[Reddit] After what you said in your last devstream, I think I do not think you....
have any idea how your game is played or how to balance it.
Devs, we know that not every killer is going to be viable at rank 1, but just because it's probably going to be the case doesn't mean it should be something you're aiming for.
"If you want to play at rank 1, just play Nurse or Hillbilly" is quite possibly the most infuriating thing I've heard from a game developer since Diablo Immortal. I also remember when MCote said ... "if you get frustrated as killer plays something else" ... I do not understand these developer terms.
Creating fun powers is all well and good, but if they're unusable at high ranks then they mean absolutely nothing to me or to most of the community.
I gravitate towards rank 1 whenever I put any time into killer, and there just are not any good options for me. More viable options? Yes, Billy, Nurse, Huntress and ... Spirit, but I would like to play a trapper, Freddy, Pig, I want variety not the same always.
Play the top tier killers (Not fun: I hate playing those killers).
Play the killers with powers I find fun (Not fun: Those killers are easily bullied at high ranks).
Derank to a level where low tier killers can still win (Not fun: killing bad survivors is just way too easy).
If you release a weak killer, no matter how "fun" their design is, playing them is going to be absolutely miserable if that just means you get your ass bullied every time you run up against good survivors.
Let me say this once: Legion is a fun, interesting killer design, but that means jack ######### if you're going to leave them in the gutter like FREDDDYYYY KRUEEGER...
Comments
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Only fun matters. Fun of survivors.
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Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.
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Agree. I was also shocked but not really surprised when I heard the devs say that.
In my opinion every killer should be on the same level in terms of killing and winning potential. That‘s called balance. It‘s just boring to see the same killers at rank 1. The devs should at least try to make every killer equally good and bring them to Huntress\Spirit\Billy level (not Nurse because she‘s OP still).
The devs clearly don‘t know how to play the game properly (they showed us how badly most of them play last dev stream) so they think DbD is just a fun little game to play with friends now and then. But that‘s not the case for most people playing DbD. Players want to fight equally good players and win. But as the devs said if you want to have a chance against coordinated survivors only the best killers will be able to so that frequently.
I also think the devs might be afraid to make killers good because they would get review bombed on steam again like what happened when Freddy was released.
I wish Pig, Leatherface, Freddy, Doctor, etc were viable against good survivors but only killers that can down survivors fast and counter loops (Billy, Nurse, Spirit and Huntress depending on the map) can really put out enough pressure to kill and win against swf or good survivors.
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@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
and about "if u frustrated plays something else by Mcote" It was a long time ago that he had to ask for forgiveness.3 -
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
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I'm actually surprised that him saying that if you want to play at rank 1 you should play billy or nurse didn't start a shitstorm.
He seem to not get that people have been playing them for 2 year and that even survivor that play at high rank are getting bored of facing the same two killer over and over and over...8 -
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=554 -
"dOn'T yOu GuYs LiKe FuN?"
Not if it only applies to one side, devs... seriously... HOW are you this naive?6 -
And he was so damn right. If someone gets that frustrated over a video game then it's better to go play or do something else.Th3Nightmare said:@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
and about "if u frustrated plays something else by Mcote" It was a long time ago that he had to ask for forgiveness.
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The problem is Legion won't be fun.
Is it fun using Legion to vault pallets then slash multiple survivors? Yes.
However how much fun do you think the person will be having when they try to down that survivor and they're basically a huntress without hatchets? Ever tried using huntress without hatchets on the most painful loops of the game? Its not very fun at all.
You can't pretend everything will be ok at low rank either due to 1) SWF groups always bring a high rank or two with them. These people will loop the killer endlessly and 2) Due to rank reset and veterans of the game not playing as often you can still get highly skilled players at rank 15.
We've all been there starting out. Looped all game by someone with 2000+ hours on the game when we're only just starting out. It's incredibly frustrating and it almost made me quit the game.
You can lose and have fun because you enjoyed the game. Going against a good team and 2 hooking everyone probably won't net you a 4k but everyone had fun.
However to have fun you have to feel like you're in with a chance. Feeling like you can never catch survviors because your killer isn't viable or feeling like you're overpowered gets rid of the fun for killer players.
Not every killer has to be Nurse or Billy tier. In fact I think those two killers feel cheap. A high tier killer though? Thats not too much to ask for. Just make it so that the person feels he had a fair chance at winning.
I do think they prioritize fun too much sometimes. I.e. Decisive strike. Would be it be fun and cool as a survivor if you could strike a killer and escale them? Yes. However well done you've now just unbalanced the game and ruined the fun for killers.
Look at other videogames out there. Take Starcraft as an example - its been played for decades now. The balance is what makes it fun. It didn't need Decisive Strike or NOED or Moris or skeleton keys to make it fun. It didn't need any crazy stuff. The balance is what kept people coming back to it. The same could be said for a number of other competitive multiplayer games out there.
I think they want DBD to be that crazy game where anything can happen. Something they said in the last dev stream kinda confirmed this. I have to admit it is appealing in a way. We all have a crazy story about when things looked like they were hopeless snd then someone pulls out a key and all survivors escape, or someone activates Haunted Grounds then the entire team goes down. I get that and it is funny but sometimes I feel it goed a bit too far.7 -
So every killer should have a super hard learning curve like the nurse is what you're all asking for then? Look at most of the games out there with lots of different characters.
Take Battlefront different difficulties of characters and weapons and loadouts with the easier ones being easier to play of course but less damage etc.
Warframe same thing.
Overwatch
Battelborn
League Of Legends
I could keep going on but you get the point, there's different skill level characters with the easier ones not being great at high rank competitive play.
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Never everything will be balanced in any game. (there would have to be 1 killer so yeah >.>)
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@powerbats said:
So every killer should have a super hard learning curve like the nurse is what you're all asking for then? Look at most of the games out there with lots of different characters.Take Battlefront different difficulties of characters and weapons and loadouts with the easier ones being easier to play of course but less damage etc.
Warframe same thing.
Overwatch
Battelborn
League Of Legends
I could keep going on but you get the point, there's different skill level characters with the easier ones not being great at high rank competitive play.
I am informed about League of Legends since I have been playing it for more than 7 years. Riot Games is trying all its champions that are more than 140 champions that are "competitive" through Reworks and buffs. Each patch is a world, the champions can change a lot and now with the 2019 pre-season some champions go up as they were hardly played, and that should be done by the developers of Dead byh Daylight, rework all the killers that are below the stronger: Nurse, billy, huntress etc ... Because I would like to play the trapper, pig, freddy but it is impossible because they are below the best. In the LOL it happens the same, the best champions are played, the others are not played .. why? Because it is not in the same measure as the strongest. But Riot, he worries and tries to balance them. Sry for my bad english.
on the other hand the DBD developers tell us to play with the best, that is a lack of respect ... I want to play with others, I do not want to desrank to face bad players and destroy them because that is not fun.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
I am informed about League of Legends since I have been playing it for more than 7 years. Riot Games is trying all its champions that are more than 140 champions that are "competitive" through Reworks and buffs. Each patch is a world, the champions can change a lot and now with the 2019 pre-season some champions go up as they were hardly played, and that should be done by the developers of Dead byh Daylight, rework all the killers that are below the stronger: Nurse, billy, huntress etc ... Because I would like to play the trapper, pig, freddy but it is impossible because they are below the best. In the LOL it happens the same, the best champions are played, the others are not played .. why? Because it is not in the same measure as the strongest. But Riot, he worries and tries to balance them. Sry for my bad english.
on the other hand the DBD developers tell us to play with the best, that is a lack of respect ... I want to play with others, I do not want to desrank to face bad players and destroy them because that is not fun.
So how many of those 140 champions are actually viable at high rank competitive play? There's a hard pool of may'be 40-60 max champions give or take for all roles. So for someone that knows League you obviously missed that part.
OW the same thing, there's a reason why certain champs are always picked.
Any pvp game it's the same rule of thumb there's a certain group that gets picked everything else gets left in the dust.
While Riot tries to balance the game and every champion the simple truth is certain champs are just plain better.
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I don't think those two are the only viable killers at rank 1 anyway.
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I find it a little comical that they dictate "fun" by their own interpretation. A lot of "fun" for me and it seems many others is winning, as I enjoy the competitiveness of games. "Fun" for me isn't a carebear experience where everyone wins. Clearly this doesn't apply to everyone and that's the whole point. "Fun" is different for everyone so their base design philosophy is bad since they even said themselves that "strong" isn't included in their "fun" definition and that's what is scaring us all, as well as in itself explains a lot of bad design decisions they have made thus far. I also hate when they over exaggerate things, saying we want a strong killer does not mean we want a killer stronger than nurse/billy, it just means we want a viable rank 1 killer which is not unreasonable.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=55What the #########? What is this guy even thinking? Does he know how to develop a game?
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@powerbats said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
I am informed about League of Legends since I have been playing it for more than 7 years. Riot Games is trying all its champions that are more than 140 champions that are "competitive" through Reworks and buffs. Each patch is a world, the champions can change a lot and now with the 2019 pre-season some champions go up as they were hardly played, and that should be done by the developers of Dead byh Daylight, rework all the killers that are below the stronger: Nurse, billy, huntress etc ... Because I would like to play the trapper, pig, freddy but it is impossible because they are below the best. In the LOL it happens the same, the best champions are played, the others are not played .. why? Because it is not in the same measure as the strongest. But Riot, he worries and tries to balance them. Sry for my bad english.
on the other hand the DBD developers tell us to play with the best, that is a lack of respect ... I want to play with others, I do not want to desrank to face bad players and destroy them because that is not fun.
So how many of those 140 champions are actually viable at high rank competitive play? There's a hard pool of may'be 40-60 max champions give or take for all roles. So for someone that knows League you obviously missed that part.
OW the same thing, there's a reason why certain champs are always picked.
Any pvp game it's the same rule of thumb there's a certain group that gets picked everything else gets left in the dust.
While Riot tries to balance the game and every champion the simple truth is certain champs are just plain better.
The part you are missing is that LoL is a very very complicated game. You can't even compare the 2 with each other.
Hundreds of champions with hundreds of items. Each champ has a passive ability, 4 unique skills etc. etc.
DBD has 13 killers with 1 power. There are more than 50 perks but most of them are irrelevant. Having viable 50-60 different champs is quite a success for a game like LoL. DbD can't do the same thing with 13 killers that have 1 ability. Creating a killer takes 3 months, so they have enough time I believe.Another problem is that 1 or 2 easy killers are more than enough for the low ranks. Leatherface, wraith, pig are already easy to use and don't require much skill from you. I don't understand adding another killer to the game that is for beginners. None of the games you mentioned try to create heroes or champs for the beginners or low ranks. Take LoL as an example, none of their new heroes is point and click like old ryze. They are reworking the old champs as well, making them more complicated like Urgot.
Whether you guys accept it or not, DbD devs have a problem with saying 'we are messed up, we know that and we are trying to fix this'. Even the most positive DbD streamers think that the new killer is ass. I just don't see any point to defend what they said
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After read this topic i start think devs try fix his own game with dlc not paths.1
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I make it by pretty well at red ranks with The Pig, Huntress, Michael, etc (Trapper has some difficulty)1
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@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=55I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.3 -
@RSB said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=55I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.I'm done, I'm not going to support this company anymore.
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@Crow said:
@RSB said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=55I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.I'm done, I'm not going to support this company anymore.
Same here. I have all of the DLCs, but the next one will be the first I won't buy.
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I think the only devs that actually play the game are Giddawid and not_queen, two of our community managers. The other devs either don't play the game at all, only play it a little bit, or they play it a lot and just haven't made it public.
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@RSB said:
@Crow said:
@RSB said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
https://youtu.be/3XeACeKejcA?t=55I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.I'm done, I'm not going to support this company anymore.
Same here. I have all of the DLCs, but the next one will be the first I won't buy.
I have 3 DLCs, but from now on I'm going to get everything with shards.
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I bought the Clown with shards, now I am going to buy the Legion with them. I am not supporting this "only-fun-but-for-survivors" mindset.Crow said:@RSB said:
@Crow said:
@RSB said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.I'm done, I'm not going to support this company anymore.
Same here. I have all of the DLCs, but the next one will be the first I won't buy.
I have 3 DLCs, but from now on I'm going to get everything with shards.
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@popoles said:
Crow said:@RSB said:
@Crow said:
@RSB said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
@Th3Nightmare said:
@Crow said:
Where I can see those lines? Because I can't believe that the devs themselves said that.
The last devstream
I was talking about time stamps or clips you know...
(Play Nurse or Billy) --> https://www.twitch.tv/deadbydaylight/clip/EnchantingWimpyPelicanBrainSlug?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
(Play survivor or something else min 0:55..) -->
I would like to add a new, famous, quote from the recent stream - "(...) Legion has trouble finishing the business (downing the survivor) and that's fine!' - so basically they know they (Legion) are weak and "it is fine".
"We should play Billy/Nurse". They just release trash content, know it, but still want money for it. Hilarious.
I'm done, I'm not going to support this company anymore.
Same here. I have all of the DLCs, but the next one will be the first I won't buy.
I have 3 DLCs, but from now on I'm going to get everything with shards.
I bought the Clown with shards, now I am going to buy the Legion with them. I am not supporting this "only-fun-but-for-survivors" mindset.
I'll also only be using shards until I see some meaningful changes.
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Have to have a chance to have fun? Nah I can actually enjoy the characters and game regardless of 0/4k. It's a game. Have fun or why play?The_Crusader said:The problem is Legion won't be fun.
Is it fun using Legion to vault pallets then slash multiple survivors? Yes.
However how much fun do you think the person will be having when they try to down that survivor and they're basically a huntress without hatchets? Ever tried using huntress without hatchets on the most painful loops of the game? Its not very fun at all.
You can't pretend everything will be ok at low rank either due to 1) SWF groups always bring a high rank or two with them. These people will loop the killer endlessly and 2) Due to rank reset and veterans of the game not playing as often you can still get highly skilled players at rank 15.
We've all been there starting out. Looped all game by someone with 2000+ hours on the game when we're only just starting out. It's incredibly frustrating and it almost made me quit the game.
You can lose and have fun because you enjoyed the game. Going against a good team and 2 hooking everyone probably won't net you a 4k but everyone had fun.
However to have fun you have to feel like you're in with a chance. Feeling like you can never catch survviors because your killer isn't viable or feeling like you're overpowered gets rid of the fun for killer players.
Not every killer has to be Nurse or Billy tier. In fact I think those two killers feel cheap. A high tier killer though? Thats not too much to ask for. Just make it so that the person feels he had a fair chance at winning.
I do think they prioritize fun too much sometimes. I.e. Decisive strike. Would be it be fun and cool as a survivor if you could strike a killer and escale them? Yes. However well done you've now just unbalanced the game and ruined the fun for killers.
Look at other videogames out there. Take Starcraft as an example - its been played for decades now. The balance is what makes it fun. It didn't need Decisive Strike or NOED or Moris or skeleton keys to make it fun. It didn't need any crazy stuff. The balance is what kept people coming back to it. The same could be said for a number of other competitive multiplayer games out there.
I think they want DBD to be that crazy game where anything can happen. Something they said in the last dev stream kinda confirmed this. I have to admit it is appealing in a way. We all have a crazy story about when things looked like they were hopeless snd then someone pulls out a key and all survivors escape, or someone activates Haunted Grounds then the entire team goes down. I get that and it is funny but sometimes I feel it goed a bit too far.
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Also, to all these "this games trash not gonna spend money until they change" sounds pretty entitled to me. It's a game ffs not Congress. Theyve put out great content, and on one little TEST the community acts like they're completely incompetent #########.
Like, it's a ptb, and the feedback has already been terrible. So why assume they're not gonna make changes? And if they dont, how about just idk, skip this killer everyone thinks is trash, and continue to play the game without berating the developers?4 -
@Carpemortum
But of course this game is meant to be fun. The problem is that fun is a subjective term.
I, for example, consider fun as getting at least 2k per match.
But developers are trying to push through their definition of fun and don't care about the more competitive players. (Like the "play hillbilly or nurse")0 -
I am sorry, but I really feel entitled to my money.Carpemortum said:Also, to all these "this games trash not gonna spend money until they change" sounds pretty entitled to me. It's a game ffs not Congress. Theyve put out great content, and on one little TEST the community acts like they're completely incompetent #########.
Like, it's a ptb, and the feedback has already been terrible. So why assume they're not gonna make changes? And if they dont, how about just idk, skip this killer everyone thinks is trash, and continue to play the game without berating the developers?1 -
@Carpemortum said:
Also, to all these "this games trash not gonna spend money until they change" sounds pretty entitled to me. It's a game ffs not Congress. Theyve put out great content, and on one little TEST the community acts like they're completely incompetent #########.Like, it's a ptb, and the feedback has already been terrible. So why assume they're not gonna make changes? And if they dont, how about just idk, skip this killer everyone thinks is trash, and continue to play the game without berating the developers?
This was the exact same stuff that was said about the spirit and before that the Clown and before that etc etc etc.
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I'm probably not the best to comment on this but I'd like to be more involved in the community discussions.
While I agree that it is terribly inconsiderate what they said, especially since your fans are what keep it alive, but maybe it's not entirely on the devs. Yes in higher ranks I see all of about 3-4 different killers (Nurse, Billy, Myers, Spirit *less so* and maybe a Hag)
But that being said, why bother getting to those high ranks? Yes if you have fun killing or surviving and happen into those ranks, you're amazing and deserve the respect (even though you probably won't receive it) but honestly, I don't see the appeal in winning or escaping or murdering everyone. I just think that it's not important. Once you're up that high you're kind of railroaded into things, but thatst something you did. Maybe don't immediately steam roll your way into rank 1, take some time in between your sheer brutality on either side and maybe play someone with less capability or just someone you enjoy. I know that I might get hate for this but still.
When I play Killer, I don't really care much for "winning". Then again it's the same when I play survivor. I don't mind dying or getting zero kills, I enjoy the chase and the thrill of that. So personally, Legion is exactly what I'm looking for, they're fast, do some spooky stuff that is eerily similar to what a survivour who has just been there too long would do.
That all being said, yes what the devs said was incredibly shocking and off-putting but, in a way, it has some truth. You know what you're doing. You're the one making that decision.0
