kill survivors so it shouldn't matter how I do that. Sometimes I need to defend hooks, there could be any number of reasons for it, and I don't have the time nor does it make sense to just leave the immediate area if I don't deem it necessary. Everyone has no problem with killers playing hyper aggressive going for 12 hook games, so why is it a problem when I defend hooks or force people into 2nd stage?
I get that camping sucks but survivors have perks that help stop it and if they just work as a team they can make sure that it wont work out for me. The thing is most survivors only look out for themselves and not so much for teammates. This becomes even more apparent when killers start to face those red rank squads that realize I can't be everywhere at once.
4 -
Unfortunately, I agree. It took 3 consecutive months of holding W, predropping palllets and actual, 3-to-4-minute-trial-genrushing for me to change my mind, but I agree. Without changing the core mechanic of the survivors objective into a more interactive form, punishing the scummy playstyles will just push killers further away from... Well, from killer. And it sucks and I hate it but blame the game design for allowing survivors to stall the killer into a win.
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True, but unfortunately there really is no way to stop that, you can only encourage more fun playstyles.
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You can fix it by reworking the piping/ranking system but the devs seem terrified to do that for some reason.
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I will say that true legit face camping sucks and doesn't have a place in the game but proxy camping and hoping for a hook trade is just fine. I'm all for both sides interacting with one another, but until I'm not forced to bring perks to make up for how fast gens can go by you just can't get rid of camping or tunneling. As someone that plays killer mostly with some survivor on the side, while watching lots of steamers play survivor, win or lose most killers never rub it in the face of the other 4 players. The same can't be said for survivors who will, win or lose, always have something to say to the killer about how they played. Survivors can absolutely be some of the most cocky, stubborn, and just petty people i've seen in gaming in general.
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Well they would be because every attempt has failed.
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It’s not hard to fix the problem. Just replace the emblem that says I have to be chased by the killer and start rewarding stealth more.
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if it wasn't hard to fix then it would be in place by now. Things are much harder than it seems when it comes to game development.
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100% agree. This has been my stance for a very long time. The only way to "solve" it is to rework the death/hook system in one way or another so these strats aren't necessary/optimal anymore. Moving hooks from the individual to the team and reducing the overall amount needed could work for example.
But that's not happening.
It sucks, but its here to stay.
On the other points, I think we should amp up points for everyone. At the least I don't think survivors should be making less BP basically just for playing survivor.
Promoting other playstyles wouldn't hurt, but as long as the core problem is there anyone out just to win will still do these things. You'd just be rewarding those that play for fun more, which I'd approve of. If they're going to play in a weaker way just so people have a good time, at least make it worth their while.
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I get that I hate players who decide to chicken out but they were made they never hooked me and I got 3 gens done. There's being stealthy then there's being a (bad word) cause it's not going well for the survivors
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I’ve camped, tunneled and slugged in matches and doubled pipped in those matches. I also did plenty of chases, gen defense, etc. Yeah if you hook one guy and camp him until he dies you will likely +0 pip at best, but these are legit and necessary tactics that killers should be using in the right situations.
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We can agree to disagree. I don't think it's a terrible idea. It the best idea to prevent the plethora of lazy killers who refuse to leave hooks or only know how to rush a hook the second someone unhooks. Tunneling and camping isn't a problem for swf, but for solo, they're miserable and the devs need to do something so players don't quit from how boring and frustrating it is to be on the receiving end at of these tactics at the start of the match.
I agree that there are points when the best choice is to tunnel/camp/slug, but there should be something that discourages killers from doing so in the beginning of the match.
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Pog, no longer jailed
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Care to explain why? Camping, slugging, and tunneling are part of the game.
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The problem is that lots of times, especially these days, most killers don't feel the need to tunnel/camp/slug at five gens. It's obvious when you're facing a team of solo scrubs who can barely loop, and yet, they choose to just keep on with tunneling and camping.
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Ok. Ban all people who use SWF. Some of them use discord, just like only some Killers camp, tunnel, or slug. So ban them all, just like you want to punish all Killers.
Or does it only work one way?
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well
7 -
I'm neutral on this. These strats all have places when they're the smartest thing you can do in order to tilt the game in your favor, and I'd never advocate for removing them like some people would love, but they're also annoying to play against because they rob the targeted survivor of the ability to play the game and typically force depip. (Less so slugging, moreso camping and tunneling. Slugging is only an issue when you're left on the ground for most of your bleedout timer; slugging to catch someone who's obviously nearby is nothing to cry about.) This is a game, and personally I'm in this for the fun. I avoid things that I wouldn't like to play against and generally feel they shouldn't be used when unnecessary for that same reason. If a killer tunnels me because I'm a weak link/the most exposed player and they need a survivor gone by this point in the game, that's cool. If a killer tunnels me from the start of the match because they want a 3-man game at 5 gens, then I leave the match feeling that was cheap. Same with being facecamped during the endgame collapse because there's literally nothing else worthwhile for the killer to do, or being facecamped because I found a key, versus getting facecamped by a Bubba who just wants me to salt in endgame chat and maybe add to his wall of -reps.
We're all people playing a game, and generally people are unhappy if they weren't able to do anything in the game. It's the same feeling as when a bully squad refuses to let the killer get hooks between organized sabo/DH flashlights/Head On. They're not playing optimally by putting all their eggs in one basket and not focusing on their objectives, but it's obnoxious as hell to face because they aren't letting you do yours, either. No, you're not required to babysit the opposing team when it's obvious you're much more skilled than they are, but a little empathy is nice to have. Do unto others and all that.
Perks like BT and Decisive Strike need to exist in order to give survivors a chance to actually play the game when a killer decides they don't want to give them a chance to do anything in a match. This game's not well balanced at high ranks, but killers are still the power role and individually survivors have very little power against them. Survivor power comes in numbers and from the fact that the killer can't be everywhere at once, so when the killer wants to isolate a survivor out of the game, survivors need the chance to byplay that and extract the player. Not a given, but a chance, which is what the perks provide - basically enough time to get to the closest loop and nothing more if the killer commits to you, and also for your teammates to position themselves between you and make it more compelling for the killer to switch targets.
Dying to a hardcore camping killer is not a sign of a bad player. If the whole team dies, then that's the sign of a dumb/uncoordinated team, but 'don't get caught' always struck me as a pretty stupid thing to sling around. Few players can expect to loop a killer for the entire game, and when it happens, it signifies an immense skill gap between survivor and killer. How many survivor games against non-baby killers do you never get downed in? The game is not built for a survivor to be able to evade the killer indefinitely; that's why each survivor has three lives and most of their time is not spent with the killer actively chasing them.
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I don't think any of that should be punished and certainly not made mechanically impossible at all.
But I also think perks that interact with the tactics have a place, it's practically unavoidable anyway with the perk design of DBD. Pretty much everything besides the most sacred balancing variables have perks and other selectables interacting with them, and by sacred I mean stuff like 3 hooks = death and survivors having to do 5 gens to power the gates.
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It is a game problem. The game is supposed to provide fun for both sides and if the devs want to retain customers, they need to discourage these tactics from being used at the early parts of the match.
"Sometimes" isn't enough of a reason, more often than not, killers camp because they're either lazy or just as bad, if not worse, than the potatoes they're facing.
Other than protecting a totem, there is no reason to camp when there are still 4/5 gens except for being bad, lazy or just wanting to be toxic.
3 -
So is SWF with voice coms. Sometimes people don't use it to sweat & be toxic. 'Sometimes' is not enough of a reason.
More often than not, people use it to depip Killers, bully them, and get unfair advantages. SWFs use it to be lazy.
See how it works in reverse?
Camping, slugging, and tunneling are PLAYER CHOICES. You don't get to demand we play less hard for you. All whining about these tactics is, is trying to tie our hands so you can win easier.
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I'm not demanding that you play less hard, I am requesting that the devs make camping, slugging and tunneling less attractive or convenient.
One can also say that people who fully support these tactics at all times just want to be able to win easier, which is true, for if they didn't want an easy win, they wouldn't tunnel, slug or camp at the start of the match.
Also, this has nothing to do with swf. I actually believe that the devs need to balance the entire game around swf on comms. Killers should be buffed so they can have fair matches against cheaters who use outside communications, while also bringing up solo so they don't suffer even more than they already do.
You probably think I am a biased survivor main, but feel free to look up my comment history and you will see I am not.
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Why can't they do both? I'm all for 15 minute games where survivors have to look for parts and gas cans to fix gens while killers hunt for them and not have the luxary to tunnel/camp/slug at 5 gens.
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Killers already get less points and BP. What else can they do?
If they add mechanical punishments in a match, it will screw over Killers when camping, slugging, or tunneling are pivotal moments that swing a match. It will force Killers to lose because of a punishment mechanic.
Good look with Survivor queue times if THAT ever happens. Killers will leave en masse, since they no longer have the agency to pick, and the game is forcing losses for a punishment meant to appease Survivors who don't want to learn to play better.
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You just want a little Deus Ex Machina from the DEVs to take away the agency of other Players which provides an "easy" win to those in their opposition. Interesting. You don't see the irony in your demand at all do you? Killers are also Players and they want the same agency as Survivors. They are not here to be your personal, glorified Bots. Free will is a harsh mistress. Rigging the game to force a narrow window of options is turning Players into Bots, and we will lose them. We are already suffering for Killers for a number of reasons. This is the game; there are only so many choices Killers get to make, i.e. who to chase, when to chase them, and whether to put them on the hook and/or slug them. Removing or as you coyly put it make it less attractive (one would assume to the point that they can't) reduces them to to Chase Bots. All due respect, I don't think you could possibly have thought through the implications as you seem like a nice person. Why would you want to condemn any Player to being just the Ghosts from the old Pac Man game?
This isn't about buffs or debuffs. This is about Player agency; a game either has it or it doesn't.
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My suggestion doesn't take away player agency, it just makes tunneling, camping and slugging a little more difficult, and only in the early stages of the match. If a killer is hellbent on tunneling, all they have to do is find the survivor again. The only difference is that with my suggestion, the killer has to consider their options a little more seriously.
Never said or alluded to killers being my glorified Bots, killers will still have the free will in order to choose what actions that they want to take. I've faced plenty of Pyramid Heads who were able to tunnel out a survivor even when they used cages.
Just like the many complaints of how survivors do gens too fast, complaints of being tunneled/camped out of the game at the start of the match are just as valid. I am all for player agency, but fun for both sides should be equally as important.
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They can work on both and release them at the same time. I never said that they weren't valid strategies, I just think they should be discouraged from the early part of the match. I'm not asking for them to be removed at all, just be made a little more unattractive.
But yea, with how long it took them to buff Wraith, the mediocre buff to Clown and with how they handled Moris and how long they're taking with the key nerf, I don't have much hope that they can work this out.
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What part of Player agency do you not understand? Strategies and tactics are ALL agency. I always do short patrols after the first hook because I like to gauge my opponents; I want to see how many come running to that first hook so I know how altruistic they are in that specific match. I need to know what alternate means of Generator pressure I can apply. Are they coldblooded and will milk that first hook for every second of Generator possible, or will it be one, two, or all three that come on the run. This is me being tactical and gathering information. According to you, I don't get that right because YOU feel it is too early for me to camp. Man you have some nerve.
And what about those Killers who can Proxy camp and don't need to be close to get the same result. Are you saying that Hag, Trapper, Demo, and Freddy (not all but a good sample) who can leave their early warning systems and fast return options should be penalized the same as my slow Spooky Myers? :) Do you have the audacity to say that some Killers don't have the RIGHT to use their Power in the way it was actually designed? Or if you are saying they can', the rest of the Killers have to just take a flying leap? You haven't thought this through, not one bit.
I can give about fourteen more tactics, strategies, and reasons the Killer may stay close to a hook early, or tunnel a specific person, or slug at five Generators. They are all fair, reasonable, and part of the reason we play the game against PEOPLE and not Bots. Tell me how it is going to work in your grand design when your version would make some Killers extinct and not harm others at all?
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Like why don't people understand that its Killers vs Survivors in terms of gameplay, both sides can't win and one has to lose.
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I don't know. I play both Survivor and Killer in equal measure. I play hard and expect my opponents to do the same. I don't blame either role if/when they waffle-stomp me. I give them a congratulations and a thank you for the game. I'm not saying that Dead by Daylight is perfect. We all have our opinions and suggestions, but gutting Player Agency is a no fly zone for me. I think encouraging, with rewards, Killers to certain behaviors is a more workable method and doesn't impinge on choice. It actually increases choices.
The Perk: Barbecue & Chili, for example, is a shining success in this regard. It gives Killers profit and reason to leave the area of the hook. If it didn't exist, camping would be 100x more common. I not against approaches that expand choices and encourage different tactics by making them equally profit-oriented. In fact, I've even given feedback of my own about it.
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Certainly a reasonable player, the biggest thing I hate when playing killer is feeling as if "there's nothing I can do". I would love to not camp and give everybody an equal chance of playing but im not allowed the time to do so because gens go by fast. I want to run weird unorthodox builds but when 2/4 of my perks are regulated to gen defense my choices are pretty limited.
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I hear you. You can rest-assured that over time that feeling will go away and your ability to get things done will let you stray further and further from hooks until you only camp when you have a specific reason to do it. Sadly it just takes thousands of hours of play to get there when you are constantly being put up against people far superior to you. That is the problem we have right now in DbD. To keep the Queues moving, they will put Killers up against people way too good them. That means Killers, even those who are no longer Potatoes, have to make a hard call. It is camp and tunnel to try and get anything done, or run around and just practice looping and accepting the loss.
Oddly enough, both are viable ways to get better at the game. There are skills in playing keep away with the hook that need honing, timing for grabs, and knowing how far away to be and when to be close. People act as if Camping is this plug and play, easy thing. While it is true that anyone can squat on a hook, doing it in a way that is truly effective in turning one secured kill into multiple does require competence and effort. Me, I pride myself on the intercept and grab. I play a LOT of Spooky Myers which means I am Proxy Camping to a degree, in that I go off on patrols to maintain Generator pressure but use my wall hacks to know when someone is making a run on the hook. The trick is to have GREAT map knowledge and routes in your head with timing. It isn't easy, but you can intercept at the hook and make that grab. The best thing about this method is that I haven't given up Generator pressure entirely, and since I've being seen elsewhere, the would-be unhooker doesn't take the right precautions to foil my grab.
I digress but wanted to give you a specific example. Accepting you are going to lose against far superior opponents is also valuable. If you accept that loss you will not get tilted and be far less frustrated. You can use them as a tutorial for looping and hunting down Survivors. The better they are the faster you will improve. If you get to the point where you can bird-dog excellent Survivors you should not have been matched with, imagine how good you will be against the ones you should be matched with. Does that make sense. Basically, I'm saying when you find yourself feeling powerless... laugh... nod... accept this is a learning game... and decide what you want to practice more.
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I primarily play Survivor (Used to play both roles more, but I just don't have time anymore nor as much interest in Killer) and I 100% agree with this. Killers need to have better rewards and reasons not to camp and tunnel, especially when not necessary. (Because imho, that's probably where I personally get the most frustrated with tunneling or camping- when a Killer has been doing a great job maintaining pressure that game, has gotten a really good amount of hooks to gens, and then seems to decide that they now all of a sudden need to camp or tunnel, when they had been doing great with out it.)
Idk, I definitely think the strats are necessary, and Killers should be rewarded for not doing them to some degree (Just like how Survivors get p decent rewards for not ending the game in .2 seconds, as doing so won't net them as many points.), but I'm not quite sure what kind of bonus they should even really get besides extra BP or perhaps a modifier to make gatekeeper a bit easier to maintain, and reward you stronger for attempting to spread pressure to the gens more. (Obviously, that's just with the current pip system, which is quite... questionable for both sides.)
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No worries, I've gone down this whole cycle time and time again. I've got no problems with the general pace of things, my only gripe is the small inconsistencies that plague the game on the killer side(grabs not registering, fighting perks and not survivors, not enough chaser points despite winning all my chases, etc). I like the game but man is it hard to binge, I usually only have enough patience for 3 or 4 games a day.
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So was perma-sabo. Something being in the game is no excuse, since that's why we have a feedback forum. Game design always goes through many iterations because no design is immaculate.
But out of those three, Camping is the best example: It's simply not fun for anyone involved. The person getting camped is not having fun. The people holding M1 on gen are not having fun. The killer simply staring at their victim or bobbing up and down that hook is not having fun.
The entire purpose of the game falls apart completely when camping. And it's holding other developments hostage as well, since you can't actually improve the issue with survivor objective speed due to any slowdown on that front being a direct and unmitigable buff to camping. It's only a 1K? Well, now the gens take so long that the killer can sit out both hookstates and then find and down a second victim before gen 5 pops and the gates are open.
Imagine what non-Kindred solo queue would be like. Yuck.
Slugging and tunnelling are considerably less egregious, but camping is the literal worst thing DBD has to offer and there's no real argument for wanting to keep it. In particular, the idea of slowing the hookstate progression while the killer is nearby and not in a chase seems a perfectly tailored solution that helps reduce its viability without hindering normal gameplay.
And once camping is done away with, genrushing can be addressed.
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The thing is, camping is such a core part of the game that you can't get rid of it without redesigning the game from the ground up. How exactly would camping be nerfed? It sucks when it happens, but for now at least there is nothing we can really do about it. The perma sabo on the other hand was an issue, but it had a very reasonable nerf. It's nerf was to just give hooks a set time to respawn, and then it was nerfed again to be faster and have a much shorter cooldown. This was very easy to do, camping is much different because it is really hard to fix.
Gen rushing isn't the problem though, it is map design and weak killers. A weaker killer will struggle to catch survivors, and strong maps make this even worse on them. You spend too much time chasing one survivor on just one part of the map while everyone works on generators. The only real way to fix this would be to make the maps more balanced and
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I can make an argument for keeping the option for it. We are fighting people, not Bots. Killers only have so many choices to make in game, considerably fewer than the Survivors themselves. All Players, both roles, decide on their Build but once the game starts Killers are constrained to a largely reactive function, with the Survivors leading the dance. Consider:
- Killers can choose to enter Search & Destroy mode or choose a 3-Gen. from the start.
- Killers may choose who to chase if multiple targets appear.
- Killers may choose to slug or hook.
- Killers may choose to defend the hook or return to search and destroy or defend Gens,
By in large that is it; if the Killer is thrifty they can hook in proximity to Generators they wish to defend, which tends to make the choice of whether to defend the hook (camp) or not easier to make. If you can get two out of three things done with one action, why wouldn't you do it? It bears noting that Generator Pressure falls under the "Search & Destroy" mode above. When you break down the limited choices above, you find that your Killer really only gets an option of chase or defend (camp).
Now let's put Player agency under the microscope, and further analyze these limited choices.
- Search & Destroy is pretty much chase mode and little else. Defending a 3-Gen is Camping Generators.
- The Killer choosing whom to chase out of multiple targets is pretty much a question of to Tunnel or not Tunnel.
- Hook or Slug is just to Slug or not to Slug (which in turn leads to camp or not camp).
- And finally, choosing to defend or return to Search & Destroy is simply camp or don't camp.
All this talk about either punishing or limiting the Killers options on whether or not they can (or should) be able to camp instantly reduces them to glorified Bots. Who the hell wants to just be a Bot? With so few choices to make, the loss of even one is terrible. The specific loss of the only non-chase option is a stake through the heart of free will. We have enough trouble keeping Killers now. And just to be clear, I'm not advocating Camping. I am simply adamant about the fact that the choice must be there. I think a great solution is to offer rewards which increase the value and number of Killer choices. If we make it worth their while and provide additional options, Killers will take them. Simply trying to punish or regulate them out of what little free will they have is going to fail miserably (as it has in every past test case).
Let me put it another way, if the only real option left to Killers is chase mode, there are better chase games than DbD. People who just enjoy chasing will gravitate to those games which do it better. People enjoy DbD for a variety of reasons but one of the big ones is the unpredictable (and sometimes unfair) nature of it. Playing against PEOPLE is more satisfying than playing against Bots. Reducing people to being glorified Bots would also reduce satisfaction (both sides). More to the point, to keep the game viable and retain ANY Killers, the loss in options would require a massive increase in chasing power to offset. Then people would just be complaining about Killers being too fast, having too accurate hit boxes, and/or having OP Powers. A PvP setup is always a balancing act, and when you remove Player Agency it has less and less wiggle room before it breaks one way or the other.
I know I'm being a bit exhaustive here, but I'm trying to give you the real problems created by trying to take away Player Agency (either role really). As Yords pointed out, if you did try to remove it the game would have to be rebuilt from the ground up and it wouldn't even remotely be the same game. It would be reverse Pac Man, a stilted boring chase game with four Survivors running a simplistic maze chased by a largely mindless Killer constrained to following the only viable patterns at jungle gyms and so on to try and get a down. How long would this interest anyone?
Post edited by Moundshroud on1 -
Here's the problem with your reasoning: You're acting as though the only possible choice killers have is to either chase or camp, and that chasing is nothing more than holding W and following the survivor's trail.
You're ignoring builds, power choice, you're ignoring gen pressure, you're ignoring three gen forcing, you're ignoring gen defense, you're ignoring in-chase choices, you're ignoring everything to simply state that the game comes down to 'choosing whether or not you camp'.
If that were the case, we'd already have no killers. You state that the game thrives on unpredictability, but if it's just 'camping or not camping' that means there's literally only two types of matches, and after playing both, you will never get a new experience. You're acting like all non-camping killers act the -exact- same way.
Yes, I get that killer isn't fun to play due to how limited its gameplay is. But camping isn't fixing that, because camping is taking the potential gameplay and limiting it as much as possible. No, you wouldn't need to rebuild the game from the ground up, although you will need drastic changes, but people are asking for those changes -anyway-. And the existence of one problem doesn't mean you shouldn't solve the other. It's not a zero sum game. Killer gameplay needs fixing? We might as well fix camping while we're at it.
As for your statement about removing camping causing killers to quit, I have an inversion of that assertion for you: Keeping camping in is not going to retain killers. Those that commit to camping are probably not going to stay in the game since they already take the option of not playing it.
It would be reverse Pac Man, a stilted boring chase game with four Survivors running a simplistic maze chased by a largely mindless Killer constrained to following the only viable patterns at jungle gyms and so on to try and get a down. How long would this interest anyone?
Apparently for five years, since the majority of killers don't camp.
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Slowing the hookstate was tried and abused. TWICE. Let me point out how for the 8th time since I joined a week ago.:
Survivor #1 works on gens. #2 and #3 stand 50 yards away, out in the open. In different directions.
This means #2 & #3 cannot be chased; they are too far away. The chase will not start until the Killer is so far from the hook that it's a free unhook. Because whichever Survivor is walked towards will run away, making it take longer to trigger a chase.
The Killer is now FORCED to either camp, because chasing one guy means the other unhooks, with a Struggle meter penalty giving Survivor #1 extra time to solo generators. Or walk away & let a Survivor unhook.
This means the Killer NO LONGER HAS PLAYER AGENCY. The GAME is telling him he has to allow a free unhook, or be punished. He no longer gets to decide if camping is a good strategy now. The game, uncaring, flips him the middle finger. EVEN THROUGH TWO SURIVORS ARE CLEARLY READY TO UNHOOK.
THAT is what people are asking for with this stupid 'suggestion'. For the Killer to no longer decide what he can do. For Survivors to be gift-wrapped free unhooks from a mechanic, because if the Killer tries to defend the hook, WHICH IS THE SMART PLAY WITH TWO SURVIVORS NEARBY, then the Struggle Meter is slowed.
And you don't deserve a free unhook just because you stomp your feet and go 'Buh camping baaaaad! Bad man not give me my unhooks!'
This is a PvP game. My goal, as a Killer, is to KILL YOU. Not pat you on the head and say 'Go unhook them, champ! I'll go hide until you unhook, and heal, and go gens for 80 seconds.'
STOP ASKING FOR CAMPING PUNISHMENTS. IT'S JUST A THINLY-VIELED ATTEMPT TO FORCE UNHOOKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE LOSING. THE KILLER IS A GODS DAMNED PLAYER, TOO; STOP DICTATING HOW THEY PLAY.
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Actually, no I'm not. I address each of those things and where they fall in the chase versus camp dichotomy. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't trying to play rhetorical games to change the subject and simply missed that. Most Killers don't camp, but they have the option. It is the choice, the Player Agency that matters. You are still NOT providing additional options, seeking only to limit the Players in the Killer role. That is a mistake, has been tried multiple times, and demonstrates your bias. That is the difference between you and I. I am aware of my bias and offset for it. You don't.
You have decided on the outcome you want and are not engaging in actual debate with me. That isn't a very productive way to approach it. Let's start hearing some specific policy and mechanics from you. What are your actual suggestions so we can analyze how they will work, if they are any different from what has already been tested (and let me tell you... the DEV have tested a lot of options), and the trade offs of them. Unlike you, I am more than willing to eat crow and accept a viewpoint other than mine if it can be shown to work. Right now, you are showing us NOTHING other than you repeating over and over again what you WANT. That is a far cry from showing us how it will work.
Another difference between us is that I actually offer suggestions and examples of how to give Killers alternate options (choices) to achieve the goal you claim to want. Do you see the irony in that? I don't support your opinion, but I at least make a good faith attempt to talk about how to achieve the goals you want via alternative methods. You do not.
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The Killer is now FORCED to either camp, because chasing one guy means the other unhooks, with a Struggle meter penalty giving Survivor #1 extra time to solo generators. Or walk away & let a Survivor unhook.
Oh no, not the anti-camping mechanism making camping an ineffective strategy!
Hey, if that's considered abuse of the anti-camping measure, can we also have killers forced to declare they're approaching you when they have undetectable? Since it's kinda abusing undetectable if you sneak up on someone undetected.
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