Small game as a counter to NOED isn't exactly healthy
A lot of people have been hailing small game as the counter to NOED. And it's true, it is a decent counter. But is it really the best idea to have one perk in order to deal with the threat of another perk? Wouldn't it be much better if said perk in need of a counter was made so that it wouldn't need a counter, especially when that counter takes the spot of one precious perk slot out of four? Plus, that's not to mention that small game counters most other hexes (leave my goddamn huntress lullaby ALONE you cruel cruel monsters).
Edit: Apparently it's very difficult to comprehend that I'm not saying small game is specific to NOED as a counter. I want you to stop touching huntress' lullaby, but I'm talking about NOED here because that's what small game got hyped up for at the rework. Plus, NOED is automatically more shielded than other hex perks; it's only lit when it's activated, and you better be prepared to do 5 totems instead of 1 if you want to prevent it before hand. Tell that to the poor souls running devour hope.
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NOED isn't even a good perk.
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What you are doing is called "tunnel vision." Since your main concern is NOED, you seem to have forgotten that Small Game also acts as a counter to every other Hex Perk as well. So in short, your premise is false. Small Game isn't a counter to NOED. Small Game is a counter to ALL Hex Totems.
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It is if RNGesus loves you and gives you a good totem spawn.
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It is literally not a good perk. At high level play, the best it will do for you is get you one kill and in order to get that kill you had to play with 3 perks for the entire match.
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Read the rest of the paragraph. I mentioned general hexes.
Plus, what you are doing is called a false dichotomy. It is true that small game is a counter to NOED, because small game is a counter to hexes, and NOED is a hex. It is not one or the other, NOED is a subset of hexes.
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Come visit me in rank 5 and below, it's not fun (it's also how I got to rank 5 but hey).
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No, a false dichotomy is a fallacy that limits options. I did no such thing; in fact, I expanded them. NOED is but one Hex. I saw what you wrote in your first post, but you still put all the emphasis on NOED as if it is somehow more important or worse than the others combined. The Perk: Small Game is a designed to counter Hexes. I pointed out that YOU are the one CHOOSING to put an unnatural weight on NOED, and hence your tunnel vision.
Small Game is for people who want to hunt Hexes in general and do not want to take (or don't have the option) a map into the match. It is no different from bringing in the Perk to sabotage hooks when you don't want to use a toolbox, or Self-Care if you don't want (or have) a med-kit. On and on it goes. There are lots of deadly, effective Hexes, and Small Game's purpose is for hunting ALL of them. It isn't a Perk to counter NOED specifically, and thus the premise of your original post dead in the water.
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Not to mention it's far more effective in a SWF than it ever will be in solos:
-Only one person needs to run the perk to get the full value and you can coordinate builds around this fact, giving you 11 other perks instead of minimum 8
-You know someone is on totems without needing a perk slot on 3 other people to do so.
I still stand by the fact this counter should have been base kit and them not doing so is a slap in the face to every solo survivor who have been complaining for years about the current state of balance- or lack thereof- around solos, killers, and 4man comms swf. That they thought this was an acceptable solo buff, and even said they hoped solos would enjoy it.
Small Game as a perk is not healthy for the game due to it perpetuating the constant power disparity between solos and SWF and yes this is the hill I will die on.
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There are a limited number of places the Totems spawn so just walk to a fewnof them you'll find them without the perk.
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I don't disagree with this at all, i.e. that this Perk acts as a force amplifier for SWF and further increasing the disparity (problem) we have currently. However, I would add the caveat that it isn't the Perk that is unhealthy for the game, but rather the unchecked competitive edge provided by a SWF. Until that disparity is put in check by either unlocking at 5th Perk for Killers whenever they face a 3+ SWF to offset the advantage of the 5th Perk (Comms) and/or increase the objective demands on a SWF, pretty much every single Perk that provides information creates the same imbalance.
And for the record, I'm not saying SWF must go; I'm saying SWF must be addressed by treating them as the SOURCE of the imbalance, and any treatment of the problem has to address THEM. Everything else is a symptom.
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Nah the best counter to NOED is just doing bones.
I play solo and rarely got NOED up att he end even though the killer is running NOED.
You can most of the time easily tell whether a killer is running NOED or not.
They usually only focus on 1 survivor at the time and spending a stupid amount of time to get that survivor down.
When you realise that, just search the spots for totems and you'll be fine.
But yeah i do agree, even though it is a end game perk.
It is a unhealthy perk for the game imo.
It grants you as killer downs or even kills that you don't deserve.
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Small game is how you organize the doing of those bones.
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That limited amount of places is complicated by randomness of spawns, and by the fact that running around to check each single spawn to ensure that a totem spawned and then cleanse that is unnecessarily time consuming. That's mitigated by small game.
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Noed? And here I thought that Small game is counter to all Hex perks. Silly me
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So you think all killer perks should have in built counters for survivors even if they don't take any perks at all.
wow...
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So you want to counter totems but not dedicate a perk slot to them
ive got just the thing
rainbow map or green map with red twine
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You're (somewhat) right (a dichotomy is two options specifically). I miscategorized your quote that "Small Game isn't a counter to NOED. Small Game is a counter to ALL Hex Totems," when I should have said that it was simply wrong. Small game does counter NOED. It doesn't counter NOED specifically, but it does counter NOED. The perception of a came from you assuming that because it counters this, it can't counter that, even though that is a subset of this. NOED is a hex. Small game counters all hexes. NOED is countered by small game. I think what you meant to say is that "Small Game isn't just a counter to NOED. Small game is a counter to ALL Hex Totems," which is pretty different.
We don't take rhetoric or emphasis into conversations of formal (aka pedantic) logic, unless it's about rhetoric. It's simple fact that small game helps you deal with NOED, and I mentioned that all hex perks suffer from small game. Neither of those are untrue. The conversation about which one I'm targeting is irrelevant, and doesn't bring anything new to the table. I'm clearly talking about NOED specifically, and people bringing up small game as a counter to NOED. You don't need a dissertation to see that. Criticism about my complaints being "tunnel vision" don't really address the argument at all. I didn't claim exclusive specificity to NOED, I'm simply talking about NOED in particular. Just because you don't talk about the fact that hydrogen isn't the first element on the period table doesn't make it so that you're claiming it's not.
Saboteur is meddling with a core gameplay mechanic, albeit rarely effective without great coordination. Self-care is a way to heal. These actions, being hooking survivors and injuring survivors, are part of the killer basekit. They are perks weakening the killer basekit. Small game, other than for inner strength, is specifically designed to counter hex perks, and therein lies the issue. It is a perk vs. perk situation, where the threat of a perk necessitates the bringing of counter perk. That's bad game design, since it chips away at perk diversity. Remember when enduring affected DS? It wasn't great, I think we can both agree.
Again, I never claimed specificity to NOED (explicitly or implicitly), and thus the premise of your original comment dead in the water.
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I don't see how dedicating an item to it is any better
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It is. I wish people would leave my huntress lullaby alone. But I'm talking about NOED in particular.
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You don't need Small Game to counter NOED, the same way you don't need it to counter any hex perk. It's a tool that assists in countering NOED. The true counter is cleansing totems (well, totem, singular - the one with NOED), which you can do without any perks. Small Game just helps you find totems if you don't know their spawns.
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I think I'm pretty explicit in never saying that. What I'm saying is that small game as a counter to NOED (and hex perks, because some people are just that obsessed with mutual exclusivity) isn't healthy.
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Running around every single possible totem spawn, especially in solo queue, is already RNGesus faith stat dependent enough already. Small game shaves an incredible amount of time off so that some tryhard sicko can cleanse goddamn blood favor in a minute after starting.
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Yes, that's exactly what I said: Small Game helps, but it's not a requirement. Like how DH isn't a requirement when you're being chased by the killer, but it helps.
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Right, but what I'm saying is that that aid cuts down on the RNG factor of totems, which is their main allure: high risk, high reward. Nobody goes into the game with the knowledge that ruin will stay up the entire game, but small game takes a bazooka to the hopes that it will stay up for a long, long time, and kills a perk slot in the process. All I want is 1 stack of huntress' lullaby before it gets cleansed.
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Unless the killer doesn't have Hex perks. It's a gamble on both sides. The killer's gamble usually pays off, though, because most survivors are loathe to step away from the second chance meta (and always have been).
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Noed stays as a perk that Survivors either "rushing Gen risking Noed, or play safe by pay times doing totems"
If Survivors pay that much time to get rid of all Totems, as I believe, it would take more than 1 Gen time for a whole to remove all totems, which already a win.
For me, Small game is a hard counter to Ruin. I hate Ruin alot.
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Well in that case make pop and ruin base kit because why should a killer need to take perks to lengthen the game and counter gen rushing?
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Discounting travel time, it takes less time to cleanse all totems than it does to repair one generator (70 seconds and 80 seconds, respectively).
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Why should a perk be able to be completely countered without having to sacrifice anything. That's just way too easy and ruins the perk. You're basically saying "Why don't they just make it so that strong perks that have counters no longer need counters because I don't like the idea of having to use a perk slot." That's the whole point of a counter. It's your decision to sacrifice a perk slot in order to give yourself a specific advantage in a certain area. If they just gave you the counter for free, not in the form of a perk, in a way it's basically just giving you free perks. (If the counter happened to be a perk, which small game is.)
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Kinda off topic (and a hot take too) but if someone thinks Small Game is a counter to Noed itself (Doesnt apply to other hex perks) then logically you must find all exhaustion perks fine due to the existence of Huntress Add ons aswell as Mindbreaker and Blood Echo.
In other words, it's not healthy to promote using one perk to counter another perk, because you get stuff like this. It's the same way you shouldnt need to use a perk just to counter a certain killer (which is very rarely used in arguements). Definitely on the controversial side like you Pigmain but to me you're right.
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These are fair points and well supported. I would assert that you choosing to talk about NOED is going to give the impression I took, even if that was not your goal. However, I would have to disagree with you a bit in regards to NOED specifically. The fact that NOED, alone so far among Perks, only activates at the end of the game makes Small Game less effective against it. You must be dedicated to getting ALL of the Totems to kill NOED, and while Small Game is certainly a useful tool for that purpose, it is rarely used for dedicated Totem hunting. A Map is still far superior. I submit that because of the unique nature of NOED, the Perk: Small Game is the least effective against it. Consider:
- Either the Small Game Survivor is dedicated primarily to hunting Totems (rare) or
- That same Survivor must still be alive and well when NOED finally activates and have time to look for it.
Small Game is best for targets (totems) of opportunity, and that is rarely going to be all of them. Maps are the best method for killing NOED aside from SWF who use the 5th Perk (Comms) to coordinate their destruction and count them down. I 100% agree that Small Game should have gotten a Totem counter on it. You will hear no argument against that from me. You will, however, find me somewhat unimpressed by the unhealthy focus placed on NOED. Of all the Insta-Down Perks/Powers it is by far the least dangerous and most easily dealt with. The only reason it holds its place of infamy is because Survivors are entitled and INCORRECTLY feel that since they brought the Generators up they deserve to get out. They somehow feel things ratcheting up n the final minute is horribly unfair. They clearly forget that the Killer has effectively played one Perk down the ENTIRE match for this heightened stress at the end, so it was paid for and dearly so. Moreover, everyone seems to forget that Horror movies are always darkest before the dawn. They always end in a roar not a whimper.
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Totem time is 14? I thought it was 16.
But still, travel + finding totems without Small game increase the time greatly.
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Healing is 16. Pretty sure cleansing is 14. I'll double-check.
Also keep in mind that most totems are close to gens. Furthermore, you're not including travel between gens either.
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The last time I ran small game was when I just started playing the game.
Eventually you learn where all the totem spawns are and you don't need small game anymore.
Even the new totem spawns are easy to remember.
As a long time forever solo, I always find the time to look at all the spawn points.
And if I find 1 I break them, do I see a broken 1 I just remember it.
I always count how many totems are broken down, no matter if it was by my hands or a fellow survivor.
It not that hard to count to 5 (for me at least, but not higher tho 😬), that's why i never understood why people wanted a totem counter so badly.
Cause it's not that hard to do 5 totems imo 🤷♂️
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It is not a counter to Noed. It is just a perk for players who like to search totems.
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50% of people don't bring items anyway and not having 4 perk slots seems to be a sour spot for you, its a win win
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You said it yourself it counter all hex perks, no I'm not wasting a perk slot to counter a specific threat in using a perk slot to counter many possible threats. Just like many other perks that can deal with many situations. Calm spirit would be an example of something unhealthy since other than being the only real counter to doctor ( who tbf is not that strong, just annoying) counters one perk that is meta on Oni and one perk that is meta on huntress. Noed can be countered by many things, but the best counter is memorizing all possible totem spawn ( not easy so big respect to those who can.)
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Cleansing all 5 totems has never been the counter to NOED unless the stars align or you're in a full party. What's better, chancing everyone dying because the gens weren't getting done fast enough, or having 1 person die because the killer can equip a perk and facecamp real good?
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It'll help you coordinate the cleansing of all 5 totems, and to find and facilitate the cleansing of all 5 totems. If it helps you get a few hexes along the way, all the better.
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Again, those spawns are randomized. It's a waste of time to have to check every single individual possible totem spawn to ensure that bones have spawned there, and if they have, to do them. Running around the map, looking in very nook and cranny isn't peak efficiency.
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I don't see why you could discount travel time. It's a part of the process, in addition to actually scouting out where each totem is.
Plus, 70 seconds is still just 10 seconds short of completing a generator. There are a lot of better things you could have done in that time (like a generator, for example).
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I don't quite remember saying that. What I do remember saying is that having it so that one perk can pretty much invalidate another perk on the other side is not a good idea, since it robs you both of a perk slot and chips away at perk diversity.
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Well no, I never said either of them were fine. I think that the exhaustion add-ons should be removed (which they have), and mindbreaker and blood echo are already jokes.
The special thing about hex perks is that they're already based on RNG. You'll have exhaustion perks the entire game, but hex perks can be cleansed and removed. You're supposed to bank on luck, but small game throws RNGesus out of the window and flips you the bird.
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Don't get me wrong here mate, but when you play survivor you have a Shtload of time to do other stuff.
Besides why are survivor ls crying so much to have more stuff to do other than gens, but cleansing 5 totems is to much?
Can you people just make up your minds?
I mean either accept the option to have more to do no matter what it is or just stop crying about having more to do.
Also those "randomized" totems are only a few times they spawn in a different place.
If you still don't know where to look for them than it will never gonna work.
You got your totem counter as you requested even though it was very unnecessary, so either use it or don't.
But complaining about a end game perk where you literally have the entire game for to find it, is just stupid.
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I kinda disagree a little bit about blood echo.
Yes that perk is a joke, but run it on plague and you force the survivors to give them your powers.
Because they want to keep their exhaustion perk active😉
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It's not robbing you. You're getting exactly what you should out of that perk if you run it. Considering that not running that perk would put you at a disadvantage (since you're lacking the counter) I don't know why you consider it as being robbed if you do run the perk when you're getting a clear use out of it. Besides, at the end of the day it's your choice whether to run the perk or not.
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The new totem counter they added to small game is, to my thinking at least, a way to help coordinate the cleansing of all bones without communications. A big grapple survivors had with solo queue is that you don't always know which bones your teammates have done and haven't done, especially when your teammates range from hard carrying you to Dwights superglued to lockers.
I wouldn't call NOED the "most easily dealt with." Unlike devour hope or haunted grounds, which survivors can prevent from procing by just playing really well, NOED will activate when the survivors finish their objectives (not if you finish your objectives), and as long as there's a totem up, does so with stealth. The speed difference with NOED is pretty conspicuous, but the fact that its associated totem in the middle of the game is already pretty stealthy.
I frankly don't care about what survivors think. I frankly don't care about what killers think about survivors. You call them entitled, they call us entitled, I couldn't care less. But what I do care about is having a fun game, because if all the survivors quit then queue times are going to hit the moon. That especially means perks like NOED. NOED gives you an instant exposed on everybody and a considerable amount of speed for literally no work. In fact, if you don't do any work and let the generators get to 5 while sitting on one totem all game, you'll get it to proc. You have literally no agency of your own involved. I get what it's trying to do, being a helper perk to help you secure a few kills on games you didn't do well on, but if you didn't do well, you shouldn't be getting any kills. Perks are meant to augment your skill, but NOED rewards your lack of skill.
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Small game is a hitman for totems. If I'm any smart, the choice that I'll exercise is to no longer run hex perks. That's my point; I don't get why that's so hard to grapple. Having one perk directly counter another whole set of perks on the other side is not a good idea for perk diversity. People will run small game to deal with the threat of hex perks (NOED included), smart people will stop running hex perks because they realize they're going to need devour to last more than a minute.
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Because travel time and searching time are arbitrary and depend on too many variables. That's why I'm stating the bare minimum requirements.
EDIT: In case you didn't notice, I also discounted travel time and search time for the generator.
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