Why Counterforce will be Bad for the Game!
A sequel to my rather infamous post regarding Counterforce, I should at least state why it will be bad for the game and give very valid arguments that will let you see the problem with it in full.
The Perk has no Counterplay And Still Rewards the User
Now I'll hear every single one of you say, "But it does have counterplay, just don't run Hex Perks!", but therein lies the problem. That's not an actual fix to the issue that this has. Even if you do not run Hex Perks, there still runs the problem of the Survivor cleansing the totems as a distraction. And if you do not run Hex Perks, that accomplishes nothing; instead, Counterforce has accomplished its task of countering the Killer in full by getting rid of their ability to use Hex Perks altogether.
Not only that, but cleansing a totem still rewards either 1000 or 1500 Bloodpoints per cleansed totem, meaning that you are still rewarded for using this perk, regardless. Even without running a Hex Perk, this perk still has an upside to it that can allow it to be used in the average match.
Hex Perks will Die Significantly Faster
Say that you do want to run your Hex Perks, your Ruins, your Devour Hopes, your (for some reason) Thrills of the Hunt. That's good and all, but expect these perks to just flat out go away within the first minute or so of the match just because of how Counterforce works, especially in tandem with the Map and Detective's Hunch.
And reminder, you gain a 20% base increase in cleansing speed for the first Totem, then a stackable 20% per Totem cleansed, meaning that all of those perks are going to die pretty fast. Unless you're a high-mobility Killer, you are more than likely not going to get them once they get your Totems.
Oh, and it doesn't help that the Perk allows you to see the furthest Totem for a few seconds, which you know, kind of speeds up the process even more.
And if you think Thrill of the Hunt will save you, it won't.
This Perk is Competitively Unbalanced
Now, Nurse and Spirit aside (because I know people will mention them), think about how this will affect the game competitively. Many competitive Killers run Ruin + Undying for a reason, and that's to ensure that they get the most value out of their totems before they are inevitably destroyed or they can win.
Well, guess what? Goodbye Ruin + Undying for them because those Totems will die pretty fast to a potential "Cleansing Squad" or a solo "Cleaner", as I'll dub them, who'll go across the maps to scrub off all the Totems before you even get the chance to use your Hex Perks. And hey, it'll be 20% faster so that you get to hear that sweet, sweet boom of your Perks collapsing before your very eyes.
The Perks hit Worst by This Are...
- No One Escapes Death; this is self-explanatory, since it won't see the light of day at all even in casual matches.
- Huntress Lullaby; again, something that's going to die pretty fast as soon as people figure out that it's active.
- Thrill of the Hunt; so remember when I said it won't save you? Well, for each totem remaining in the Trial grounds, you gain a stackable 6% reduction in Survivor cleansing speed. But for each totem cleansed, you lose 6% of that stack, meaning it's now down to 24%, then 18%, 12%, 6%.
- Then you take into equation Counterforce's ability to gain a stackable 20% cleansing speed on totems, plus another 20% per totem cleansed. So now the real difference is:
- 5 Totems (Counterforce vs Thrill): -10%
- 4 Totems: +16%
- 3 Totems: +42%
- 2 Totems: +68%
- 1 Totem: +94%
- Undying; this is what the perk was probably intended to counter.
- Ruin; same with this one.
The Third Seal, Crowd Control and Blood Favor aren't as affected by it because let's be honest, they're the worse Hex Perks to run.
The Hex Perks that will Benefit from this Are...
- Haunted Ground; this one has the only ability to just cause the Exposed status effect on Survivors when they cleanse a totem, meaning that if you're at least a higher mobility Killer or are on top of a Survivor or two right afterwards, you'll be able to actually get value against Counterforce.
- A powerful combination you could possibly run is to just have Haunted Ground + Undying, but a counter to that is to simply cleanse all of the Dull Totems first, then strike at the lit totems, if you can.
- Retribution; this one will benefit from just general Survivor usage against Totems; suffering the Oblivious status effect means that you'll be able to sneak up on them within due time and take them out. It's also a benefit if they aren't running aura-counter perks so that you can see when they cleanse a Hex Totem, which will allow you to possibly intercept them on their merry way to counter your totems.
- A very powerful combination could be utilizing this in tandem with Haunted Ground simply because you get valuable information, plus the ability to sneak up and one-hit the Survivor that used this perk (or just cleansed it in general). 10 seconds of knowing where they're going will be most beneficial.
- This...could just be countered by two people running Counterforce.
At the End of the Day...
Counterforce is going to be a Perk that will shake up the metagame, sure, but it will do so for all the wrong reasons. What was once the potential to have a Hex Perk last either 15 seconds up to perhaps the entire match, is now a guaranteed loss of that Hex Perk long before the match is even over, and in fact, the loss of all totems before the match is over.
There's no real counterplay to this, there's no penalties for running this, and you are still rewarded for cleansing totems regardless.
Hex Totems will inevitably all die out once this perk becomes commonplace, and it's not like this Perk will be unusable once it's done its job, since you still get points for cleansing the totems.
I only see the death of Hex Totems once this perk releases Tuesday along with the Resident Evil chapter. Hex Totems were never a problem, in all honesty.
But now one Perk will always be a problem because of the threat it will always pose.
If you run Hex Perks, it will do its job. If you don't run Hex Perks, it's done its job and can do more.
Comments
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I’d love to see killers adapt to this by running retribution and haunted ground together. It’s a dirty combo.
I know I’ll be doing the same running distortion against lethal pursuer
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As you said, there are various totem defence perks that can help with counterforce. It’ll be more equal between totem defence and attacking. Also, people hardly ever use new perks, so it won’t be in every game or anything like that.
Hex perks shouldn’t be an auto win, the killer shouldn’t be able to just stick Ruin or Devour on and forget about it. Also, a survivor will be wasting their time cleansing every totem in most games.
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Most likely the DEV are gearing up to increase the number of really nasty Hex Perks and is getting the counter Perk out there for you to learn beforehand, so you can't say you weren't prepared. :)
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Yeah even though small game and Detective’s hunch are both great nobody runs them the same will probably apply here
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Wait there's a totem there?? It's so well hidden I can't see it
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Did OP not stop, at any point during that entire essay, to realise that both Small Game and Detective's Hunch are in the game already? Counterforce isn't even the best option for anti-totem.
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If only shows you the furthest totem, so it doesn't mean automatically gone. You have to find the first totem and then travel to the furthest area to find the second. If you keep going across the map back and forth, you are wasting time not doing gens. Imagine you wasted 3 minutes searching for 2 totems only to activate HG/Retribution.
Most of the time when I play if there's no obvious hex like Ruin or Lullaby most people don't bother cleansing as it isn't affecting gameplay, only to activate NOED at the end.
I like cleansing totems, but personally I enjoy Small Game. Its consistent to find totems and has the counter to see what team is doing. I don't think counterforce will be meta shaking, it'll just be another totem option not unlike Detectives Hunch (especially with a map) or Small Game.
Now I think Blast Mine will be more meta shaking tbh. I think Ruin + Surge will increase as PGTW will get hit hard by it as its an auto blind when you kick.
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I prefer small game and DH over counterforce.
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I think counterforce should be buffed so it is a random totem and not the one farthest away. This is like an advantage for the killer because you waste time going across the entire map to maybe not even find the totem.
Again Killer perks are so easy for killers to get huge benefit from such as Ruin, NOED, Infectious Freight. Look at Corrupt Intervention: stalls the game at the beginning for doing nothing. Survivor perks require a lot of effort and it might not work.
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It's gonna be as META as Power Struggle lol
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I started to play a little over than a month before The Twins release. I remember coming on the forums for the first time and reading people saying Power Struggle was OP.
I so rarely see it in game that sometimes I even forget it exists.
It'll be the same here I think.
This. ^
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This. Those are better perks that only handful run already. Even a map is better and doesn't take up a perk slot. Only people that will run Counterforce are those that already run totem perk and for some reason prefer it over the other 2 totem perks or someone going for Adept. This overreaction to Counterforce is hilarious.
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Small game is better and no one runs it, so I highly doubt it'll be a problem
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I saw it being used in youtube videos, back before I played, then once I saw its description in-game and understood what it meant, I assumed it had been nerfed.
It hadn't. It's always been -that bad-.
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I'm hoping Counterforce will end up being a For The People/Soul Guard situation where initially it seems like a really scary perk but then it actually comes out and you barely see anyone running it
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How dare a perk reward the user and have no penalty! What, are perks supposed to help the survivor that uses them now? How ludicrous.
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... it's an info perk, they aren't supposed to have counterplay because they give you no value if you put in no effort, and both Detective's Hunch and Small Game have existed for years and both do the same job just as effectively.
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As hardcore Small game user, Counter force is below Small game.
With Small game, I can surf around a map once and cleanse them all.
Counter force, you have to find the first totem to get the info of the next one. Then you go to another side of the map to cleanse the 2nd once, then you to to another side of the map to cleanse the 3rd one. With all that time, you aleady waste 2 Gen time. Its a win for you.
Beside, in open maps, you can track far totems easier. In maps like Lery & roundabout main buildings like Asylum, you would lost your way to the totem, cause it useless.
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All this time spent on this Post over a Perk which will most likely not even be used that much...
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There always is that one survivor perk in a new chapter that’s said to be OP and breaking the game…
i wonder how out of all the 6 coming it’s a perk that just lets you find totems, pretty inconveniently at that as well…
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Good grief. This is madness.
Firstly, killers are not meant to expect Hexes to last long periods of match time. Killers need to grow up and accept the high risk that is meant to be associated with them. Sometimes they’ll be cleansed within seconds into the match. It’s SUPPOSED to be this way. Build your load out accordingly to still COPE once a hex is gone. Even if it’s at the beginning of the match.
Secondly, there’s already been a range of totem detection abilities in the game for a ridiculously long period of time. A Rainbow Map with range add ons will always trump Small Game, Detectives Hunch, and Counterforce.
Thirdly, the whole point of Hexes is help the killer buy more time. In the case of Counterforce the survivor needs to find their first totem before they can get ANY use out of it. The perk will then continue to send the survivor the absolute longest distance possible to the next available totem. And THEN the survivor needs to try and remember the approximate location of the revealed totem. If Counterforce gets 1 survivor wasting monumental amounts of time to clear away all 5 available totems, including any Hexes that were being ran, what does it matter?! You have still been granted the time (delay) in the match you were SEEKING from the Hexes in the first place.
Chill out.
If you put way to much investment into a hex, and get upset when they’re cleansed, then don’t run Hexes. Run perks survivors CAN’T remove from your build.
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My friend, You gotta relax, The devs are watching the numbers and we will see how the perks are performing in some time.
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I think you overestimate how often people break totems because as someone that has been running Small Game since the counter was added, it's pretty uncommon that people bother with them. Unless they happen to come across a Hex of course. Counterforce is going to have you travelling across the map as it reveals the one at the longest distance. That extra travel time is very significant, enough that if you're following the aura that cleansing speed boost isn't going to mean much at all.
I predict that quite a few people will run this for a little bit, as it seems like an interesting perk but it won't be long before people stop. I find it to be pretty rare for people to be running totem hunting perks.
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Where could they go with Hexes though? I wonder what ideas are left to explore.
I wonder if we’ll ever see an all hex killer again.
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ruin undying users about to go crazy lol
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Exactly. It works like 1 time out of 10, and you have to use other perks with it to even have a chance to make a use of it.
But people were like: it's gonna kill the game! 🙀
Jill's perk will be used a bit, because we'll all be curious about using them, then we'll all forget they exist. I don't even think I'll use them outside of her Adept.
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I run detectives hunch over small game. It gives me the incentive to do a gen before totems. Yet ot has saved me from devour and noed a few times.
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it is when its cleansing potential gets compounded for each one you finish. You cleanse a totem fast enough already. I run detectives hunch and a map so when a gen is done all the information is saved...You can add a add-on so everyone knows where the totems are.
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Are you a gamer of Detective's Hunch?
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But I think the main point that they are trying to express is that at this point totems aren't a risk. They're deleted. You find one totem and you can just go from one to the next faster and faster. I don't run totems because they are so unpredictable. Now I especially won't.
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This perk will only be useful to counter other perks like Thana or Thrill. Because there are far better perks if your focus is totems alone.
By the time this perk will shine, the match will probably be over with.
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I run Detectives Hunch most of the time and even then Ruin, Devour or Noed still get value in my matches because i can't do 5 totems every match while my teammates are getting chased or they do nothing, and sometimes i don't have time to look at the auras because i'm getting chased by myself. No one will stack totem perks and even 1 is too much for most people. Whenever i play with friends it's usually me who has to bring Detectives or Small Game because the others don't want to sacrifice their precious exhaustion etc. perks.
We had totem-meta for a year now, even after the Undying nerf i see Ruin much more than Pop, and there is still a significant amount of Noed users (especially in purple and green ranks). Devour is not exactly meta but you see it here and there combined with Undying. Ruin can be a very braindead perk if the totem is well hidden, but it's a lottery, that's why i only use it with a backup regression perk.
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I don't think the OP realized.
Counterforce is not a totem hunt perk. It's an anti thrill of the hunt perk, where it can help cleansing hexes before being interrupted.
Other than that, the aura duration and location are a ######### and an egregious noob trap. Big time waster and carries a significant risk of being found by the killer while doing laps of the map.
The only way Counterforce is bad for the game is for the survivors, because there will be one person playing very inefficiently.
All other anti totem options already in the game are superior to CF.
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That what i was saying! 4 seconds is far too low to help you find that far far far far away totem on many maps, especially closed ones. I can instantly lose a totem that was highlighted near me with Detective's hunch, unless the map is open.
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I don't see what the big deal is with this new perk. Why would I cleanse a totem and then run ALL the way across the map just to cleanse another one, that's a lot of time being chewed up when I could be doing gens. I think the cleansing speed boost is nice but it only takes 12 seconds each totem anyway. I'll stick with DH and small game.
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Stop with the "sky is falling" posts. You guys make one for at least one survivor perk every single chapter and every single time you are wrong. Time to learn from the past mistakes and stop over reacting to every single thing.
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Actually, Hex Perks are one of the few areas of "design space" where they have lots of room. Standard Perks are causing them issues in that they are entirely bland and have little to no effect or break the game. Hexes, however, with a built in counter (and more being added) have barely been tapped. They are the game's secondary objective, and nothing prevents them from becoming a third or fourth as well. Consider:
- Right now Hex Totems are lit or not lit.
- Right now Hex Totems are cleansed at a pretty static rate except for Thrill of the Hunt and coming Counterforce.
- A lit Hex Totem is a specific color.
- There is only one Hex Totem that doesn't start lit.
- There is only one way to relight a Hex Totem (Undying).
- Right now Hex Totem placement is entirely randomized and done at map generation.
- Hex Totems, while better than in the past, still have a limited number of spawns.
- Hex Totems can be cleansed in any order whatsoever.
- Hex Totems are currently a Killer affair, although Survivor Totems are being hinted at.
- Hex Totems currently can be protected only by other Hex Totems.
Now all of these things above (and I have more but felt ten was more than enough to demonstrate) can be changed and expanded upon. I'm going to now list the design space they have. These will correspond roughly to things listed above.
- Hex Totems could be changed so some could be lit by Killer actions (Killer version of cleansing) later in the game rather than at the start. This would allow the Killer to choose which dull Totem he/she likes best, making a tactical choice based on the quality of defensive properties how well it is hidden. It prevents the Killer from starting on the wrong side of the map and the Totem being cleansed before it can even function.
- Hex Totems could come in varying strengths and sizes, taking more time (or less) to cleanse. Power of said variable Hexes could likewise be variable opening up huge amounts of design space. Consider Hexes so large an potent that it takes multiple Survivors to cleanse them, i.e. nothing happens unless two work at the same time. *This is just an example of many ways variable Hexes, i.e. time to cleanse them (and how) might work. There might be Hexes that cannot be cleansed without certain items, like say holy water. Nearly any add-on(s) or equipment could be added to eliminate the static nature of Totems and make them more complex.
- Hexes could burn with different color flames which may be indicative potency, type of effect, danger, etc. Again, the purpose of this could be used in many ways both as a help to Survivors or a deterrent to touching them. Hexes could have multiple effects, i.e. one that will be cleansed when it is destroyed and one that will affect the cleanser, i.e. there is a personal price to be paid in taking it out and the color tells the Survivor that. Do you see where I'm going with this? Consider Trapper's Add-on(s) which injure someone disarming a trap. A Totem burning Purple-Green, for example, might do the same.
- Additional Hexes, like NOED, could be created that are lit when certain things take place, i.e. during the EGC or whenever a Survivor is killed. Any number of Triggers could be setup from obscure ones like... the first time a Survivor willingly goes into the basement. My point is that triggered Totems is a whole new avenue of approach and staggers out the lit Totems for cleansing throughout the game.
- As stated before, Undying will protect a Hex Totem right now, but certainly other Perks (or even specific Killer Powers) could cause Totems to ignite on a dull totem somewhere. There is lots of room here for variation.
- What if Totem placement itself doesn't happen at the start for some lit or dull totems? They don't have to appear on the map at all, in the same way the hatch is hidden (off map) until the right time, the same could be true of certain types of Totems. It can't be found or cleansed (dull or lit) if it isn't there yet. This is a huge design space option.
- They have room to create more varied Totem spawns, and in fact, MORE dull Totems than just five.
- Consider also if Totems, as a secondary objective, had to be cleansed in a certain order, i.e. it won't let you cleanse one until the correct one before it is taken out. The puzzle must be solved and perhaps there is a color order, or a number of skulls involved in the little pile, and so on. The puzzle wouldn't be terrible to solve but would mean that just happening on a Totem doesn't mean it is gone.
- And once Survivor Totems exist, there will be Killer actions to cleanse/destroy those.
- What is future Killers (or revamped current ones) had it built into their Power to make it harder to cleanse their Totems. What about Hag, for example, what if the base time to cleanse her Totems started at 30 seconds? This isn't another Totem but rather part of her Power. What if certain Add-On(s) were created (or Gear) which increased the time or protected the Totems?
I really could go on for hours because Hex Totems have the most flexibility left in the game.
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I can think of many perks where you get rewarded for doing nothing:
Mindbreaker
Deerstalker
Spine chill
Solidarity
NOED
Premanition
Pretty much any offering
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To be honest I would love a trap hex totem that when cleansed gives the killer some powerful abilities like increased movement or breaking speeds
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That's another good one. :)
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So OP, how do you feel about counterforce becoming meta and the end of hex perks as we know them a month onwards?
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It takes up an entire perk slot, which is absolutely an appropriate cost for this useful but limited perk.
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