Another ScottJund Spirit Challenge - This time from a much better survivor.
Survivor Perspective:
Continuing from last discussion but with this survivor lasted over double the time on average per chase. This is mostly due to predropping safe pallets and forcing spirit to phase larger distances. Naturally, this takes longer to get the down. Note that when Spirit is in range to do a small phase where the survivor cannot get distance results in a hit almost certainly because Scott is using sounds correctly. This is what I call constant hit pressure. An issue in dbd where the killer can down survivors quickly regardless of survivor skill.
Point is this survivor played exponentially better than the last survivor and produces similar chase times (when in hit pressure - so besides the time wasted with predropping pallets and god setups). Some techniques that prove this:
- Setting up fast vaults by taking the jungle gym wall wide and sprinting at the correct time running perpendicular to the window.
- Very attentive camera control. Kept camera in LOS of spirit at all times that didn't require looking at terrain to take shortest pathing on tiles/loops.
- Sidestepping when LOS has been broken to gain distance.
There's plenty more that made this survivor good but these were examples that the last challenger did not do which is imperative for high elo play.
Thanks to these content creators for uploading these clips. Very good stuff!
Comments
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I don’t mean to live under a rock but can someone please explain what the spirit challenge is?
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There is only 10 pallets on the new maps. Most Spirits (at least I will) break those pallets immediately. Dead Hard was a really good play too. Still not a great counter since you're burning up pallets and no perk Spirit.
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The Spirit challenge is where people go up against Scott's spirit to showcase the spirit counterplay that everyone says exists, because as far as he's concerned, there is none.
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Specifically it's just Scott doing this particular one to my knowledge.
Otz started doing 1v1 challenges and it's gained popularity. Scott did it with players commenting to him that spirit has counterplay in chase. He challenges them to a 1v1. Makes a good video.
Yes I do think if it was a 1v4 his team would of lost after the deadzones created but I suppose from his perspective it's a 1v1 situation and it was only going to up his chase time. He wasn't claiming predropping every pallet to counter spirit, just wanted to do the challenge I'm guessing.
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Ah yes the tried and true spirit counter.
Throw a pallet every 12 seconds so that every pallet is gone in the time it takes your team to finish the first 3 gens. If they even manage it because you sandbagged their generator to throw every pallet near it.
Good chase times yes, but bad in the 4v1. I've seen comp players (talking about tournaments) that 20 seconds is a good chase against spirit as long as you make yourself die as far from the generators being worked as possible.
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That resolution on the second video - how do people play like that?
Not even memeing, I had to hold my forehead because I was getting a sharp pain while watching it.
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Anywho, just have an advantageous start at a God pallet with an infinite window on the other side of the pre-selected map and throw every map resource asap as you run between them to hopefully last a minute on average. If you get stuck at a pallet, just look for slight cues for phasing and make the right guess afterwards.
Got it, I'm on the road to becoming a pro.
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You're 100% right. I tried to include that in the original post. The way I analysed this was to remove any chase time gained predropping pallets comparing to the previous survivor. This survivor had very good micro regardless given it's a spirit 1v1.
Not sure if you mean motion sickness cos of his camera management but understand it's how he takes good pathing while also keeping vision of the killer.
Yeah I kind of wish people were conservative with map resources in a 1v1 because you're right to say 40 seconds in each of his chases were bought regardless of his skill predropping pallets. This post was a reflection that he was lasting the same amount of time as the previous contender even though he is evidently good at survivor which I tried to dot point some techniques he was doing above.
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I like how a better survivor comes out and lasts longer than the first guy, but instead of accepting that spirit isn't some uncounterable behemoth people are just looking for excuses why it doesn't count.
People have already made up their minds and these videos will do nothing to change a person's mind.
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What do you mean? This wasn't showing a better survivor lasting longer. Most of his chase time was bought predropping safe pallets. I was trying to highlight that they last similar times when in actual hit pressure. So spirit getting downs consistently regardless of survivor input. These videos showed this perfectly. He even got a couple guesses correct which extended the chase for 5 seconds until Scott started phasing again.
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And Scott is a good spirit so of course he's still going to down the guy fast in general. People always want to discount the skill of the killer when it comes to spirit. The average spirit player you'll face is going to be worse than Scott.
Spirit isn't uncounterable. There are actions you can do to extend chase as shown. Any killer that commits to a single survivor will eventually get a down. Chase killers like spirit can get the down sooner rather than later.
I'm just tired of people calling everything they don't like in this game "uncounterable" or "requires no skill", because those are just crutches for not trying.
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That is sound reasoning but I'm waiting for people to say, "AY! SEE! Counters!" XD
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And the player is a competitive player who got to choose his perks, the map with a god window, and start at the shack in front of the pallet whilst Scott couldn't use perks and only had yellow addons.
He had literally everything in his favor and used half the resources on the map to last a minute for one chase.
But you're right, the average Spirit player you'll face will be worse than Scott. And that's why people think she has any actual counterplay, because the best and only real counter to Spirit is playing against a bad Spirit.
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I'm not discounting the skill of Scott at all. He's solid. He shouldn't win every game on spirit though. Watch his spirit streams. He goes against countless teams of good survivors that still lose. That's discounting survivor skill isn't it? A good player can have a higher winrate than others but nobody should claim a winrate like Dowsey of 95% on spirit. That isn't PvP.
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Hiron played pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.
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ah you see, backtracking didnt work feint didnt work, what works is run as fast as you can and drop the pallet, sorry but this also works for the other killer, the difference is you may lost the killer while with spirit you only prolong the chase
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This video pretty much puts an end to the debate. There is no counter-play vs. Spirit.
- Tournament players are decimals above even the top 1% of players.
- Scott was put at an artificial disadvantage in almost every conceivable way. These laboratory settings do not occur in the actual game.
- All pallets were dropped as they were approached. This is not specific to Spirit and actually counters your own team, not her.
- Every dropped pallet was a 50/50.
- Scott made several mistakes, artificially extending chases as a result. This is not relevant to whether or not Spirit has counter-play.
- Even with all this, the average chase time was a mere 58 seconds. Some chases were significantly shorter, even with the u realistic concessions Scott made, vs. a player who’s above the top 1%, with laboratory settings in his favour.
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not to said that this will only work for 1st chase after that pallet already dropped, 2nd down would be much faster after there's no pallet which is real situation on real gameplay
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Very good point.
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- I didn't even know he was a tournament player. I just watched the gameplay and said he was good. Thanks for peace of mind
- Yes he was and on purpose to give best case scenario for the survivor.
- I wish he played it like he was saving pallets for the 1v4. Zubat dropped pallets like they were hot against Otz' addonless/powerless trapper. I really want to see good survs be conservative with pallets in these 1v4's but I digress.
- Not every pallet but you can tell he's guessing when he's taking hits after predropping and spirit phases. You watch from his perspective and there are no queues visual or audio for what he's doing. He might be imagining what Scott is going to do and act as if he's playing the spirit but that's still a guess.
- I know but Hiron's movement was so much better than his last challenger. I'm sure he was caught by surprise and the clips do show the visual/audio cues he missed in his blunders. He even made a pallet kick error.
- Yeah these times were inflated from predropping valuable pallets.That's why I said if you subtract the time bought with predropping he didn't last any longer than the inexperienced survivor Scott challenged before.
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i mean, a majority of the Spirit counterplay relies on the fact that the Survivor runs Iron Will and the Spirit doesnt run Stridor.
that there is no counterplay any time one of those two requirements isnt met is pretty common knowledge, so him proving that there is no counterplay when the Survivor isnt allowed to run Iron Will basically just shows something everyone (at least a vast majority of people) already agreed uppon.
thats why my change for Spirit would be to deafen her for grunts of pain and instead replace them with normal breathing, aswell as immediately cutting the chase music once she starts to phase.
that way we get rid of the annoying perk reliance, Stridor wouldnt be OP on her (while also not being useless) and the stand still "mindgame" is much harder to do.
do that and fix footstep sounds for both sides and i think she could be a really fun Killer to go up against.
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That is a good way to put it. It's not PVP in this game due to how unbalanced the game is in favor of killer. It's more like "pick killer and always win". Scott is a killer main and thinks Spirit is overpowered which says a lot. It still doesn't stop with Spirit, most killers are overpowered because survivors are simply weak as hell. If you ever watch Scott or any of the other killer main stream, they literally never lose and that doesn't look good for DBD.
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Those moment of pre-drop pallets and vault back is just similar to you staying at a pallet and both side get 50/50 guess.
He drop pallet on right side, then fast vault to left side and Spirit came on the right. He could've done the opposite and Spirit might also came on the left and the result is the same.
Its all about lucky at 50/50. Lucky 50? You're able to reach to the next pallet and predrop it for another 50/50 game. Unlucky 50? Hooked.
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Half of your statement was right.
Sluzzy is making progress
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If you don't pre-drop the pallet against Spirit, then Spirit stands at the pallet with her husk and deadzones you completely with her phase. That is the correct play. 59 seconds+hook time is 2 or 3 gens if people are actually working on them. Don't discount the chase times. Yes, he burned through resources. But people wanted to know how to play againsr a good Spirit and this is literally how you do it.
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Yeah it took a competitive player with full perks vs a yellow addon, perkless spirit to showcase some 'counter play'. Which was absolutely unreliable given the differences in performance between rounds. This is a competitive player that has mastered going against Spirits and Nurses with a gargantuan amount of hours to boot. And he still died in very short chases at times, and his longest ones involved human error from Scott or having very good pallets to pre-drop in a row. Props to Hiron, he did so some good plays, but it never felt consistent.
Dropping every pallet on the map vs Spirit in 99% of the games, ending with 9 of them fried in the first minute and a half of the game, will spell the end for the team. Because almost never are your teammates as efficient as competitive squads, nor will they necessarily stay on gens when you pass by them during looping (because then any decent spirit can get an easy grab).
There is no counter play to a spirit in any REGULAR match. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect the average DBD player to adapt to such a monstrosity as competitive player like Hiron would (and even then comes out iffy). I'm convinced those that still defend her either are perpetually in low ranks or are downright lying for whatever reason.
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Exactly what I have been arguing here for a while now.
The players, the setup and the map made for a real interesting video. Really enjoyed it.
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Hey now this can be used to show the frustrations of versing spirit.
If both sides didn't make the odd 1 or 2 mistakes (such as the double vault and the bad phase) and it was down to raw guesses the chase time would be around the same time. However I assume we aren't gonna get a perfect survivor and scott playing perfectly against them any time soon.
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The dropped pallets were much more than a 50/50, probably more favoured to scott especially if he had duration add ons or better add ons in general.
Also, do you know how much 58 seconds is for a killer whos primary power is chase ability?
You cannot say "a mere 58 seconds" when games end in 5 minutes. 58 seconds is a LONG time in DBD.
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If this was a 1v4 naturally the chases to follow will not be 58 seconds. Unfortunately lots of people focused on the predropped pallets and not the pertinent problem which is take away the pallets, inexperienced survivor and tournament level survivor lasted similar times.
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I’m talking about the video. The dropped pallets in the video were a 50/50 at best. Scott didn’t have better add ons. Why are you talking about hypotheticals? Which leads to my second point:
58 seconds average chase for a strong chasing killer vs a survivor who’s above the top 1% of all players, whilst having several unrealistic artificial advantages in his favour including map selection, limited ad on usage and no perks for the killer, starting at the strongest possible position on the pre-selected map, is not very long at all. And that’s just the average.
Even with these incredibly unrealistic concessions vs. such a high calibre player, several chases were significantly shorter, in fact just as short as they’d be vs. a bad survivor.
Not to mention the fact that dropping so many pallets to extend one chase to a mere 58 seconds is actually countering your own team and losing the game outright, and therefore doesn’t counter Spirit in the slightest of ways, which is what the entire debate is about, not chase time.
How many gems typically get done by the 58 second mark in your games, and do you honestly think you’re going to win from that point with no pallets left?
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The hypotheticals were referring to normal matches, where a spirit who wants to win is not going to run yellows, but instead she'll run green or even purple. With added duration it leaves the spirit with more time to get the survivor in chase and leaves survivors with an even less predictable guess. Hence making much less of a 50/50 and more of a 70/30.
58 seconds average with the 2nd strongest killer in the game against a comp survivor on a good killer map starting with a god pallet and lots of pallets predropped. Perks on killer don't matter because what spirit runs chase perks.
Honestly I don't see how that is short especially if we start to factor in comp teammates etc. More importantly it's good to understand that chase time does not equal how much counterplay a killer has.
And yes, there also were LONGER chases than the average due to how averages work.
Also, I don't think she has valid counters either, but you cannot say that 58 seconds is short and use that time to show how she doesn't have counters..
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Killers need to land hits in intervals of 30 seconds to be strong in the first place. A lot of the reason why the game balance breaks for killer at top-level is that most killers are not landing 30 second interval chases because of a lot imbalance loops(like god pallets, safe loops etc.). To put it bluntly, your skill as killer matters very little when your playing weaker killers like legion, clown, trickster(?) etc. you simply don't get the opportunity to mindgame the survivor because the loop has little to no mindgame when survivors plays safe loops perfectly. Its why changes like Billy and Freddy are very much in the wrong direction for when they're doing changes that remove skill-expression from those killers. Killers should strive to be closer to around spirit-level in power. Between the finding survivors, chasing the survivor for 58 seconds and hooking them, its easily around 80 seconds to complete 3 gens. Those pallets are there to get used. The biggest wasted pallet is the pallet that doesn't get used when you walk outside of an exit gate. There is enough pallets on the vast majority of maps that you will never really run out if you use them intelligently.
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Same as people were missing about 4min chase in Otz's vid telling all Gen would be done by then.
People needs to understand those moment of starting a match, checking for Ruin, just about to run & find Ruin with Small game. Then a survivor already gets injured.
Now look back to the vid. 58sec chase with 3 pallets drop, and runner lead the Killer to your Gen, force you to leave. While Ruin is on.
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I'd be flaming the hell out of the person that has predropped every good pallet in the map.
The fact a pallet is up makes a killer play a tile differently. It's a swing of pressure when the pallet is down.
I can agree with you that Billy didn't need a nerf (he is still just as powerful just has no instasaw and power management) but I'm sorry it takes zero micromanagement to play Freddy and place traps without any movement penalty. His nerf was coming.
You realise if every killer was spirit level of power. Nobody would play right? Like survivors don't queue up and say to themselves I want to verse Spirit.
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if this is what you mean by counterplay then this actually same with other killer the difference is you already escaped the chase or take more than 1 minutes with that spam pallet.
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Who are the 2 people in the video?
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Yeah, it'd almost be like how Killer queues are right now.
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Yes cause immediately throwing every pallet will work so well in normal games.
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you'd be surprised how many people think spirit has counter play not tied to IW purely because they play against bad spirits, most of the time.
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I think you're still missing the point. 58 seconds is not a short chase at all, but everyone is outlining WHY his chase was so long and why it isn't feasible for it to be considered actual counterplay against a good Spirit- nobody cares if you have even a 75 second chase against a Spirit if you're only lasting that long BECAUSE you are using all the good resources to the point that nobody else will have anything for their chase. The game isn't won for the survivors until they're at the exit gate and more than just the first chase matters for survival. Even once the last gen is completed, survivors still need resources and a Spirit WILL be steamrolling you in a chase after your first teammate predropped every single good pallet on the map.
Also, this was done in a laboratory setting and there is no way Hiron would be able to chase like that without running the Spirit past any of his teammates on gens. No smart or good Spirit would tunnel a chase so hard that they wouldn't break off to smack up someone else who was more poorly positioned (especially after the first chased survivor used a technique similar to Hiron, as far as it goes with pre dropping. Why not break off to chase the guy who is now forced to work on a gen in a deadzone?).
And again, Hiron is a competitive player. Your average - above average players will not be able to successfully employ this tactic against a good Spirit without throwing the game for the rest of the teammates. Even if Scott is an incredibly good killer player and the average Spirit main won't be able to end chases as quickly as he can, it really doesn't take much to get to a good enough level with Spirit to be nearly as effective at ending chases (in comparison to someone like Nurse or Blight- you have to learn their powers well to be oppressively godlike). Personally? I LOVE going against average level/slightly above average to good level Spirits. If you don't have Stridor/don't know how to buy great headphones and turn your volume up high enough that you constantly know where I am without any counterplay from my side, it feels fair. I can make plays with unusual pathing/confusing scratch marks whenever I get a lucky guess on whether you are actually phasing or not, all without having to make the game a hold W/predrop pallet simulator. It's fun, it's satisfying to come out on top of a mind game, and it doesn't reduce you to boring, mindless chases that are completely focused on just lasting as long as possible, even if it means literally holding in a straight line past pre dropped pallets.
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Preserving and greeding pallets is something you do against WEAK killers because you can push an advantage against them. Stronger killers force you to use pallets as resource to survive in a chase. They're usually able to hit survivors even when a pallet is down. I disagree that predropping pallets can hurt you. You can test it on maps like "The game" vs like a legion or any M1 killer. I assure you, that the Legion player will never end up breaking every single pallet on the map. Even on lesser dense pallet maps, Its very unlikely to occur unless your team is notoriously slow at doing generators.
As for killers, I used to face freddy everyday or every second day when playing survivor, now I rarely see him. Its same with Billy. Used to face him every 2nd-3rd day, now I rarely see Billy.
I could play devil advocate and say same regards to killer, Killers wouldn't want to play matches knowing they instant lose whenever they face a remotely decent survivor team and yet that is the case for every killer below A-tier. I liked facing old billy, pre-nerf freddy, spirit etc. because those killers punish you for making bad reads/bad plays where as other killers either punish you very slow or cannot punish you because too many of the loops are too safe for you to make any mistakes. It makes the game more interesting. It makes you feel like you earned the escape more.
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There is no real counter play. If you are full SWF sweat squad, dropping every pallet for a one minute chase might pay off but, more likely, you just killed everyone. But hey, it's Spirit so, they were all going to die anyway.
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"I used yellow add-ons and no perks."
Yeah, this happens all the time in Solo que...
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I think they meant stretched resolution and filters.
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So the counter is to hump safe windows and drop pallets with no mercy. Would probably work on maps like Cowshed, Haddonfield and The Game but you’re screwed if you load into something like Shelter Woods I guess.
Fun videos to watch if nothing else, it’s always interesting to watch good players.
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they're predropping every pallet, know what kind of add ons the killer is running, the killer has no perks, the killer doesnt know their perks, and they still didn't last that long. the stretched res is just the cherry on top.
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Besides all that the interaction between Scott and Hiron was next to nothing. Most of it was correct reads and some guesses by Scott and some correct guesses by Hiron.
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Again I’m talking about the actual video, not hypotheticals. In the video there were no counters displayed and that’s with everything artificially skewed in the survivor’s favour. In the actual game, even a survivor of such calibre won’t last near as long.
58 seconds in the context of the video is not very long at all for reasons I’ve already described. The fact that some chases lasted just as long as they would vs. a low skilled survivor merely fortifies the argument of Spirit having no counter-play.
We are not talking about a 58 second chase vs Spirit. We are talking about a 58 second chase that starts on a map of the survivor’s choice, at the location of the survivor’s choosing, using essentially every resource on the map, vs. a Spirit with suboptimal add-ons and no perks. In this context, the actual context of the actual video that I’m talking about, 58 seconds is not very long. Is it a longer average chase than that of the average survivor? Obviously. Does it prove that Spirit has counter-play? Absolutely not. It proves the exact opposite.
Again, dropping every pallet doesn’t counter Spirit, it counters your own team, who are totally screwed. Artificially extending chases to a mere 58 seconds by using every resource on the map argues in favour of Spirit having no counter-play, not against it.
Not really sure what point you’re trying to make here.
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Not sure why people keep taking my words out of context. I’m talking about the video. Scott’s challenge. Not a real match.
In a real match you’re not lasting 58 seconds vs. a good Spirit, even if you’re above the top 1% of players, unless you get lucky enough to have your ideal map with every resource available, and just so happen to start at the ideal position in the ideal scenario, and even then your team is screwed regardless.
Pallets are there to be used, but you’re not supposed to just use them all as you approach them. Doing so will artificially extend a chase like in the video, but the end result is a loss unless you’re in a comp team, but we’re not talking about comp.
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Exactly m8. All the video shows is that even in unrealistic, laboratory settings vs. an extremely high calibre survivor, Spirit has no counter-play, and in an actual game of dbd under normal conditions with a team of varying skill levels, the issue is simply exacerbated.
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