Camping & Tunneling & Slugging As You Know Them Do Not Exist
Camping:
Ensuring the person on the hook dies. Which is our goal as a Killer. This frequently also draws in OTHER prey who want to save them, thus making our job easier because we don't need to hunt for our food.
Tunneling:
Going after wounded prey. Why would a predator waste more time & energy chasing someone healthy for 70 seconds if they can down a wounded person in 30 seconds?
Slugging:
Leaving a person on the ground to go after someone else. Usually done when it's nearly Hatch time, or if someone is nearby trying to flashlight save, or you know the downed person has DS.
Any other definition, as used by salty Survivor mains, are complete bunk meant to shame Killers into playing sub-optimally so they can win easier.
They also scream it's a problem and demand the Devs put in 'fixes' and 'punishments' for a problem that boils down to 'The enemy team killed me and I should I always win, remove their ability to kill me.'
But here's the thing; the opposing team does not get to decide how you play. So camp and tunnel and slug to your hearts content. And be happy knowing that at least 50% of the people you do it too are probably screaming about how 'unfair' and 'unfun' it was that you beat them.
And because they're playing a legitimate tactic; they won't improve, and they will lose to these things again. 😁
Comments
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Camping, tunneling, and slugging are allowed, so why not use it?
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Gen rushing is also a legitimate tactic, as is bodyblocking and flashlight clicking.
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Weren't you the one who wanted gen tapping nerfed and ruin to be basekit?
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My suggestions are there because I, and many other Killers, are aware that we camp to slow down gen speeds.
Again; the facts are there: ONE Survivor doing ONE GEN AT A TIME, with NO HELP, and NO ITEMS, can clear all 5 in 6.66 minutes.
ONE Killer hooking every Survivor ONCE, and chasing them for the average of 1 minute, needs 12 minutes to kill everyone.
We need TWICE the time to do our objective. So suggesting slowdowns makes sense. I never said my ideas were perfect, but trying to call me out because you disagree did not really work.
Since, you know, I've been on record saying gen rushing is fine; it's Survivors doing their objective. It's just that times, when there's THAT large a gap, needs looking at.
But you do you.
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Gen tapping is kind of dumb; you probably should have to sit on a gen for 2-3 seconds to stop a regression. Hard to argue against that if you just think about it practically.
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Yes they are.
If one Survivor can tick off the Killer and make him waste time chasing them instead; they did a good job.
Hell, I'd say there should be a BP score for making a Killer switch targets after a pallet drop or flashlight click.
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It is if you get the Killers attention and make him throw the game in order to catch you.
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I mean, if you can't see the difference between being racist or homophobic and (possibly) BM'ing someone in game, idk what to tell you.
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Using slurs and insults is different from teabagging and flashlight clicking, dude.
I am a Killer main, and if someone teabags, I know they're trying to make me chase them.
And as the predator, I know to never chase prey that's ready for me. I pick the time & place, not them.
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It is often argued that these tactics are no fun. But the killer is not the entertainer of the survivor. The devs are responsible for the fun. If someone wants to play efficiently (as survivors do) why punish this way of playing? There is nothing toxic about it, otherwise it would be banned. Neither a tactic, a character, an item or a perk is toxic. Toxic is when you are insulted in the endchat because you used Noed.
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He is also the one now in another place complaining about as he calls it, "Toxic Slugging" and a way to fix it. His response is to give unbreakable pretty much to everyone instead of just not getting slugged. If your entire team gets slugged you did something horribly wrong and deserve it.
Here is the link to his how to fix Toxic Slugging even though above he says to slug and camp and tunnel away because it is a tactic. Overall I am learning he is just someone that wants the game to work to his advantage and does not like when things don't go his way. He says to slug but then gets slugged and now says no slugging and better fix it!
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/246605/a-fix-for-toxic-slugging#latest
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Camping only works vs solos and very altruistic swf so if you wanna take an easy game and make it easier then absolutely go for it :/
The fact you call survivors prey, killers predator, and anyone who disagrees with you a salty survivor main tells me exactly what I need to know about you already though, mostly that arguing this is a hopeless case.
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These killers as predators also want to appease the entity. How does one appease the entity? By hooking survivors.
How does one piss the entity off? Slugging too much and camping
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Wow, so children like you attack people based on their posts.
While I accept that slugging, camping, and tunneling are part of the game, I can also accept that there is such a thing as toxic slugging. IE: Slugging the whole team and leaving them to bleed out to ruin their fun.
I mean, heaven forbid I be intelligent enough to differentiate between a valid tactic and a toxic attempt to ruin people's fun. But I guess being an adult is strange to someone who digs through a person's forum posts to find reasons to dismiss or insult them.
ANd yes, because gen speeds are too fast. I can take Survivors 6.66 minutes or less to do all 5 gens, and the Killer needs 12 minutes if he is expected to 12 hook people.
Killers would camp less if they had more time to look for Survivors because, as it is now, we feel like we HAVE to remove someone RIGHT NOW to slow down gen times.
I don't get why you and Wyle think having varying opinions is somehow bad? It's called 'critical thinking'.
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If you need 60 second to down a survivor your not playing efficiently. If you need more than 15 second to injure (or down) a survivor, you should change target, apply pressure, and also your statement it's false, for two reason
First, it's unlikely for a survivor to stay on a gen for its entire duration, he will be harassed by a good killer with good perk (you also didn't considered slow down perk into the mix but whatever)
Secondly you didn't consider the travel time, and that can make a huge difference, in some map gens are spread out and you need quite some time to reach one gen as a survivor (not considering the fact that you could find the killer meanwhile)
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i mean i wouldn't say flashlight clicking, onrushing isn't very good cuz how I see it its you just do gens ignoring your teammates, and I didn't know somes killer hated body blocking it was always a static
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Firstly, tunnelling has a very clear and simple definition, it's "getting tunnel vision". That is literally where the term comes from and, like camping, it's mostly the killer being lazy AF and hoping the survivors suck. AKA, preying on solo que for cheap wins.
There's definitely situations where they're the right play, don't get me wrong, but it's not that often. It really isn't. Usually you should be spreading damage and snowballing. And when people complain about "slugging" it's usually complaining about 4-person slugs. It's amazing that in 5 years the only counterplay to that we have without relying directly on teammates is an overpowered perk, an inconsistent perk, and a perk that literally screams "don't slug me".
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First off I didn't say anything I simply asked a question and left it at that with no response, maybe if you used your "critical thinking" you would understand that , Also I've played since release of this game and I'm rank 1 on both sides I never have to camp the hook for my kills ive probably got more hours in the killer side alone than you have in this game I know exactly why gens are busted but both sides have things like that even though they're starting to dwindle away slowly now , slugging is the real tactic to win vs gen rushers if you want the truth, there isn't enough time to get 12 hooks against top notch players so you run high mobility killers and slug instead of coming to the forums trying to pick a fight with someone who wasn't even trying to be argumentive over your opinion that camping and tunneling are good .... Ok bro ... Have fun camping and tunneling in the low ranks and getting gen rushed to oblivion in red ranks because you want to keep noob habits against veterans I really don't care.
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Sure, you did not attack me. You only: Dug through my post history. Linked to another post of mine attempting to call me out like I was being a hypocrite and you were finding a 'got ya' moment. And called it 'Complaining' even though the thread I made was not complaining in the slightest.
But you were not attacking me. Sure.
Also; I clearly know what gen rushing, slugging, and camping are. If you had read that thread of mine you dug up, you would have seen that I said slugging is a tactic, and I was trying an idea that would not limit legit slugging. I've also said, multiple times, that Survivors can do gens, solo, with no items, in 6.66 minutes, and a Killer going for 12 hooks would need 12 minutes.
But, you're here, trying to explain to me that slugging is legit, and Killers don't have enough time to do their goal.
...It's almost like you dug through my post history solely to attack me and did not actually read any further than you had too in order to find dirt on me.
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I find it funny you put "we" in your statement, as if you think you can speak for others players. You sure as hell don't speak for me. Almost all the stuff you mentioned is rarely used and most of the time killers are just lazy and just want a kill because they weren't good enough to pressure the rest of the team.
Although considering your other posts, it seems you just like saying stuff that makes people are, and god know when don't need more of that on this forum.
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I remember the OG ruin/undying there was very little camping/tunneling going on. Killers had good incentive to move away from the hook to chase survivors off of gens. Also i see killers run noed more often now too b/c dull totems are generally ignored. Personally i can't stand a camping/tunneling killer b/c it ruins the game for that survivor. But i do understand why they do.
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Good human being, those concepts do exist and are actually allowed and not punishable, BUT, it's a matter of respect in terms of gaming, you can either play "correctly" caring for other people's experience, or just be a dick about it.
Killers camping, slugging or tunneling are as much of a dick move as survivors clicky clicking, gen rushing or teabagging the killer.
If you need to explain reasons that allow you to be a dick to others in order to "better" achieve your objectives as either killer or survivor (in this post enfatizing killer), you do not need them, be my guest, you can do it regardless of people complaining about this behaviour.
This is a useless post...
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I didn't dig through anything I asked if you were the same guy but it's whatever man camping is a tactic its just not a very good one and gens have always been busted are you just now figuring that out? Any veteran can tell you gen times have always been the problem that's why so many people slug , camping just highlights the gens being a problem and gets you rushed against good survivors don't pretend like it's some solid tactic to win and you "won't have to hunt for your food" that's some of the most noob ######### I've heard on here , next time when you respond and I don't answer just leave it at that and don't tag me repeatedly to continue a conversation that was already over.
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To be fair the gen tapping suggestion is a very valid one.
Gen tapping is pretty annoying and the base regression for killers is far too low as well as borderline useless. It shouldn't be this way. If you are the killer and you find survivors almost done on a generator so you slap one of them, scaring another to run around, and then you kick the gen you will not get much done if anything at all. You waste time by kicking generators but it can easily be undone in less than a second, and it doesn't even regress that much unless it sits there for a minute untouched, which hardly ever happens.
Like I have said, the idea of "kickstarting" a generator should totally go through and would have my full support.
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I've stated numerous times in the past survivors should have to do something before starting gens, gen tapping isn't broken because perks like PGTW exist or thrilling tremors, ruin, corrupt, dragons grip etc. Gen tapping doesn't progress the gen it just stops it from regressing if no ruin is in play , I can agree gens are broken but it's ridiculous to blame gen tapping and want it nerfed before the gen itself isn't that ignoring the elephant in the room?
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I don't completely blame gen tapping as the sole reason for gens "being done too quickly" as many people say. I honestly think gen speeds are fine, it's map design and weak killers that are the problem.
Survivors having to do something before working on generators would really buff the already powerful killers a little too much imo; depending on what it is at least.
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My idea would be thus:
Survivors have to pick up parts nearby. The parts are always around 8-10 meters away (Maybe less; I can't really visualize a meter in game). Basically, there's a slight danger of being seen grabbing parts. But they are always close enough that it's not a mile-long hike.
This also slows down gen speeds; each part added lets the Survivor who added it work on the gen for <x> amount of time (Or until a Great skill check is hit; whichever comes first). Then, they need to go get another part.
If they try to repair without picking up parts; they do so at half speed. This can be useful if a gen is THIS CLOSE to being completed, but a Killer is coming. A risk vs reward thing.
If a Survivor is hit carrying a part, they drop it. If a Survivor tries to run while carrying a part, they drop it.
Dropped parts are claimed by the fog after <x> seconds. Meaning Survivors need to go back to the pile for another.
In this way:
- Gen speeds are adjusted naturally, rather than adding seconds to gen times or slowing down repair speed numbers
- Survivors are doing more than just 'mindlessly holding M1', as I have heard many Survivors describe it.
- Survivors have to move around a bit, which may make them easier to spot at a distance. This makes it more likely Killers will see them instead of stomping around aimlessly. This could help Killers with low map pressure.
I am aware this idea is far from perfect, but I'm trying to make gen repairing more interactive, fix Killers with low map pressure, and adjust gen speeds without just altering some numbers in the code.
(Note: All mentions of '<x>' numbers are because I'm aware that number balancing is hard. This is more a proof of concept than a solid idea, so the numbers can be anything you think is balanced.)
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Throwing an entire game just to chase and kill one survivor is tunneling, not a viable tactic, and only done to be toxic. If you down all 4 survivors and intentionally slug them all to death, the only reason you would do that is to be toxic.
Yes, hard tunneling and unnecessary slugging/camping do exist. If you say that some killers don't do things like that ever, then you're ignorant to the survivor experience.
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Watch almost any youtuber/streamer:
If the Killer downs someone & chases the Meg waiting to flashlight-save 'He's SLUGGING!' pops out. Because Survivors think the Killer has to brainlessly pick up the person he downed, regardless of any other factors.
If the Killer chases the person unhooked because he needs to remove pressure on the gens? Or because that person has a perk the Killer wants remove (Like old OoO) 'He's TUNNELING!'
If the Killer hooks someone and does a lap around the hook to ensure no one is nearby? 'He's CAMPING!'
Those are the definitions many Survivors use, that I claim are BS here in this thread.
And it's content creators doing what I just listed in this post that cause their followers to log into the game & verbally abuse me in end game chat, because their favorite youtuber says it's toxic, so they decide to be toxic back.
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I'm sorry but you're taking this game way too seriously...calling the survivors "prey",
Also, just because camping, slugging, and tunneling are technically "allowed", doesn't make them any less of a major dick move. SOMETIMES I understand camping if it's during the EGC, or if you finally hook that toxic survivor that's been rude to you all game, but most of the time it's plain rude.
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Okay so you're killer version of Sluzzy we get it
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I don't take it seriously, but I find it helps me play better as the Killer.
I am hunting them. That makes them my prey. It makes sense. :P
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that's actually lord tony however he's been seeming more reaosnable.
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by this logic we also shouldn't complain about SWFs, bodyblocking, meta perks, sandbagging, keys, ######### maps, genrushing, or looping.
they're all just aspects of the game and you should've just played better to counter 4 people at once.
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Because you disagree with me, I must be a troll?
Must be nice, just finding reasons to ignore opposing viewpoints.
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Survivor main here!
Everything that can be done in the game is a viable tactic. If it's a game mechanic or a behavior then it's fair game. That being said there is definitely a user-based etiquette which is considered better for the game.
I personally do not like camping/tunneling Killers for the same reason that I do not like moris and keys. Anything that ends the game prematurely cheapens the experience for me (for lack of a better word). I think the majority of people who play Killer probably like the chase as that is the major mechanic behind Killer. Using their unique powers and abilities they hunt down and catch the Survivors - so why end that prematurely? Taking someone from first hook to final hook, or downing them instantly off of hook removes a sizable chunk of gameplay (two whole chases).
I know this is not part of the topic and I'm not trying to derail the conversation, but I'll point out keys so that my view doesn't seem biased. What makes the game fun for me as a Survivor is the mind games with Killer chases and the stealth of trying to not get caught as I complete gens. Something that bypasses the end game entirely feels boring.
This is all my personal opinion, of course, and the Survivors and Killers owe each other nothing but sportsmanship in the end. But I think that the main reason behind a lot of the frustration from both sides is that they want to play the game. Not have someone else strip them of gameplay and opportunity.
Just my two cents. Happy gaming, all. <3
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Not the troll but the person who never played other side Sluzzy never played killer nor did u played survivor... If they did they would know struggles killers go through each day and if u ever played survivor you would know what kind of struggles they go through nor side is victim nor side is underpowered accept that everyone has a chance of winning and in order to that u need to posses skills you two are just jumping at each side throats over nothing I find it ironic that person who complain about gen rush talks about how camping and tunelling is objective well doing gens is also objective I have no further interest in discussion with ppl who can't see what's under their nose good luck with ur games if u wanna camp do so if u wanna tunell do so no need to justify it
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That :p made me like you more but i guess if it helps
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Consistent R1 Solo Survivor & R1 Killer (No mains) with almost 1k hours here. I've played DBD since it released in 2016, taken many year long breaks, and have been playing consistently for the past couple of years solo the entire time. I've seen every common play style on both sides and escaped brown/green rank hell as solo from rank resets after taking breaks several times. I think at the higher ranks of play, the game is fairly evenly balanced. There are so many variables in DBD that can make each match extremely different from each other. Play styles that revolve around one tactic will not consistently work in the long run. A coordinated survivor group (and I've been a part of countless ones as a solo survivor) will always be able to go toe to toe to ANY killer (as long as there's no DCs, early quitters, and not a HUGE serving of bad luck a.k.a a killer gets a super quick first down using something sort of OP like a pinky finger clown...). Here's my two cents:
Dead By Daylight simply does not encourage casual gaming if you're the type to get mad about camping, tunneling, and slugging. Your only hope is to literally get better. Learn WHY these tactics are strong and how to beat them. This is the only way to get better, and when you do, you will learn these tactics are not as ridiculously strong as they seem at the lower levels of play. There is no other way around this. Overly nerfing these tactics will only do harm to the balance of the game, lowering the skill ceiling and removing the game's demand of you to climb the skill ladder.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging all have weaknesses that can be exploited by GOOD survivors if a killer is relying on these tactics alone. A consistently good killer (ruthless/merciless 3-4k per most matches) will most likely NOT incorporate a play style that revolves around these tactics. If you try to do this at higher ranks, you WILL get ran, you WILL get out-genned, and you WILL score a 1k or maybe at best a 2k brutal score. Again, this is if you're against good survivors that know how to counter these tactics, and I'll only devote significant attention to what I think is the strongest.
Face Camping: If a killer literally face camps an early first down, most of the time even 4 high ranked solos will be able to recognize this and just focus on gens using the survivor as a sacrifice. As long as the first hook doesn't early struggle and kill themselves OR DC, the last 3 survivors have a somewhat easy escape if they can lead a chase and let's be honest... most face camping killers are NOT absolute beasts at the chase (otherwise they wouldn't rely on face camping).
Again, so the situation is a killer got an early first down and is face camping to turn it into a 1v3 ASAP. 2 of the survivors NEED to be on gens, and the last can optionally TRY to pull and help determine if the killer is really face camping or proxy camping so hard it's basically face camping. When it becomes obvious the face camper will not stop, such as the hooked survivor reaching stage 2 and killer not budging, the situation should be known and you need to have all 3 survivors on gens. By the time the killer pulls off, you should be at almost only 1 gen left or they'll all be popped. If there's 1 gen and the survivors didn't 3 gen themselves, all it takes is one decent chase and the killer is GG. Killer loses a pip, barely earn BPs, and 3 survivors escape. This entire situation is even EASIER to pull of if it WASN'T an early first down. The same survivor tactics apply only this time you should already have gen(s) completed.
This is THE only "lame" style of camping that is highly effective against inexperienced/lower skilled survivor groups. Without appropriate gen progress, the killer will inevitably turn it into a 1v3, the game gets considerably easier for the killer where it's considerably harder for the survivors, and if they continue to face camp a second survivor to death it's GG for the survivors. This is the face camper's trap. Do not fall for it by trying to save, and letting him get easy hooks + continuing to face camp while gens get done at a crawl. Do not fall for it as the hooked survivor by quitting and screwing your teammates.
Proxy camping: This style of camping is a MUCH more nuanced because there's the possibility of accomplishing a save. It's also still very strong, and when used at the right times, can be a welcome tool for a strong killer in situations where they're already ahead in the match (higher hooks to gen progress ratio) and trying to stay in the lead. With experience, you will pick up the game sense that will give you the right instincts on what to do but due to the high variable nature of DBD I cannot give some blanket statement on how to counter proxy camping.. it just depends on the situation. In the end of the day, gen progress and avoiding getting 3-genned will defeat a killer that is overly committing to proxy camping.
The concepts and tips I've outlined for camping all apply to tunneling and slugging, which are a LOT less egregious IMO than camping. Getting tunneled a lot? You need to work on your chase. If you're just getting saved by teammates in poor situations, sorry but you need to get the hell out of lower ranks then or get good or I guess get carried by a SWF. And slugging? This isn't even a problem. There are perks to counter it, and if you lost to slugging you would have lost otherwise. Not saying slugging isn't strong, but just apply the same anti-camper tactics to a killer camping a slug. It's even easier to deal with because the slugged person isn't getting a hook state but you can keep having gen progress done. This game is ALL hooks vs gens. Getting 4-downed is just a matter of being outplayed or very bad luck.
DBD is not kind to casual or new players. It's sad to say... but I promise if you're masochistic enough to stick through it, unlock all the teachables, have a healthy supply of items on the characters you play, and the ability to utilize some of the many strong perk builds, you'll come to learn it's a pretty damn fun and fair fight at the higher levels. It's just a god awful grind to get there.
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If camping, tunneling, and slugging did not get positive results; Killers would not do it.
Killers are trying to win, too. If a Killer camps & 3 gens pop before anyone comes to rescue the hooked Survivor; that Killer will learn that camping is bad.
Conversely, if a Killer camps & Survivors consistently run to the hook; they will learn that Survivors go for unhooks, even when it's dangerous, and that they can get more hooks this way.
But people asking for 'punishments' are basically saying they want to punish Killers for their own bad plays.
They don't think 'Maybe I should not go to the hook 3 seconds after a teammate is hooked.'
They think 'I went to the hook & the Killer was there. He hooked me for trying to save them. That's unfair! That's toxic!'
Or they think 'I got chased, hit twice, and hooked. It's not fair that the Killer stopped my team from saving me!'
Instead, they should think 'How can I avoid being the first downed?' or 'How can I loop the Killer longer?' But they move right to 'It's not my fault. I don't like this tactic. Change it.'
And it's that 'It's not my fault' mindset that leads Survivors to be toxic to Killers in the chat, because they believe the Killer 'played toxic' and 'deserves it'.
And yes; it goes both ways. There are Killers who think flashlight clicking and twerking are toxic, and act toxic back in the chat.
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This! However, many survivors invite the killer to camp. If I hook a survivor, turn around and not two seconds (exaggerated) he is brought down again, why shouldn't I go there again if I know that two survivors are nearby? I don't like it myself when my devour Hope doesn't get a counter for it. Survivor make the mistake, but the killer is the stupid one who gets the hate comments.
Yesterday I played as a survivor against a bubba and got hooked. Bubba did proxy camping and despite terror radius a Meg took me down immediately, with Bubba of course coming and hitting me again. I can't blame him. If I had been salty, it would have been more at my "rescuer" who couldn't wait to free me instead of checking out the situation first.
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The funny thing is he says he is all for camping and slugging and tunnel yet in another post talks about how to fix Slugging. I just find that funny. It is like saying this water tatste funny and then drink said water and complain about it. He is here saying to play the way you like and to camp and to slug and tunnel but then also on another post complains that people slug? It is just odd and confusing.
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As an adult I find it funny you get to decide what is toxic and what is fun and not fun to others. How do you know that killer slugging an entire team and wathcing them bleed is not laughing themselves until they piss their pants. Also how is tunneling and killing a person or camping them fun for the survivor. You do know getting camped is toxic and not fun so how is as you call it, "toxic Slugging" any better or different?
You in this post tell people to play as they want and suggest to camp and to tunnel which both ruins other peoples fun and is toxic when a survivor is not giving more than in some case 2 minutes in a game. It is toxic to camp a survivor so they die on first hook. You can't suggest to as you say "Play as you want" and then say no wait don't do this because I find it toxic.
I will agree if by some miracle a killer has managed to down an entire team and lets them bleed out that is toxic but there is counters to that. You can run unbreakable or No Mither or maybe just avoid getting slugged and either hide until he hooks someone or try to get someone up. I would also bet whatever amount of money that slugging happens WAAAAAAAY less then getting camped or tunneled and yet you suggest to do more of that and promote toxic behvaior.
I also read how you think slugging does have it's place but NOT when its used to just let people bleed out. Well that is no more or less toxic than everything else you thing is a good and okay way to play and like I keep saying your scenario you are talking about almost never happens if the survivors have at least a hour of playing this game.
I also like to look at other peoples topics to get a feel of the kind of topics they talk about and yours just seemed funny. Its okay to slug and camp and tunnel but then my other post is its not okay to do it when.......If something as you say is a legit tactic and to play however you like screw others then you can't also want to fix the toxic bahvior you are promoting.
It's okay to slug if you know they have DS. How do you know I have DS?
It's okay to slug if it is hatch time or you want to chase someone else. Why not just hook the down person and then go looking? That way you are also not called out for camping and give the other survivors a chance to save the hooked person.
The two post contradict each other. You tell people to PLAY AS THEY WANT and screw others but then complain about toxic behavior and want a way to fix it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/246605/a-fix-for-toxic-slugging#latest
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Let me put it in simple terms, because I'm rather bad at getting my point across. I just don't communicate well, and I overflow with snark when I'm grumpy. Those two things lead to me losing my own point sometimes.
Toxic gameplay is in the intent.
If I slug someone because I know, or think, someone is around to do a flashlight or pallet rescue? Not toxic.
If I slug someone because I want them to be miserable for 4 minutes & I know I could hook them? Toxic.
If I camp someone because I know, or suspect someone is coming to save them, thereby slowing down gen speeds? Not toxic.
If I camp someone because I want to ruin their game (Frequently done with multiple hits or bell ringing or other 'eff you's to make it obvious)? Toxic.
If I tunnel someone because I see a key, or suspect a purple toolbox, or they are just really good at looping & I don't want to waste more time later? Not toxic.
If I tunnel someone because I think it will make them unhappy? Toxic.
You know what these have in common, barring the obvious actions of hitting a hooked Survivor to show I'm being mean? None of them can be proven either way. Even if my INTENT is tactical, the PLAYER might assume I'm being a jerk.
There is no way to know if THIS person camped to gain an edge or THAT person camped to be mean.
But the people around here don't care; they'd rather use a howitzer to swat a fly. If ONE Killer hurts their feelings because they slugged/camped/tunneled; slugging/camping/tunneling has to go. Who cares if Killers use it tactically! Someone got their feelings hurt, or assumed it was toxic, so screw all Killers; remove any ability to do those things!
And what these suggestions don't realize, or don't CARE about, is the tactical half. If removing camping/slugging/tunneling makes it harder for Killers to win; they are fine with that. Because it means they will have it easier as Survivors. And before you say I'm wrong; what about the people asking for Killers to LOSE BP FROM THEIR ACCOUNTS, or give it to the camped Survivor? They are not looking for a way to 'fix' the problem; they are looking for whatever make them feel better than their opponent, or makes them profit.
So they stomp onto the forums, scream about how they feel bad because they got camped (Read: Because they lost), and now want the tactic used to make them lose removed.
First camping/slugging/tunneling gets removed under the guise of 'fun', then Killers adapt & find a new way to secure kills. Suddenly THAT is 'unfun' and 'toxic' the next time someone gets upset they lost.
Why do you think my idea made it clear I know the difference between toxic and tactical slugging? Do you think it was so I could be a raging hypocrite? So people could point at it and go 'Gotchya!'?
It's because, unlike 99% of the suggestions to fix this #########, I know the difference. Every Survivor main that is whining here just wants it removed or 'punished' in such an extreme way that they are either too oblivious to know how damaging their suggestions are, or know full well it would screw Killers in the extreme.
I still remember one poster here, when told his idea was tried and abused, replied with 'Well, it would stop Killers from camping, so it works.' The only result he cared about was Killers being stopped. Actual BALANCE was not even a thought in his (or hers) head. Killers would lose a tactic, Survivors would be stronger for it. Win/win.
So keep pointing to that gods damned thread and trying to hint I'm a hypocrite, because the actual PROOF is right there that I'm not. For every time I point out these god awful suggestions are horrible, my OWN suggestion is right there.
And the bottom line of my posts. The underlying message? Player agency.
You can't take away a Killer's ability to camp without giving them a giant middle finger & forcing losses in matches.
Imagine if the hook teleported away if the Killer was camping for <x> seconds; Survivors would never go for an unhook until the hook teleports. There goes any gen pressure! Survivors can just spread out and wait until it teleports near one of them.
What about the Collapse? If the hook teleported away when the Killer had nothing to do but camp? What's that? It won't teleport in the EGC? Someone will come onto the forums and scream it should because being camped when you're about to escape is 'unfun' and 'toxic'.
What if the Killer slugs someone to stop a hatch escape? Someone wills cream it's 'toxic' and 'unfun' and they 'deserve that hatch'.
What if the Killer tunnels someone who led him on an 80 second chase? Because 2 gens popped & he knows 2 more will pop if they get away after being unhooked? Oh! 'Unfun' and 'toxic!'
Basically; using 'fun' and 'toxic' as a metric for how the other team WINS, then demanding they only win YOUR WAY, when losing is inherently less fun than winning, is incredibly flawed and has a built-in bias.
Because, according to these very forums, a Killer BREATHING at Survivors is sometimes 'toxic' and 'unfun'. If we went by such a flaws metric as 'survivor fun' and 'killer fun':
- No camping
- No slugging
- No tunneling
- No twerking after dropping a pallet
- No flashlight clicking
- No dropping pallets
- No picking 'unfun' Killers
- No picking 'unfun' perks
- No hatch escapes
- No keys
- No moris
- No twerking in the exit gates
What game would we have, at that point? Tickle Me In The Evening?
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