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Scott Jund is "wrong" about spirit counterplay
Now this isnt really about Scott specifically or even that he's wrong about spirit counterplay, I just struggle to find the right words, and he is often at the center of these arguments for one reason or another. This is my video, I would have just made a discussion post about it, which probably would've been a better idea to get my point across, but I really don't want to type that much on a phone.
https://youtu.be/ZY-HZqJONi8
Any one agree or disagree? I'd love to talk more about in a civil manner
Comments
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Maybe give reasons why you are saying this and have a video supporting your arguments.
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So what exactly is a match of yours as Spirit supposed to prove?
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He uses Ruin/Undying/Pop/Corrupt or some variant of the 3 /w BBQ every game, I don't see how his opinion could be valued the slightest. That goes for others that do the same.
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Scott Jund is human, just like everyone else. I'm sure he is wrong about lots of things. People put way to much emphasis on Streamers. He is a guy that plays a lot of Dead by Daylight and has many thousands of hours. At this point there are lots of people that do that. :) Literally, by calling him out on one of his MANY (and I do many) complaints, you are just giving him more of a platform. My suggestion if you have some good advice for going against Spirit, just create a thread about it and leave Scott (and all his ilk) out of it.
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I agree that people put too much emphasis on streamers. However you can't just discount them by saying "they are a streamer" so ignore them. Not saying you said that, but many do.
Streamers play this game literally as a job, they have thousands of hours in the game. I find them more credible at face value than some random forum poster. Just as you would trust a doctor knows what they are talking about when it comes to medical stuff. Generally you put some baseline level of trust in their expertise. Now if they prove otherwise that they aren't good at their job, then that can inform your opinion. But the fact that this is their job, does give them far more credibility at the start.
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The thing is, you need to take what people say with a grain of salt. Sure he has lots of experience but what he says isn't always correct, its just his opinion, which he's allowed to have. As much love as i have for otz and tru3, if they're wrong about something I can disagree despite their experience. The best thing is to not put so much weight on the opinions others have on the game and stop making essentially the same posts about the same topic(OP not you particularly).
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The point you bring up where "all killers have no counter play" is kinda flawed
-Trapper needs to set up at first which can't really be done if some one harasses him and keeps disarming his traps, some one else can also come around and trap buffer to be safe, as for the 1v1 you can physically see him start placing down a trap and you can just run away to another loop and keep in mind that loop is trapped
-Doctor's shock has a limited amount of range and delay where the majority of the time you can either loop around once more because he gets slowed down by his shock or you're able to vault/throw down a pallet before the shock detonates
-Wraith can still be looped, quite easily in fact. His problem against Solo Q's how ever is very similar to Spirit in the regards of he just chews through pallets very easily, since if he commits to you he's gonna constantly be up your ass. But as for you not being able to see him coming because he can use LoS blockers to approach, and possibly body block. The majority of the time if not all the time you don't have 1 single option when caught off guard. So him bodyblocking 1 pallet or 1 window doesn't mean that there are other tools nearby. And in the chase you will see him almost at all times even if he is cloaked
Another point you brought is if you would be able to see her phasing, what would be the difference? She can still hear exactly where you are and moves much faster
The difference would be HUGE. Just look at Spirit when she was first released, she was considered a mid tier killer because she gave TOO much feedback, had the phase sound which was directional and her breathing could still be heard while phasing and was also directional. The problem people have at the moment is the lack of feedback she gives, and the 3 killers you gave as examples all give feedback on what they're doing
-You can see Trapper's traps and him setting traps
-You can hear/see The Doctor charging up his shock
-You can hear/see a Wraith uncloaking
Spirit on the other hand gives absolutely NO feedback on what she's doing at the time, all the survivor see's is her standing still. The odds are HEAVILY stacked against the survivor and that's what makes it so frustrating, your skill as a survivor doesn't really matter its your luck. Even being able to see glimpses of her would be a skill learned by the Spirit by being able to manipulate what the survivor see's, similar to Old Freddy's dream transition, it would also get rid of the "stand still mindgame"
The Spirit using her power in short bursts would be eliminated slightly becuase now the survivor is actually receiving feedback, the reason why it works is because The Spirit has a much better idea where the survivor is than the survivor knows where The Spirit is
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Trust me, you do not want the game built around red rank streamers who play 8 hours a day and never leave their house. It would be the worst gaming experience for regular players wanting to have fun on a Saturday night, which is what games should be.
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You get to a pallet and spirit is there. Even if you KNEW she was phasing, what do you do? Jump over or not? It's a 50/50 because you have no clue what to do. If you're injured you're dead, if you're uninjured then you can get lucky even against a good spirit. It's really dumb.
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Be careful, he and his friends might try to cancel you.
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The match doesn't mean anything, quite frankly I didn't want to record anything, but I wanted some sort of back round footage.
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Like I said, it's not really about him, it's just that he's the one that often stirs up conversation about her and a lot of people agree with him
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I know you are feeling sad because people complaining about your main but Spirit is unhealthy. And she will get nerf. Not today maybe but she will. Even Demo nerfed, Spirit can not hide forever.
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Don't get me wrong, I dont think these killers are good. Like deathslinger is often agreed to not have any counter play in chase but he's not all that great for a number or reasons.
There definitely is "more" you can do against these other killers than spirit, but I don't think it's because she has less counterplay, she's just literally infinitely better than 99% of the other killers.
Now what you say about the killers I mentioned not having counterplay is true, but what I'm saying is that there is nothing you can do if the killer is using there power properly.
Yes it take trapper time to set up, but that has nothing to do with what happens in chase. You either step in a trap that you didn't see in time, or at all, or you change your pathing which results in you getting hit.
Seeing and hearing doctor and wraith doesn't matter because you only see and hear them because they are about to use there power and get a free hit, UNLESS, they {the killer} ######### up
Yeah it's a 50/50, but if you see her that doesn't matter because she has the advantage. She will react to what you do. If she is using her power in short bursts that means there is even less you can do since she'll just use her power again in like 10 seconds
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What?
And for the record I main freddy and oni. And hopefully Nemi once the game is working properly
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"because I like true." that is what they meant to say. its a white knight post and distasteful considering the two of them have already settled this publicly.
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I like both of them...
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For game healthy broken stuffs have to fix. Dead Hard, Spirit are top on list.
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I don't want to watch his videos, but if it has to do with being able to tell when she's phasing (especially when faking) , he's right.
This doesn't kill her for a survivor to know, but it adds options. Soon as you know it becomes a different, less bullcrap and blind mind game.
Fast vault then slow vault?
Slow vault and walk?
Walk away in general?
This is like other killer powers, where you predict what they will do.
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dead hard? what? despite a poorly worded sentence... if your attempt is to say Dead Hard is "OP"... uh what? 90% of survivors cant even use it right and dead hard into the open or a wall. Dead hard is only strong IF you are already strong at looping.
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So, when you are sick and see a doctor, should you immediately doubt what they are saying because they aren't always correct? Generally you have enough faith in them to assume they are doing the right thing. You can ask questions, but ultimately you trust them until they prove otherwise. Why not the same for streamers?
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If 90% of survivors using it wrong, nerfing it will not be problem then.
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No, i definitely want the game balance around high level players like every other major multiplayer game. Would be more fun and fair for both sides.
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You're joking, right?
Saying that killers that run those perks shouldn't have their opinions valued is like saying survivors' opinions shouldn't be valued if they run DS, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, BT, Dead Hard, or Iron Will.
It's the meta. They're run by pretty much everyone and for good reason.
Plus, none of those killer perks you mentioned were broken or toxic in the slightest.
Ruin is some desperately needed slowdown which can and often will be taken out of the game in less than a minute. Undying is just used to reduce the chance of that happening. Pop is often taken as a backup in case that happens, and only as a backup (Ruin makes gens automatically regress, and Pop requires you to kick a gen. You can't kick a gen that's regressing, thus, Pop can't be used while Ruin is up).
Corrupt is slowdown as well, but it only lasts for the first two minutes, and only effects three gens. All it does is guarantee that all the gens aren't done within three minutes.
BBQ is the most non-toxic perk in the entire game. It incentivises leaving the hook by giving the killer some sort of objective to look for (that being a survivor at least 32 meters away), and incentivises it's own use and incentivises not tunneling by giving up to 100% extra BP if you hook every survivor. Plus, it's countered by Sole Survivor, Distortion, and lockers, so it can be avoided if the survivors are clever or prepared.
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You still can do something against those killers if they use their power properly, when 2 players of equal skill get into a chase it really is about who can outplay the other first and thats what makes the chase aspect of the game so much more fun, the survivor gets feedback on what the killer is doing and can attempt to outplay them, with Spirit that just is not the case because you don't truly know what shes up to
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Well with seeing a doctor you should always go to another doctor for what they call a second opinion since what the first doctor says might not be the case. Blind faith is never a good thing to have despite them being a doctor they can be wrong. Streamers can be wrong but since they have a big following people can bandwagon onto what they say and people will think its fact, that's why i also said take things with a grain of salt.
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Do you do that every single time? If you are sick and you go to a doctor and that doctor says "It's just a cold, go get some rest" Do you 100% of the time consult another doctor for a second opnion?
Granted you might do so if that doctor says you have cancer, and are dying, and they need to chop both your legs off or something. But the point is, you have some baseline level of faith you put in them because it is their job. So why not give the streamer the same benefit?
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Just like you dont balance for the top 1% you dont balance because people do not understand how to use it. He is saying it is strong. IF misused, then you wouldnt nerf, because it is not strong. Dont telegraph your hits, remember who has DH, and bait it out. It is a very common place idea.
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There is more you can do because these killers don't have as many options; i.e. they aren't as good as spirit, and yeah there is more that the survivor can do to make the killer mess up, but thats on the killer.
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Am I saying to never listen to a streamer or what they say, no im not. The only thing I'm saying is to not blindly follow what they say just because they do it for a living, that doesn't automatically qualify them to be right. People can have bad takes and make mistakes and that's fine, but people need to come to their own conclusions with the collective info they have.
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Tekken seems to be doing just fine balancing top down. 🤷🏿♀️😈
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Its not only because they aren't as good as Spirit. Its because they give feedback on what they're doing. People get angry at Rusty Shackles Hag when in reality it makes her worst and silent bell Wraith. Why do they get upset? Because those killers lack feedback that they originally gave to the survivors that is now taken away from them, same goes for old Prayer Beads which made people hate Spirit even more.
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The thing is, you're comparing Spirit to Trapper, Wraith, and Doctor, killers that are inferior to her overall. All three of them have counterplay, other than hit & run Wraith which I don't even know where to start on.
Trapper's counterplay during a chase is find out where he places his traps before the chase so that you know his playstyle. Doc's counterplay is to predrop pallets to avoid getting shocked into being unable into drop them.
Being able to see Spirit would allow you to actually perform consistent mindgames because she won't be able to see you while you'll be able to see her, giving her counterplay. Your argument that the no counterplay argument is meaningless doesn't make sense. No counterplay means you can't do anything about it, which is why Spirit is stupidly overpowered. Couple that with mobility and ouch. You either try to mindgame her (in which you don't even know if she has duration/speed add-ons) or your fate is sealed.
Nerfing Spirit (unless it's in a way that gives her counterplay) wouldn't fix her either. She'll still have zero counterplay making it the same as ever when it comes to playing against her.
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They are inferior, but what I'm trying to say is that they aren't worse than her because they have counter play, but because spirit is simply stronger.
Seeing her wouldn't help, it might make it seem less like bs but it's still on the spirit to catch you, your input can only go so far as to make her mess up
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I mean, but you always have a rough idea of what these killers will do in a loop or chase. You can try to play around it, and you may very well play around it effectively.
But with Spirit? That’s not the case. You don’t know what Spirit is doing at all, and before anyone says the head twitch, that’s already been debunked.
Other than the phase sound, there’s really nothing you can do other than guessing a 50/50. That’s why there’s no meaningful counterplay to her because at one point in the chase, you will most likely be forced to guess.
Who is wrong? TrU3Ta1ent. He made a video basically ending the discussion around Spirit with Scott going against a pro player. Not only is that player far better than the average player, he also MADE mistakes that could’ve gotten him killed.
In 2/5 of the chases, Scott won in a deciding way. 1 or two of the chases were extended due to the Spirit’s own f ups, it wasn’t because of the survivor playing better.
There’s no meaningful counterplay to her, you’ll be forced to 50/50 her at one point if she isn’t in fairy tale land. Tru1 kept blabbering on with how great the pro player was doing, when everyone else was watching the pro player get lucky because of the Spirit’s own mistakes., and if you were to watch Scott’s video, the pro player admits it himself (that Spirit doesn’t have a real counter outside of perks).
Currently, Spirits real only counter is herself.
(Both streamers are fairly reasonable personalities with their own respective ups and downs. This wasn’t meant to touch on the drama between the two because they both acted like kids, especially Scott, just the Spirit argument itself).
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No she doesn't have any counter play, but neither does any of the other killers. I'm not trying to say that she does, but rather its the fact that she is just stronger than everyone else for how little it takes to play her. No one complains about nurse because you only go against her every once in a great while, and going against a good one is even rarer. But nurse has 0 meaningful counter play and is infinitely better than spirit
No one complains about, say Myers, who can 99 his t3 then just pop it when he's close. Whats the counter play to that? No one complains about him because he isn't strong.
People complain about spirit because she is strong, and there are more people that are good with her so she's more common
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When I see a trap at a loop I can make the choice to loop there, or go to the next loop, or maybe disarm it if I think i have time for that.
When a trickster chases me I can decide if I run into the open and die, or if I run to a jungle gym and try to use the cover.
When a spirit phases none of my input matters, because I have no information to work with as to where she is or what she is doing. All I can do is guess.
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Except that there are people here who probably have double if not triple the hours Scott does; they just don't stream. Look, Streamers are a valuable resource (well some of them are) and I watched most of them as I was learning. I still watch a small handful because they are entertaining. A few are still teaching me new stuff. However, you have to understand that there are problems with the opinions Streamers give and all has to do with bias, i.e. how their bread is buttered. Consider:
- Streamers are, as you pointed out, doing this game as a job. That means that it is important to them that they look good. The only Streamers that really carry themselves (or did) on Dead by Daylight are the best of the best. That means they aren't (as a rule) really a fan of skill based matchmaking. Fighting other people just as good as them on a regular basis would make getting the content they want harder. In short, their motives are suspect.
- The advice they give is based around the level of play they face and that is NOT what most people play against. Their critiques of the game are based on the problems they have at the higher end of play. The game can't be balanced around the best Players because if so, as another pointed out, you won't get any newer players. Moreover, the advice they give will probably get the average player killed over and over again. They rarely target their advice by level. Some do, but most don't. They are like everyone else, seeing the game only as it applies to them.
- People tend to be blinded by celebrity, even fake celebrity. Remember ANYONE and I do mean anyone can, with 15 minutes of setup, be a Streamer.
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So again, i bring back my point. When you get sick, and visit a doctor, do you question everything they tell you as well and assume they are wrong? Or do you have some baseline level of trust that they know what they are talking about?
Secondly, the game CAN be balanced around high level play, the devs just choose not to which will eventually lead to the downfall of this game, especially if MMR actually gets implemented.
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I trust me. :) I have just as many hours as Jund now.
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Really? You think MMR will be the downfall of the game. Somehow making sure people don't play people too good for them is a bad thing? Odd, that is the same crazy argument some of the Streamers make. Again, they don't like MMR because it might show them as no better than any other person with thousands of hours.
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Yes, i do. Because if high skill survivors only get matched with spirit and nurse every game (which will be a fact) then eventually they will get bored and quit. On the flip side, high level killers will probably get tired of having to sweat every single game, so they might quit.
If one side's top tier players quit, the other side's top tier players have to eventually get matched against someone. And then they will go against people far worse than them, and then those people will get upset and the cycle repeats.
This is, of course, assuming they don't actually balance the game at the top level.
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Or if you don't automatically assume the sky is falling, the DEV will simply work on other Killers to make sure there is more variety at that level. The issue you are highlighting isn't an issue of MMR but rather of Killer parity. Don't mix apples and oranges.
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Nurse and spirit are the only viable killers at the highest level, and survivors want both of them nerfed. What do you think is going to happen? There is a spirit thread here every day, top level streamers keep saying she needs nerfed with the exception of tru3 and look what happened to him for saying that...
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I think the DEV will always continue to move in their slow, glacial way to achieve a rough balance for the MOST Players. Do I think they care about the highest level? No. Their job is to make sure the balance works for the majority of Players. The highest level of play is tainted by SWF, and that is why only certain Killers have a chance. Again, you are mixing apples and oranges. I think that once MMR is in play, they will take new steps to either up more Killers to that level, or slow Survivors down and nerf those Killers.
Dead by Daylight is always going to be a work in progress. It is a chaos engine with so many variables that nothing can be altered without countless other unexpected (and often unwanted) consequences. I think you are just parroting the stuff you saw on a stream, and you need to consider the source. They only care about them. The DEV care about the majority. The highest level is a small minority.
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You can balance the game for both high and low level play.
Tons of games do it. if DotA releases a new character that destroys low level players but is terrible in high level play what do they do? They buff the character, and then change the design of them to make it so they aren't as good in bad player's hands.
What about the flipside, a character who is really bad in the hands of bad players but really good in the hands of good players? You just nerf the character, because it doesn't affect low level players because they can't actually abuse the character that way. Look at this video and how it talks about the base jumper item in TF2
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You watch a lot of videos. :) Have thought about cutting back?
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...not really relevant to the current conversation. How about you watch that small 2 minute section and you will see what i mean.
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I find this more instructive:
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I'm sorry, but I got a minute into that video and the Spirit missed easy hits twice.
I'm not going to say whether you are right or wrong, I'm always desperate for any reasonable Spirit counterplay becuase I love playing Spirit and I want her to be fun to vs, but I don't think substandard gameplay is a good place to look for counterplay. May as just watch myself play at that point, gods know I screw up a lot with her.
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