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The design of the game causes anger. Maybe the game should be more freeform / chill?
So I load up DBD and play a high-tier killer with super-duper addons and meta perks, or I join in as an efficient SWF to split-pressure generators efficiently. Then I get tons of complaints (sometimes very nasty rage) in the chat from the other side about sweatiness or how rank 1 gameplay isn't fun. While there is pride in mastering the nuances of strategic gameplay, the constant high-intensity nature wears people down overtime. I get the sense that a lot of people want the game to not be so high intensity 100% of the time:
--As a survivor, getting tunneled or slugged for minutes on end isn't so engaging, but it creates much-needed pressure for generator defense.
--As a killer, you're constantly about to pop a blood vessel panicked that generators in far corners of the map are going to complete and that you won't get there in time.
--As a survivor, you're angry at your teammates all the time that they are immersed, crouching in corners not doing generators. Anyone who gets caught too easily, purposely dies on hook, or DCs is a whole wealth of frustration.
--As a killer, you worry that if you go this corner of the map, you won't find a survivor and that 3 gens are going to pop suddenly. One chase or patrol that goes slightly south at the start often means game over.
--As a survivor, you have to hold M1 on gens as much as possible; no real chance to take a break and do something more interesting in between sometimes without feeling guilty that you're harming your team.
Basically, the main draw of DBD is having fun in chases or playing cat and mouse with the killer. Many people find this aspect very fun. But the game's win or loss pivot revolves around generators which are not so fun in many ways. Having them be a fixed win condition creates a deep frustration when its not mathematically possible in certain situations to apply adequate split pressure, or when your teammates want to goof around a bit rather than doing the objective in the most-efficient manner possible.
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Over the years there's been a bunch of buffs/nerfs to power levels of survivors and killers, but actual fundamental gameplay changes to the objectives in the game haven't really come about much. While people make a lot of threads talking about gen speeds and such, perhaps the question shouldn't be about how to fine tune & tweak the current objective-based gameplay, but how to make objectives matter less so people can do other activities that are more fun and relaxing. Objectives can still exist, but perhaps they should nudge the game towards a conclusion, rather than strictly defining winning or losing (i.e. doing gens will make the game end faster, rather than being the focal point that ends the game then and there).
In general, I think that if there was more freedom to the gameplay loop, we'd have a more chill, but fun experience all around. For example if my teammates are just teabagging not doing the objective, there is a long route I can still personally take to escape; or if survivors are gen rushing with 4x BNP, I as the low-tier M1 killer could optionally work towards something other than pure generator defense to make the game enter a different phase and still give a window of time to have interesting chases.
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There is a very narrow efficient meta and set of tactics to win, but I feel like people aren't having fun doing it.
Is it a conversation worth having? Thoughts?
Comments
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DbD's design forces players to be as uninteractive as possible. Survivors rush gens with zero input from the killer (and with rather terrifying ease). Killers attempt to retaliate by playing killers with high mobility and an uninteractive chase (that decimates everyone but actual genrushers).
And people out there just play to win in a very casual game. If you find that fun, you do you, but... It really is a problem with the matchmaking that a seperated casual and ranked mode will not solve. At best, MMR will come out and only let the competitive players go against other competitive players. Because it's not fun to load into a trial and get steamrolled by players treating every trial of DbD like Siege. I'm sorry comp players, but that's just how it is. And I know many of you reading this don't do that, but too many do and see no problem with it. And I'm not saying this to target the people that play strong killers or in an efficient SWF, I'm saying this to the people that only do that and genuinely don't understand why the community doesn't like it.
Until they rework the core mechanics of this game, mostly gens but also map layouts and certain killer powers, "high-level" play is just going to be an extremely frustrating and uninteractive experience that the entire community is exposed to thanks to terrible matchmaking.
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Siege is a good example of why ranked/casual wouldn't be the answer a lot of people think it would, people will sweat and smurf in casual and throw in ranked
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Personally, I wish we'd get several PTB tests where they throw out random changes to the core mechanics of the game (cloning a build right after a release with some tweaks). Many other studios when faced with potentially risky restructuring changes of their games would do just that to try and find possible leads on the future direction of their games.
Right now, the occasional PTB tests often only showcase a minor early-access look at an upcoming killer. I feel as though more could be done with them (i.e. wacky experiments).
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It really is. I had to quit because casual and unranked was full of teams that were "winding up" or "winding down".
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Maybe the solution is to stop playing games with the assumption that anyone who does their best to win is 'sweaty' or a 'tryhard'. There are people who do derive their enjoyment from playing their best. Not everyone wants to play chill.
I know, y'all ain't tryin to hear that. But it's true. Not every game needs to be chill and casual.
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This is dangerously close to "just play Civilization" XD
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It is not close to that in any way, shape or form. But what you are saying is that people who want to play hard don't deserve to have a fun game. You are dismissing those with different ideas of fun than you.
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Well that's what I do every game. I play my best and if I see an opportunity to snowball things into an early 4 man slug, I go for it. Or if I see that the situation requires me to play a bit of defense with 1 hooked + 1 other down, I do that. (for certain killers, its do this or basically lose) On the survivor side, being a distracting/harasser is indeed a role to play in SWF. If you want the killer to come at you, sometimes pointing and crouch dancing is a way to get them to chase you so other teammates can heal/do gens/find totems.
But in the post-game chat (like 9/10 times), I get yelled at saying that I shouldn't do that or that I'm a terrible person ruining people's games. I just feel that there is a disconnect between what the playerbase wants from their matches vs what the game gives them if people want to climb ranks as best as possible.
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I didn't say anything close to that
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Pay the insults no heed. That is just people who are upset that they lost. They'd be upset no matter what you did.
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Oh really? Let's examine that claim.
Here's where I said 'let people play hard without getting shamed and insulted'
And here's where you dismissed that idea with a backhanded insult. So what were you trying to say, since I misunderstood you. I'm not sure how else to take your post. Help me understand.
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My point was you are saying not every game needs to be chill and casual, the next extension to that is, go and play a game that is chill and casual, or the classic "Go play civilization" quote.
I'm not at all saying anything what you just said I did, but OP listed a lot of valid reasons as to why DBDs game design can result in anger. He's not even saying he wants the game to be more casual necessarily, he's trying to start a conversation around the design of the game, and you are basically implying that the fact the game could cause anger and frustration is totally cool.
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LOL man how is me saying what you are saying is close to saying something else even close to an insult. It's really not. If you think so, then you get easily offended, I'm afraid to tell you.
Also, you then proceeded to totally put an argument in my mouth (maybe that was aimed at OP) which I did not say at all, I mean is that also an insult then?
Also, btw perhaps you are not aware of the "play civilization" quote which sort of became a meme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRMd7aQ5v4), I was riffing off that.
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It is totally cool. If you never feel anything, that means there is no investment. Games are supposed to make you feel some kind of way. Media in general is. That's the point. Nowhere did I say 'go play something else'. I said 'let people who want to play hard play hard and enjoy it'. That solves the problem; play how you want and let people enjoy the game their way. It makes the topic under discussion totally moot when you just let people play without getting insulted.
The best solution of course is to make a casual mode, but BHVR has made it clear they will never do that.
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The game is FUN (despite too simple in concept) but UNFAIR (the power of 4 vs the power of 1, perks, add-ons, etc). There's too much that can make matches UNFAIR. The Matchmaking suffers because of everything around it. You can't blame Matchmaking for facing 4 solos or a SWF where they all have Meta Perks, Matchmaking can't account for what people bring and use so Matchmaking itself isn't the issue and even MMR can't help this.
Ranked and Casual would help if it had defined rules, you'd keep Casual as we currently have it and you'd have Ranked with Set Rules, no stacking of perks for example, no OP add-ons like Tombstone Myers, etc. Rules that within a Competitive Setting make for a Fair match. All of this would force a HUGE and NECESSARY (even without playlist split) BALANCE UPDATE. They could keep the current existing 20 Ranks, they can keep Rank Reset except everyone goes back to rank 20 to reshuffle everything instead of high ranks always being high ranks. And to give people an incentive besides the Competitiveness and to encourage as manny people as possible to play Ranked Mode they could integrate the Archive System to it so it isn't playing the game in sweat matches, it's playing the game in the most Balanced environment possible and giving Progression. Casual Mode would have everything like perk and add-ons unlocked so people can play whatever whenever they want. Wanna do a quick match? Go Casual. Wanna try new killer ? Go Casual. This way everyone gets free practice or quick play options without any pressure where doing good or bad doesn't matter but everyone can learn and get better so that they eventually play Ranked. Ranked doesn't have to be sweaty, ranking up doesn't have to be a must but something you choose to do but should you chose so then there's a environment that is ready for it.
Speaking of creating that Balanced environment it would be extremely hard with just Perk Balancing and add-on balancing. My belief is that the Maps need to be properply Reworked and not just face lifts, coats of paint don't do anything. For example Breakable Walls, they aren't there to help get rid of infinite loops, Breakable Walls themselves are infinite loops in some cases wich killers are forced to break wich results in losing the first chase there and that's just wrong no player should lose anything because the game is terribly designed, the Map Design needs to be properly adressed and not covered by dumb mechanics like Breakable walls. Killers need a better POV and FOV, the taller killers feel exactly the same as all the normal human size killer, Myers's POV and FOV shouldn't be the same as Ghostface's or Plague's and Legions's, to me that makes no sense, i get they need to be consistant but make it consistant with the character's Build, taller Characters = taller POV and higher FOV. I get why they want a lower FOV for Killers but for gameplay purposes it's just not good to have a lower FOV.
Another issues is the Pipin System and the Emblems and how each role fills those requisits. I Like the Pipin System, i think it is good and fair but the Emblem System is a complete joke. Get rid of the Emblems, make each action worth more points and make it count directly towards Pipin so that you require less of the same action to have a chance at progressing your Rank. Needing X amount of this for Y Emblem then needing Z amount of this for W Emblem then the same for 2 more emblems is just too much to do. The game being around who can pressure Generators better isn't good for the game. Killer's can't pressure 4 people at once thus he can't be punished so harshly for losing Gens, gens isn't the killer objective, Hooking is the killer objective, chases is where Survivor meets Killer, the game needs to push this aspect more, promote more interactivity between both roles. One of the best way's to promote this interactivity is to make Gens less important and to do that they can introduce parts needed to repair the Gens instead of just holding M1, this makes for a better early game for all killers, especially Set Up Killers, since Survivors will need to search the map for the parts they need, meaning there's more potential for chases to happen, there's more map to play in and there's less emphasis on kill rushing and on camping or tunneling wich makes for a less sweaty game.
I think most everyone would agree that DbD needs a change to it's core not only to solve it's problems but to be something more than just new content every 3 months. The main problem is whoever is in charge of putting DbD together thinks the game is just fine as it is on a conceptual level and the fact that DbD is self published means there's no accountability to be had, wich is nice when there's a genuine desire to make things well but DbD's track record with quality isn't good but there's no accountability so the quality can't be higher. There have been so manny games that have done things better than DbD but don't stand a chance against DbD's licensing power, where else would you play Myers, Demogorgon, Steve, Nancy, Ghostface, etc.
And here's something else, DbD isn't a cheap game, the base game is 20 bucks but there's only 5 killers and survivor and most of the perks, especially on Killer side SUCK BALLS, there isn't a single gen regression perk, there's only Thanatophobia but it requires to injure people and keep them injured, wich means you'll need Sloppy Butcher, wich then you can compliment with A Nurses Calling and your final perk is whatever else there is: Enduring, NOED, Tinkerer, Whispers. Huntress's, Wraith's and Trapper's Teachable Perks suck balls, out of those 9 perks only Brutal Strength is useful. Oh but there's Shrine, yeah and each perk there is 2k shards, you'll need to play alot frequently to get 1 perk every week and then there's still chances that the Perks in the Shrine are some of the 15 you already have. Everything else you have to buy and then GRIND... DbD isn't cheap and then there's always the Rift pass and the cosmetic shop wich make alot of money for BHVR so there's no reason for DbD to be so low quality sometimes...Take that money and hire some competent people.
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Just throwing something out there about my original point of
"how to make objectives matter less so people can do other activities that are more fun and relaxing"(i.e. chases, helping teammates, etc)----------------
What if
instead of 5x generators to start the end collapse,We had a 30 minute timer until the end collapse started. Then each generator completed removed 25% of the current timer.
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A rundown of a fast game might look like this:
30 min start, 2 minutes elapse then two generators are completed back-to-back:
The timer is now 28:00 * 0.75 * 0.75 = ~15:45 minutes left.
then another 2 minutes elapse, and 2 more generators are completed back-to-back:
The timer is now 13:45 * 0.75 * 0.75 = ~7:45 minutes left.
finally, one more minute elapses, and 1 more generator is completed:
6:45 * 0.75 = 5:00 minutes left
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So what I described in the example was an extremely nasty 5 minute "generator rush". But using a reduced percentage of the current timer system, that "generator rush" is actually a more normal 10 minute game. If you want the game to go even faster, survivors need to do a 6th or 7th generator, but the benefits of that might be slim at only 5 minutes remaining. What you will see if you plug these numbers in for various scenarios is that games are more equalized to last between 15 to 10 minutes assuming 5 gens done.
On the flip side there are possibilities if less than 5 generators are completed. Lets say that we have 4 gens done as described above, but 2 survivors left. Typically this would be a loss for both survivors against an S-tier killer, but surviving for ~8 minutes left in the game isn't an impossible task, just an uphill one. A team might fail, but so long as they did some gens, there is still hope for those that are left.
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Some of the numbers might need slight adjustment, but under this system generators would still matter but not be so rigid leading to the frustration I described in the OP.
Maybe throw in an anti-tunneling incentive where each unique survivor hooked pauses the hidden timer briefly if all others are alive?
Thoughts?
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Talking about the first part of that post:
A certain degree of randomness and a small amount of unfairness provides a bit of variation in the gameplay experience. But rather than splitting off into ranked/casual with strict rules, I think a big culprit to address instead that ruins people's fun is that good addons/offerings/team perk setups are currently a blind wager.
For example, if survivors are running 4x purple hook offerings and they're all running breakdown, you don't know about it beforehand until its too late and you're in the game. There is no chance to react per say other than to take a beating for a good 5-15 minutes or not being able to do much. Likewise, if you've ever been playing solo survivor and run into a rusty-shackles 3-gen hag, there isn't much you can do without certain perks/items.
If there was some way of getting a partial hint that you're facing a lot of stacked perks or high quality addons/offerings, the other side might be able to back their wager with their own high end stuff. Or if there was same way to swap-out loadouts to a limited extent mid-trial, then we might avoid situations where one side feels helpless. Just a vague notion to think about for avoiding frustrating situations.
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