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Can DS Even Still Be Considered Meta?
It goes without saying that old DS was simply unhealthy for the game. It was a pure minute of invincibility from being hooked no matter what you did. There is not a doubt in my mind or anybody else's (hopefully) that old DS was the most meta perk in the game.
Earlier today I got called a meta survivor for using DS and I was running it with WGLF, we'll make it, and lithe. I could see being called a meta survivor if I had dead hard, iron will, DS, and unbreakable but that's just not the case. Even in solo queue I don't run builds like that.
At the end of the day can DS even be considered meta anymore? In my eyes it is 60 seconds of stun protection granted that you're legitimately being tunneled by the killer. If not wanting to have a match where you get insta tunneled out and have no fun is meta, than I take no shame in being a meta survivor while running we'll make it and lithe.
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DS is only as meta as tunneling. as long as tunneling is strong, so is DS and BT.
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I will agree that as long as tunneling is seen as a strategy then DS is meta but personally I see tunneling as an liability rather than an asset against SWF’s.
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yes.
because meta =/= most used perk.
meta = Most Effective Tactic Avaiable.
and DS is still one of the best perks in the game. it's just not the "undisputed king" anymore
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Yes.
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The DS we have nowadays is a complete shadow of its 2019 and especially its 2018 self. I see no problem with using it in the slightest, its a fair perk nowadays.
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Tunneling or better to focus a survivor is the strongest strategy. Most lose with it bc they wait for the unhook to tunnel. But while the survivor is hooked you need to pressure the other 3 survivor. In the best case you focus two survivor. While the one is hooked you chase the other. This is better bc you avoid ds and bt. But without this perks tunneling after unhook would be the best strategy. For Killer like nurse or spirit that dont care that you gain distance or reach a loop with this perks immediately tunneling is also the best strategy.
Another thing why tunneling seems weak is bc most survivor normally dont play it safe. They are to greedy and you get hits. But the same survivor will play it absolutely safe if he gets tunneled and this makes chasing him a lot harder.
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It goes without saying that old DS was simply unhealthy for the game. It was a pure minute of invincibility from being hooked no matter what you did. There is not a doubt in my mind or anybody else's (hopefully) that old DS was the most meta perk in the game.Right.
Earlier today I got called a meta survivor for using DS and I was running it with WGLF, we'll make it, and lithe. I could see being called a meta survivor if I had dead hard, iron will, DS, and unbreakable but that's just not the case. Even in solo queue I don't run builds like that.All the perks you just listed are considered meta. These are all perks that every survivor runs as well.
- Lithe
This is literally a clutch/exhausted perk, perks so strong they have a game mechanic to limit them. Are you serious, or just trolling when you think this is not meta?
- WGLF
This is again, the strongest BP perk for Survivors man. It also allows you to get cheeky heals that aren't always possible on downed survivors due to 100% increase healing rate on them. Of course this is meta as well. (0_0)
- We'll Make It
This did take a hit after Borrowed Time's buff but it is still meta.
Before this perk was arguable better then Borrowed time, as it allowed near instant heals off hook, and could be used in great effect with other perks and medikits, top that with the fact unlike old borrowed time it always would proc then you have a serious contender. Now, all of the but the last part applies as now Borrowed time instantly procs as well. So now the two are pretty even as they're both will be better or worse then the other situationally.
At the end of the day can DS even be considered meta anymore? In my eyes it is 60 seconds of stun protection granted that you're legitimately being tunneled by the killer. If not wanting to have a match where you get insta tunneled out and have no fun is meta, than I take no shame in being a meta survivor while running we'll make it and lithe.Of course it is still meta, in fact I love being tunneled because that means you are the only one playing the game while everyone else is sitting they're playing loading bar simulator on a gen. In fact, DS will be outright game changing in alot of situations. DS is a Cluch perk as well.
For reference, all gens can be done in less then 3 minutes, and all gens normally are done in roughly 5 - 10 depending on how good the survivors are and the killer. This is of course not accounting for the time survivors running too the gens, and also is assuming the survivors aren't doing dumb things and wasting time IE: healing when they're is no need too (Sorta redundant as you are talking about tunneling so I would assume no one is getting hit often), failing skill checks, ect.
So it basically allow you to take the killer on 4 chases instead of one, if all chases last 1 minute then you got that grace period out of DS. If you ever made a mistake instead of being punished for it, you will be released and gain a extra life via DS. The gens will be done very quickly so while you may die, you still won the game really.
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I kinda wish it wasn't an instant take away though... But it can be strong to the players who Tunnel a lot or get Tunneled a lot
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you can use at least a dozen of better perks, so no, it’s not meta.
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Any perks survivor use are meta smh
No that isn’t a meta build despite what some people say.
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As long as survivors keep complaining about tunneling, DS is a meta perk.
But also does it really matter if the perks you are running are meta or not?
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DS was not completely unhealthy for the game. How many times did you spent 10-15 minutes waiting for a game as a solo survivor, only to have the killer camp and tunnel you out of the game without any way to stop it from happening? The change that should have been made was that if the killer hooked someone else, it deactivated. It's literally the opposite of tunneling. I played eight games the other day, and the killer camped and tunneled every single person on seven of those games. So sure. DS is the problem, not killers that have no skill and make the game unplayable for most people.
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stop jebaiting us saying lithe is meta compared to dead hard or sprint burst☠️☠️☠️ Bye
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I'll go you one further, should we care if it (or any) Perk is Meta. Ideally no Perk should be so good that it is Meta. That is the goal we should be striving to achieve. If DS is no longer so-called, Meta, I say good. :)
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This is exactly why the person who you were talking to likely thought less of you.
Stop bsing people with questions you don't want answers to. Sorry that the facts of situations turned out not to be what you want to hear.
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It's because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I was asking about DS, not lithe. You're the only one implying anybody thinks less of me, may I remind you that this is a video game we're talking about, it's not that deep. If you're going to imply things that have nothing to do with the topic and only insulting me as a person don't expect a serious response. That's why I responded the way I did. Hope this helps.
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Fair but this causes issues.
All meta is (at least commonly) are the things in games, be it perks, or killers, or anything that is a core mechanism in games (least with this loose definition) that are much better then then most other perks, ect of its kind.
So if there was not "meta", then the game would be completely balanced to such a degree that nothing will give any advantage.
This of course will never happen, even if we rework every thing, there will always be a "meta", just instead you will have only certain things meta that weren't before. They're always MUST be an objective "meta" in a game. If they're isn't then it must defy logic, because then the game would need to be so perfectly balanced to the point of everything is not better then anything else.
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IMO they should remove the timer
like it’s not anti tunnel if there’s an extremely short timer
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It's because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I was asking about DS, not lithe.Ok if I don't know what I am talking about, then reply to what I said and give a valid counter argument instead of a red herring.
More so, Regardless of what you directly asked, they're was a claim by a opposing party (IE: someone called you "Meta Survivor" according to you), and thus is justified as you are using some of the best perks in the game in different categories.
With that said, I don't think using any meta is wrong either though. So the fact that you got so butt hurt about it, you decided to post what someone did and made a post just so people can agree with your line of thinking is beyond me. This is of course an assumption, one I would reckon entirely valid considering when I answered the question your hostile reply.
You're the only one implying anybody thinks less of me, may I remind you that this is a video game we're talking about, it's not that deep.Clearly I was talking about
"Earlier today I got called a meta survivor for using".0 -
60 seconds is one hook state or 3/4 of a gen. That's not "extremely short".
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Lmao, then it would be stupidly overpowered. You would basically do just as well as giving the survivors an extra life after you are hooked.
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If you’re being chased directly off hook yes it is short. You don’t just stop getting tunneled after 60 seconds if a killer wants to tunnel they’ll tunnel you all match. Or it should at least pause while you’re in chase
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If you have chases that last much longer than 60 seconds, then either the killer is bad (in which case you don't need DS), or you found an area that needs fixing (in which case you should report it).
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I would give a serious reply but it is obvious that YOU are the one who is bothered by my post. If I truly cared I'd go to the DBD survivor side of tik tok and get everyone to say how DS should be reverted to old DS and so on. I asked the forum a question, you answered something that sounded like a jebait because nearly nobody in this community would define lithe as meta. Sorry you can't see that. You sound extremely entitled in the way you speak, thinking that your opinion is superior so I decided to mess with you. Nothing more, nothing less, but I promise you that if I was butt-hurt over something in a video game like DBD I would visit a therapist, not the DBD forums.
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At that point you have to blame your teammate for not micromanaging hook states though...
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Okay but I’m still the one who’s punished and depipped
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Or the survivor is playing properly with the base kit while not making mistakes, excluding perks and you aren't playing a killer that can disrupt them (IE: Nurse, Spirit)
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I read the first sentence before I realized this was just another red herring, reply to the argument or don't.
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In which case you don't need DS. There are many more alternatives (killer is intoxicated, killer is being kicked in the genitals by their offspring, killer's keyboard is failing), but the end result is the same: you either don't need DS, or you encountered something that needs to be fixed (i.e.: removed).
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Yup, that is what happens when killers aren't happy as they're much weaker then survivors however you have a game in which the emblem system in balanced towards matches that last and a number of goals that can't normally be fulfilled due to this.
(IE: Its incredibly hard to do chase AND gens as a survivor. So its not often you get both.)
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Bestie, let's leave it be. I'm taking the high road because you're skull is dense. Have a pleasant evening though!
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Not at all, but if you do make any mistakes, then its really nice to have. Likely will save you if you do have it, if you were to continue these mistakes as you have a free life. A free mistake that you aren't being punished for.
You know, like dead hard, instaheal medikits, ect.
As long as you are even a ok survivor you can rely on your loops, and when you make a mistake as this meh survivor, your perks and items are here to make it better as long as you space out your mistakes.
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Deflection and a red herring.
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If you're prone to making mistakes, you'll get to use DS long before the 60 seconds are up.
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Omg I love those perks :p
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Nope, because again, loops are incredibly safe mostly and gen times are very short.
Again, if you understand the loops, you don't need to be very good as a survivor. You just need to be able to space out your mistakes so you aren't punished for them harshly as they're are tools you can use and if used effectively you will do fine.
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A red herring for a red herring. This is a first.
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Hmm I didn't know you could use two red herrings in one survivor loadout!
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It's not meta. It's significantly weaker now and there are much better alternatives that are both more versatile and difficult for the killer to deal with.
BT, IW, Lucky Break and Fixated. All far outclass DS imo.
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Red herring.
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Fixated is only good if you are running Sprint Burst. Even then, it's mid.
DS is still a great perk.
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No, but that's kind of the idea. No metas means more diversity of perk, although they may have put the throttle a little too far on the DS nerf. They just made it a lot more situational.
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I didn't say it was a bad perk.
I don't know man. Fixated allows you to setup fast vaults almost next to the window. I run it in all my games and it's a better chase extender than dead hard against good killers. I'm firm that it's better than ds. Dependant on the playstyle I suppose.
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What do you classify exactly when you say "meta"? BT isn't even a chase perk, its a hook perk, nor is Fixated, nor is Lucky Break.
Out of what you just said, Borrowed Time, and Iron Will are the only ones that most could consider meta.
Iron will because it consistently will help you vs some of the best killers, and allows for a lot of mind game protentional.
Borrowed Time because it gives a extra life off hook for a few seconds, extending chase if killer is near.
With that being said Fixated is just as gimmicky as Lucky Break, both being perks not directly used for chase but used to avoid it, these can't be considered meta because they're is no reason a survivor should use these perks if they're looking for the best builds or if they are an ok survivor due to how strong most loops are and the survivors base kit being so great.
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It was in a descending order. I'd say meta is being the most strong and versatile which in turn makes it popular. BT and IW topping this. Kindred for solo q comes to mind too.
I threw fixated in because since its buff its ability to use in chase is really good. Like really really good. You can fake a window being an incorrect decision and still have enough time to setup a fast vault and have the killer not get the hit anyway.
Lucky Break probably going to be nerfed because it's too good. Anyone can escape the killer using this.
Substitute them for Adrenaline and Dead Hard then. Just threw in some other perks than the obvious.
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I'd say meta is being the most strong and versatile which in turn makes it popular.Hm, I agree with the definition, however how are those perks listed before versatile, and for some of them strong?
I threw fixated in because since its buff its ability to use in chase is really good. Like really really good. You can fake a window being an incorrect decision and still have enough time to setup a fast vault and have the killer not get the hit anyway.It is too gimmicky though?
Lucky Break probably going to be nerfed because it's too good. Anyone can escape the killer using this.I strongly disagree with this sentiment, and I main killer and rarely argue for Survivor. Remember, they're are perks that literally give you a extra live in chase, I think it is too gimmicky and that a killer who understands the game will easily find survivors that are using these perks.
Substitute them for Adrenaline and Dead Hard then. Just threw in some other perks than the obvious.Those are meta too though?
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I disagree; there is another status quo that you are disregarding, and I submit is it the one that we are far more likely to achieve. Perfect balance is impossible, something to strive for but one must accept that it is a Utopian pipe dream. What we can achieve is enough variation in Killers, Maps, random spawn, and Perks that you can gain advantages, but different Builds compliment different Players and situations more. For example, when I play Survivor I do not run DS (never cared for it much), Dead Hard (also don't care for it), nor do I run any other Exhaustion Perk regularly.
My most common Survivor Build is:
Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, Iron Will, and a Wildcard (whatever Perk I think compliments the job I mean to take on in the group).
*Sometimes I take on Deliverance, Self Care, Lucky Break, Saboteur, etc. That fourth slot varies a lot. Looking at my base Build you would think I'm an "immersion" style Player who hides all the time. I'm not; I actually spend my time about 50/50 either doing Generators and safe rescues versus Looping. I don't take the so-called Meta Perks for Looping because they don't do that much. I've found that effective Looping is 90% the Player and while getting a 2nd Chance now and then was nice, it wasn't worth the Perk slot to me. So, I either get away up front or I don't. I rely on my peers to come save me and hopefully return the favors I do them.
Some would say that Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, and Iron Will are Meta Perks now. They have certainly improved in popularity. I can remember when people used to ask me why I'm wasting a slot of Calm Spirit. :) They don't ask that anymore so I guess word got around. My point is that I made real trade offs to find the list that suits my particular type of play best. There are people who Loop 100% of the time and for them Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and DS are certainly stronger choices. The ideal status quo we want is for there to be Perks that aren't Meta for the game overall, but Meta for specific Players.
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How though? How do you track a survivor that has no scratch marks, no blood and no grunts. Stridor spirit maybe and a good prediction on nurse. Have you seen the gameplay on the PTB?
This isn't your thread and you've argued against everybody in this thread aha.
You say you rarely argue for survivor because you main killer. That's all well and good but look how quickly you dismissed what I said about Fixated. Hell you didn't even address it. You just repeated yourself.
The OP's question was is DS still meta. I'm saying no because it's weaker than these perks I aformentioned when it used to be up the top.
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This guy just wants to argue with people and insist he is correct. I promise you, people this dense aren’t worth your time. But I did have a good laugh at his attempts LMAO.
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I disagree; there is another status quo that you are disregarding, and I submit is it the one that we are far more likely to achieve. Perfect balance is impossible, something to strive for but one must accept that it is a Utopian pipe dream. What we can achieve is enough variation in Killers, Maps, random spawn, and Perks that you can gain advantages, but different Builds compliment different Players and situations more. For example, when I play Survivor I do not run DS (never cared for it much), Dead Hard (also don't care for it), nor do I run any other Exhaustion Perk regularly.Oddly, you started with a fair point however upon thinking about it I realize what you said didn't make sense. Is it not that this is an "Utopian pipe dream", it is just balance. Your argument is like perfection vs "perfection". Sure, one is possible, and one not humanly possible, however commonly we refer to the humanly variation because to even contemplate a "perfect" or something being "balanced" breaks reason. This is exactly why I specifically stated they're must always be a meta regardless of how much more advantageous, they're objectively WILL be a meta for they're not to be you must break logic.
*Sometimes I take on Deliverance, Self Care, Lucky Break, Saboteur, etc. That fourth slot varies a lot. Looking at my base Build you would think I'm an "immersion" style Player who hides all the time. I'm not; I actually spend my time about 50/50 either doing Generators and safe rescues versus Looping. I don't take the so-called Meta Perks for Looping because they don't do that much. I've found that effective Looping is 90% the Player and while getting a 2nd Chance now and then was nice, it wasn't worth the Perk slot to me. So, I either get away up front or I don't. I rely on my peers to come save me and hopefully return the favors I do them.The "looping perks", I am not sure what you are talking about specifically. I believe Dead Hard, ect and those however. IF that is the case you are just objectively wrong, how would they not help? They outright extend chase more then normal, in many a case even giving you a second life.
The base kit is surely strong enough, so its not that you are using different perks that help you more. Its just you have only proved to yourself that you don't really need perks as a Survivor due to how strong the Survivor base kit is. This is not really news to me. In any case, personal preference plays no role in objective truths.
Some would say that Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, and Iron Will are Meta Perks now. They have certainly improved in popularity. I can remember when people used to ask me why I'm wasting a slot of Calm Spirit. :) They don't ask that anymore so I guess word got around. My point is that I made real trade offs to find the list that suits my particular type of play best. There are people who Loop 100% of the time and for them Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and DS are certainly stronger choices. The ideal status quo we want is for there to be Perks that aren't Meta for the game overall, but Meta for specific Players.You've gotten very... philosophical, with this last part.
I've done my absolute best to reply to you with grand consideration as I don't believe you are being dishonest and in doing so I think I understand you. I however do think they're is problems with your reasoning.
Firstly, you are trying to treat meta as a conception subjectively and that hurts to think about, I think you just are either using a VERY loose definition for the word "meta" or you mean to use a different word all together. I would define "Meta", as the strongest X things in a game (in this conversation), that lead to the common goal of winning and/or a outcome that is most preferable to a goal similar. I find this is a easy way determining if something is objectively meta or not.
For example, in Chess they're are objectively "meta" moves. They can be the difference between a pawn, or a queen but in any case, these moves typically end up with the computer winning 100% of the time vs even the best humans. Moves get so accurate that 0.X material gain is a significant change in a game where whole values are the tool for calculation in any gave situation in which you are winning or losing.
Therefore if you use a perk like Dead Hard, you objectively must be using a "meta" perk as if you are chased or not your main goal is Gens and you can only do them if you are not downed/killed. So with that logic regardless of play or situation, an extra life would help much more to this goal then something like Calm spirit that allows mind games because Calm Sprit regardless of playstyle does not directly contribute to chase and therefore is not as good as Deadhard as it does not guarantee extra lives based on its very nature nor is it directly guaranteed to contribute to the goal of "winning".
You can apply this reasoning to literally anything in anything, every perk in a game, the objective best way to even do small tasks like picking something off the floor. Sure, a old man using a stick might be much easier for him to pick up something on the floor, and you can consider that his personal "meta" for picking things off the floor, however it is not THE meta way to pick up things if we assume it takes him 5 seconds to do that but a human without any handicap, it would take 3 seconds without a stick. I hope that makes you see what I mean?
They're always must be a objective goal if we can agree on the subjective ruleset(s)/wanted outcomes.
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