Camping, Tunneling, and slugging should never be punished

You're ignoring everything to get to that point; The Killer should not be punished for 'camping' when two people are clearly waiting for an unhook.

Why are Survivors so thick that they can't understand this? All they think is 'Camping = bad!' and that every unhook = good, so forcing free unhooks is perfectly balanced. Because they benefit.

The Killer is a player, his goal is to kill you. To. Kill. You. TO KILL YOU.

Should I say it slower? TOOOOO KILLLLLL YOUUUUUU.

So no, he should not be punished because you don't like HOW he is trying to, and say it with me: TO 👏 KILL 👏 YOU 👏.

This is as stupid as Killers demanding Survivors get punished for doing gens; it's the objective. The other side, being biased, does not decide how you do it.

Git fregging gud.

On the contrary, I can disprove that myself. I have fun in every game I play, whether I am camped or camp. Those are just tactics, nothing more and nothing less. The game is the fun, the challenge, not the specific things done inside a match. For the record, whenever I enter an extended debate with someone, I want to fully understand their context, the way their mind works. That way I don't assume too much without seeing the evidence. As such, I go read all their posts. Yours first started to hit the board in March, and your very first day you were already complaining about stuff. You didn't even know the game yet, but you knew what you disliked. You have to realize how entitled that is right?

Your posts vary from Lore to a long litany of complaints that when actually laid out and graphed show your bias is horrible. I'm not going to do that to you right now, because it is a bit petty this early in our discussion. I just want you to be aware that I'm a thorough kind of guy in everything I do. When I talk about the game, I'm talking about it from all sides. I am interested in the fairness and fun for all involved and weigh things against viability and balance, not my personal preferences. If I were to base everything on my personal preferences, my arguments would be very different.

In your defense, you aren't a Sluzzy. Your posts aren't all one note, and there are some that impressed me. I think if you turned your very agile mind to this problem in an unbiased way, you would probably come up with some really good ideas. I just think you need to take your blinders off. For better for for worse, camping is part of this game because tactics are nothing but Player Agency, and this game only turns on agency. The entire engine and setup is based on it. I know we are getting deep here, but I assure you that I am not blowing smoke up your behind. If you want more fun, then you have to be part of the solution. You and I (and anyone else serious) have to come up with workable options, actual feedback that the DEV can use which hasn't already been tried.

I am of the opinion that rewards, and expanding Killer options is the best way to go. Barbecue & Chili, for example, is a Perk which has been a glorious success in that it incentivizes Killers to leave the hook. Without it, camping would be far more common. If we look at that success, and extrapolate on it, I'm sure you and I (and many others) could come up with additional things which would expand Killer options and the viability of Search & Destroy.

This is a good post, because it touches on something that is a potential solution to the frustration of being on the hook. We can't remove the hook, nor the Killer's agency to defend it, but what can be done is increase the play involved for the person on it. Right now you just struggle and wait, passively (short of having Deliverance or loaded up luck) to be rescued. I submit a game within a game for the person on the hook might be an option, something complex, challenging and interactive to pass that time. It might even lead to getting oneself off the hook, buying that extended time, and so on. That is an avenue that I don't think has been fully explored. I think perhaps it should be, because if the chief complaint of those being camped is being bored those two minutes, a game within the game, some bit of hope and effort, might go a long way.

We will have to agree to disagree about camping being bad for game play. I would, politely, suggest that you don't know enough about it to make that assumption. Anyone can squat at a hook, but experienced Killers are using a wide variety of camping and honey-potting tactics to not only get downs, but also to pressure generators and gather information. Camping isn't cut and dried, it is a skillset which actually does require finesse to use properly. I'm going to be blunt; you are new and you aren't well-rounded. That isn't a crime; we all start that way. But it does color your viewpoints and blinds you with bias.

Camping forces different kinds of play and tactics from both Killers AND Survivors. Some of the most exciting play, and satisfying is making that rescue from a camping Killer. It happens every day, probably five or six times in just the time you read this post. I've done it, and had it done to me. Having to tackle the additional obstacles of a tough rescue on top of getting Generators powered, and totems cleansed ups the ante. You seem to only look at it as a negative, where I look at conflict and challenge as an expansion of the game. The difference between us is you see camping as an endpoint because you are new and really not very good at countering it. People who can counter it (and do regularly) aren't nearly as put out.

All that aside, dumbing down a game by removing options never helps. I'm glad we agree that incentivizing the Killers and providing them more options is a good way to go. I respect that you cede that point; it means that you are open to finding solutions. That will outweigh anything else. The next step is looking at the history, what has been tried, and what has failed. We have to look at what has worked, and we have to set aside our personal bias. It might surprise you to know that my own bias isn't that different from yours. I also hate (well hated) being camped. My opinion of it changed in time as my experiences broadened. I know it will sound condescending for me to say (and for that I apologize) but yours will too.

Another poster (and your thoughts as well) have brought to mind that if the chief complaint you (and many others) have is boredom on the hook, why don't we look at a game within a game, more options and choices and challenges for that person on the hook. Clearly that is a potential solution if you are being honest about why being hooked bothers you. It may be we have ALL been going about this the wrong way in talking about how to punish or reward the Killer when the best solution might simply be giving the hooked person something to do and look at OTHER than everyone else playing the game. :)

Fair enough; if incentives has been your point from the beginning (and I missed it) you have my apology. Oddly enough, my new Feedback post is in part inspired by your posts and Johnny_Xman. I recalled that you talked about the game Little Nightmares in some of your earlier posts (a game we have both played) and that one also has games within a game. It seems to me that the initial Hook stage should stay as it it now, because the Entity hasn't been summoned yet.... however...

2nd Stage when the Entity has been summoned could be an entirely different story. While we see the Survivor struggling to keep from being skewered by the hideous, sharp legs what if what the Survivor sees is a mini-game entirely inside a his/her own mind, a spiritual construct where they are solving puzzles, or being chased, or perhaps even fighting something. Their successes inside this mini-game could extend the length of that 2nd Stage. *For the record, I've NEVER been against having the hook time extended, I just think it should be earned somehow by the person on it or the Survivors around (like that Steve Perk). I don't think it should have anything to do with how close the Killer is in proximity to the hook as that goes back to trying punishments (which were always abused).

Now consider this, a game is going on for the Survivor starting in 2nd Stage where they can extend their time. It could certainly be made interesting and not conflict with the spaghetti code as it is game within the game. A face camping Killer might sit there for a LONG time while others worked the Generators or worked out rescues if the person inside the game within a game is putting up a good fight. The key being IF... there is no such thing as a free lunch. Extra time would have to be hard fought and earned. And best of all, the Survivor in this mini-game can be earning BP or Advancement, and perhaps even bits of Lore if puzzles and clues occur.

I'm getting far ahead of myself as the mini-game needs to be carefully considered, but I think it is a good place to start and I would NOT have thought of it without your Little Nightmares context and Johnny_Xman's post.

There is no reason to get rid of TUNNELING. It is also strategy to kill survivors quickly.

Camping, tunneling, and slugging, should cost the killer perk slots. Why do they get to perform such scummy tactics for free?

Barbecue & Chili just makes it stupid simple to (indirectly) tunnel two survivors out of the game by reading auras, seeing who's injured, and then focusing them; bouncing back and forth until two survivors are out of the game. The aura reading either needs to be replaced with location bubbles, or show gen progress auras instead. If not, then remove the extra Bloodpoints bonus and put it into a new/different perk. Why should killers be handed such strong intel on a platter (just for playing the game) AND get bonus points on top of it?? Meanwhile, We're Gonna Live Forever requires suicidng into the killer, so you either die with many stacks and little points or with no stacks and many points (i.e. no substantial gain/difference in points, unlike BBQ killers). Pathetic

It suffices to say that our experiences with this Perk are very different. Moreover, the overall performance of this Perk has actually decreased camping by a significant degree. Barbeque & Chili only shows the aura of Survivors far off, with more than enough time to be gone from the area by the time the Killer arrives. Moreover, there is plenty of counter play to the Perk if you "choose" to hide from it. I rarely do as I want the Killer moving away from the hook, i.e. me doing my part for the team and helping achieve a safe rescue. The DEV understand the value and the behavior they want to encourage which is exactly why they throw that BP bonus on top. As to WGLF, that is an entirely different topic and if you want to complain about that it probably requires its own thread. Shoehorning it into this discussion in this way is kind of desperate.

I suspect you and I will have to agree to disagree on Barbeque & Chili which is considered by most to be extremely successful Perk and does a lot of good for both Killers and Survivors. :)

Hrm. I can't say I automatically disagree. I'll cede the point, I'm not a hypocrite, that bubbles would do the same job as the flash of auras. I think you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole with this idea that it is being used to tunnel people out and select injured over uninjured. I play Killer at the highest level and I've never used it that way. :) I'm not saying there might not be people that do, but I am saying that I doubt it is common enough to warrant the intensity of your reaction.

Even so, I think a Feedback thread discussion started to suggest that slight change isn't a bad idea. It in no way would lessen the positive impact of Barbeque & Chili so I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it does prevent the rare abuse, all the better. I do think, however, that hyperbole reactions do more to harm someone's arguments than help them. When you state something is causing the sky to fall, when it is not, they will tune out the rest of what you say even when it might be good. In your case, I think you have a solid suggestion. I just think the delivery needs work.

Let's not split hairs here; you imply it by the context. The post I answered made Barbeque & Chili sound like this horrible, abused Perk. :) If you didn't mean to say it was making the sky fall, but merely that it "could" I'm suggesting you overshot your mark. But like I said, I agree that your suggestion has merit. You should make it in its own thread so it has a chance of being seen rather than ignored in this endless thread which I doubt they even follow anymore. :)

Translation: I'm a Survivor main & I want free unhooks.

Guess what? Camping only works if you stop doing gens. Survivors don't deserve to unhook someone just because they want it really, really hard. Shocking, I know.

But every 'punish camping' thread is actually some variation of the following statement:

'I want to unhook that person, but the Killer won't move. Now, I could continue to do gens, and pressure the Killer away from the hook. Or, I can blame the Killer for doing his objective, ignore my own mistakes, and demand the devs force the Killer to move away from the hook.'

I mean, hate me if you want; this is what every 'punish camping/slugging/tunneling' thread is, at its core. 🤷

Extending hook times would not help the health of the game. What Killers remain would quit en-masse.

Survivors would have the 4 perks meta, SWF with voice comms, and then an easily abuseable mechanic that gives them free unhooks because it punishes Killers in a way they can, as I've said, abuse.

Killers would be forced to give up hooks even in situations where camping is needed to slow down gen speeds. While Survivors keep banging out gens in under 5 minutes.

There would be no reason to play Killer anymore, because the game would be so lopsided towards Survivors. So don't give me that 'health of the game' tripe. Either you have no idea what's really good for the game, or you are just trying to push for a mechanic you know is broken so you can abuse it.