@The_Crusader said:
only1biggs said:

@The_Crusader said:

I love how everyone who disagrees with the toxic killer clique here gets a "LOL" on all their posts.

Real mature.

Then you get Docwhatshisname using that as if it somehow supports his argument lmao

I have one very special someone here that "LOL's" all my posts no matter what. I hope he's dreamy.

I think the "killer mains" that do it also created a meme that they post sometimes...something along the lines of, "I disagree with a point and so must LOL", complete with an image and everything. It's like they don't know they are describing themselves. Adorable.

And he's LOL'd this one too.

Gotta hand it to him/her, that's dedication. Always so fast too, must have notifications everytime you make a post.

Hey! I thought my comment was at least chuckle worthy

:P

@The_Crusader said:
Seriously.

If the game isn't lagging unbearably then it's just a tunnel fest.

Before you cry "w3lL dun get c@Ught lol" they stil tunnel other survivors to death.

You get penalized if you don't unhook. Plus its not nice to leave someone on the hook. But you have to. Because every killer walks a little bit away from the hook then quickly runs back to tunnel the unhooked guy before he can get away. Game after game after game this is the strategy of every 9 out of 10 killers.

Its absolutely awful for the person being tunneled and its boring as hell for the remaining survivors.

Dont give me "its a legit strategy" approach. Its garbage and has completely ruined one side kf the game.

They need to make some extreme changes to make this playable again. Its only worth it in SWF or playing killer now.

Doubling back isn't camping. Doubling back works because of 1 of two things.

1: Survivors are camping killer hooks. If you don't let me walk to the gen I know is being worked on, it's your fault.

2: Your team is being over altruistic and the unhook is obvious

In short: Stealth is part of the game. Knowing when is a good time to unhook, is part of the game.

only1biggs said:

@The_Crusader said:
Justicar said:

It's your own fault. If you'd quit camping the gens then I wouldn't need to tunnel and camp you to keep you off them.

They talk about wanting rational discourse then give us posts like these....

I think this was a joke.

Question marks.

Pretty sure it is a joke and sort of a funny way to point out the absurdity of complaining about camping.

Justicar said:

It's your own fault. If you'd quit camping the gens then I wouldn't need to tunnel and camp you to keep you off them.

SAVE US

@Rebel_Raven said:
only1biggs said:

@The_Crusader said:

Justicar said:

It's your own fault. If you'd quit camping the gens then I wouldn't need to tunnel and camp you to keep you off them.

They talk about wanting rational discourse then give us posts like these....

I think this was a joke.

Question marks.

Pretty sure it is a joke and sort of a funny way to point out the absurdity of complaining about camping.

I read it as him/her mocking killers who camp LOL

Wolf74 said:

@only1biggs said:

@FengMinLithe said:
If survivors stop looping and gen rushing then maybe they’ll stop camping and tunneling.

Looping is the game. Killers need to know how to loop better than the survivor, not respect pallets, know how to mind game certain tiles etc etc.

Gen rushing is as stupid as saying kill rushing.

Camping and tunneling is a person problem not a game problem. It's much more effective (and fun for all) and you get more pressure in chasing another and doing damage.

I'm really not sure if you're memeing -.-

First off: "Looping is NOT the game". Looping was unintended. It got sanctioned by the Devs, because they did not dare change it. Technically it is by definition an exploit. Just "accepted" by the Devs.

For the 2nd thing, I just repost something old:

"Gen rush" is just a term that describes the mismatch in time it takes to chase and hook a survivor, compared to the gens that could be done in that time.

If it takes 3 gens to hook someone, the killer is forced to camp to get one kill and remove one player from the game. There are only 2 gens left and another chase while 3 survivor keep doing the objective is destined to fail. With most likely all escaping.

As a killer it is hard to keep pressure on the gens and trying to hook at the same time. Hooking is the only form of lasting damage to survivors.
Just chase them for a hit and than let them go to keep pressuring the gens is very unsatisfying, because that survivor will just heal up and keep going. But if you tunnel him to finish him you lose at least 2 gens.

Gen rush is not just the time it takes to do a gen. Gen rush can not be fixed by increasing the time it takes to do a gen. It is about the chase (loops, windows, pallets, healing).

And of course it gets worse with proper survivor items and builds (BNP, purple toolbox, etc.).

FengMinLithe said:

Can KiraElijah said:

Wolf74 said:

@only1biggs said:

@FengMinLithe said:
If survivors stop looping and gen rushing then maybe they’ll stop camping and tunneling.

Looping is the game. Killers need to know how to loop better than the survivor, not respect pallets, know how to mind game certain tiles etc etc.

Gen rushing is as stupid as saying kill rushing.

Camping and tunneling is a person problem not a game problem. It's much more effective (and fun for all) and you get more pressure in chasing another and doing damage.

I'm really not sure if you're memeing -.-

First off: "Looping is NOT the game". Looping was unintended. It got sanctioned by the Devs, because they did not dare change it. Technically it is by definition an exploit. Just "accepted" by the Devs.

For the 2nd thing, I just repost something old:

"Gen rush" is just a term that describes the mismatch in time it takes to chase and hook a survivor, compared to the gens that could be done in that time.

If it takes 3 gens to hook someone, the killer is forced to camp to get one kill and remove one player from the game. There are only 2 gens left and another chase while 3 survivor keep doing the objective is destined to fail. With most likely all escaping.

As a killer it is hard to keep pressure on the gens and trying to hook at the same time. Hooking is the only form of lasting damage to survivors.
Just chase them for a hit and than let them go to keep pressuring the gens is very unsatisfying, because that survivor will just heal up and keep going. But if you tunnel him to finish him you lose at least 2 gens.

Gen rush is not just the time it takes to do a gen. Gen rush can not be fixed by increasing the time it takes to do a gen. It is about the chase (loops, windows, pallets, healing).

And of course it gets worse with proper survivor items and builds (BNP, purple toolbox, etc.).

Can @KiraElijah said: 😂

From what I’ve seen console is better for survivors, put pc seems easier for killers.

godren said:

mindgame survivors near safe loops? ooh can't wait to be in your lobby as a survivor. as for the rest it's the same as saying you need to learn how to deal with camping noobs etc. another comment same meaning.

Exactly 

only1biggs said:

@Zarathos said:
only1biggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@wouldntyouliketoknow said:

@Wolf74 said:

@The_Crusader said:

Seriously.

If the game isn't lagging unbearably then it's just a tunnel fest.

Dont give me "its a legit strategy" approach. Its garbage and has completely ruined one side kf the game.

They need to make some extreme changes to make this playable again. Its only worth it in SWF or playing killer now.

Oh who would have guessed that?

A survivor main is asking for killer to play stupid.

Why should a killer NOT tunnel and turn a 4v1 into a 3v1 as soon as possible?

Why do survivor always think that killer have to care about their "fun"?

That's why the devs need to do something about it, you defending sh**ty behavior doesn't make it justifiable, and just because you can doesn't mean you should. That's just childish honestly.

You can still have fun, be in control, get all survivors without resorting to cheap tactics, but also, if survivors stop having fun, who are you going to get to play against? _USE YOUR HEAD. _

And survivor showing "######### behavior" is fine?

Spoiling killers fun is ok?

If they stop playing, who do you get to play against?

You are right in one point "the Devs need to do something". 

Balance the frickin , instead of catering to the survivor.

Survivors showing "#########" behaviour can be killed in game. If they set out to annoy you with their harmful, nasty crouches, or clicking a flashlight at you repeatedly, you can chase them, catch them and kill them.

If they are just playing the game normally and are better than you at cutting loops properly, mind gaming and running tiles correctly, and you can't catch them quickly so you NEED to camp and tunnel, then you're doing it wrong and are just being spiteful and ruining people's games.

Balance has nothing to do with the above.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that every 4th game im getting people map offering coldwind farm because 4 survivours are gonna inevitably have one of those annoying map offerings. At the very least the game maps was improved to have more pallets and for some reason has rng where hooks will not spawn on one level for some reason.

But getting into exactly why balance is an issue you can see through the cracks of jungle gyms on these maps so killers cannot mindgame these loops forced into a position to brute force a loop which is never optimum. As a result of this map design killer needs to force survivours into dead zones camping and patrolling. But clearly you dont understand your tiles otherwise you would see how unbalanced the core map design is.

I learned this through my countless hundred hours of playing survivour. You need to play killer and survivor to a high level before getting involved with balance discussions. Tunneling is an excuse you couldnt lose the killer despite your peers having consistently proven that even the best killers can be shaken and you wont even needs perks to do it.

We killers arent here to entertain we aim to kill its our goal our objective. I dont expect survivours to slow gen progression because the game was stupidly short. Dont you dare expect killers to play nice. If we know you make terrible saves we will exploit that weakness to take as many hands off gens.
I will adjust my gameplay depeneding on how survivours are playing if they struggle but if I see ruin explode at the start or 2 or 3 gens are left with every survivour still up i will do what it takes to remove a player.

Tunneling is an excuse for bad teamplay or a failure to shake the killer. Adjust your game play use iron will, run urban evasiondance with me. Spine chill, premonition don't assume a killer will play nice and don't expect your ally randos to play smart. 

Getting map offerings is a pain, I agree. Especially Coldwind which still needs tarp thrown over the walls.
Sometimes you just gotta take the loss. It happens.

I understand all the tiles and how poorly some of the maps are designed, thank you. I have over 4k hours since Beta and now across all platforms. Compared to your...what was it? "Countless hundred" -.-

I play both killer and survivor at a high level (70% killer). If you're referring to rank, then, lol, but both survivor and killer at rank 1. Again with your unearned condescension.

You say, "we killers aren't here to entertain we aim to kill it's our goal our objective", like someone has a gun to your head. Its a game. Don't take it so seriously with this kind of talk and you'll be more open to rational discourse and not get titled by whatever it is you are titled by. "Oh no! My Ruin! Must tunnel and camp, there's no other way!!".

You can tunnel and camp as you wish, but it is and always will be scummy and a poor tactic. More pressure can be applied with hooking another survivor in the time it takes to stand still and watch them for two minutes.

I agree...randos will usually be stupid. I fear survivors more than killers, because most killers are trash, but guess what? They still get their kills. Usually by camping. Or tunneling. It's gross. They make mistake after mistake and expect different results so just resort to the ez camp/tunnel, instead of learning to chase better.

Camping works for the most part because survivors don't like to just sit on gens. They enjoy trying to help each other. They enjoy being chased. Camping is fundamentally a bad strategy and is more than likely not fun for anyone involved. If as a killer you think it's not boring to camp, you're just one of those people that are sh!t at parties maybe?

Dosent adress survivours inability to shake killers talk about rank not mattering without realising
A. I dont mention rank. In my earlier statement. 
B. Rank matters early in the season not so much near the end. However rank is often undermined by weak players who run ds ranking up by virtue of being too much trouble to bother chasing.
C. I respond to your post with condescension as your post earlier screamed arrogance and egotism.
D. Your assuming killers are all built for the chase which is nonsense e.g. Bubba defense builds, myers stealth builds, huntress by design is punished for hunting due to her movement speed being lower and her lulaby being directional. 
E. I will not take my loss because survivours throwed a map offering,ds, instas and mist. I will play to my victory conditions regardless of whether or not survivours are having fun if they brazenly try to screw me over. If that means baiting survivours into deadzones using their friend as bait. 

Believe me i want to chase to not camp but im sick of being screwed by poor map design and being told git gud take your loss stop trying to tilt the game in your favour while survivours brazenly take advantage of every mechanic available to them. 

The most exciting survivour game i had was against a camping huntress who could cross map hatchet players and sticking close to hooked players. Juggling, gens, totems and hooked players from a high up location through expert evasion well timed saves and smart play we got to exit gates but ultimately lost due to misplays made near the end.

If we play the game by your standards we will never see thrilling games like this every game will be a by the numbers chase with the threat of the killer capitalisng off a bad save non existent thus distilling the tense experiance if dbd.

Im not against giving survivours a chance when behind, I'm against giving survivours sanctuaries and guarranted allowances that would otherwise distil the tense nature of DBD. 

@Zarathos said:
only1biggs said:

@Zarathos said:

only1biggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@wouldntyouliketoknow said:

@Wolf74 said:

@The_Crusader said:

Seriously.

If the game isn't lagging unbearably then it's just a tunnel fest.

Dont give me "its a legit strategy" approach. Its garbage and has completely ruined one side kf the game.

They need to make some extreme changes to make this playable again. Its only worth it in SWF or playing killer now.



Oh who would have guessed that?

A survivor main is asking for killer to play stupid.

Why should a killer NOT tunnel and turn a 4v1 into a 3v1 as soon as possible?

Why do survivor always think that killer have to care about their "fun"?



That's why the devs need to do something about it, you defending sh**ty behavior doesn't make it justifiable, and just because you can doesn't mean you should. That's just childish honestly.

You can still have fun, be in control, get all survivors without resorting to cheap tactics, but also, if survivors stop having fun, who are you going to get to play against? _USE YOUR HEAD. _

And survivor showing "######### behavior" is fine?

Spoiling killers fun is ok?

If they stop playing, who do you get to play against?

You are right in one point "the Devs need to do something".

Balance the frickin , instead of catering to the survivor.



Survivors showing "#########" behaviour can be killed in game. If they set out to annoy you with their harmful, nasty crouches, or clicking a flashlight at you repeatedly, you can chase them, catch them and kill them.

If they are just playing the game normally and are better than you at cutting loops properly, mind gaming and running tiles correctly, and you can't catch them quickly so you NEED to camp and tunnel, then you're doing it wrong and are just being spiteful and ruining people's games.

Balance has nothing to do with the above.



Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that every 4th game im getting people map offering coldwind farm because 4 survivours are gonna inevitably have one of those annoying map offerings. At the very least the game maps was improved to have more pallets and for some reason has rng where hooks will not spawn on one level for some reason.

But getting into exactly why balance is an issue you can see through the cracks of jungle gyms on these maps so killers cannot mindgame these loops forced into a position to brute force a loop which is never optimum. As a result of this map design killer needs to force survivours into dead zones camping and patrolling. But clearly you dont understand your tiles otherwise you would see how unbalanced the core map design is.

I learned this through my countless hundred hours of playing survivour. You need to play killer and survivor to a high level before getting involved with balance discussions. Tunneling is an excuse you couldnt lose the killer despite your peers having consistently proven that even the best killers can be shaken and you wont even needs perks to do it.

We killers arent here to entertain we aim to kill its our goal our objective. I dont expect survivours to slow gen progression because the game was stupidly short. Dont you dare expect killers to play nice. If we know you make terrible saves we will exploit that weakness to take as many hands off gens.

I will adjust my gameplay depeneding on how survivours are playing if they struggle but if I see ruin explode at the start or 2 or 3 gens are left with every survivour still up i will do what it takes to remove a player.

Tunneling is an excuse for bad teamplay or a failure to shake the killer. Adjust your game play use iron will, run urban evasiondance with me. Spine chill, premonition don't assume a killer will play nice and don't expect your ally randos to play smart. 

Getting map offerings is a pain, I agree. Especially Coldwind which still needs tarp thrown over the walls.

Sometimes you just gotta take the loss. It happens.

I understand all the tiles and how poorly some of the maps are designed, thank you. I have over 4k hours since Beta and now across all platforms. Compared to your...what was it? "Countless hundred" -.-

I play both killer and survivor at a high level (70% killer). If you're referring to rank, then, lol, but both survivor and killer at rank 1. Again with your unearned condescension.

You say, "we killers aren't here to entertain we aim to kill it's our goal our objective", like someone has a gun to your head. Its a game. Don't take it so seriously with this kind of talk and you'll be more open to rational discourse and not get titled by whatever it is you are titled by. "Oh no! My Ruin! Must tunnel and camp, there's no other way!!".

You can tunnel and camp as you wish, but it is and always will be scummy and a poor tactic. More pressure can be applied with hooking another survivor in the time it takes to stand still and watch them for two minutes.

I agree...randos will usually be stupid. I fear survivors more than killers, because most killers are trash, but guess what? They still get their kills. Usually by camping. Or tunneling. It's gross. They make mistake after mistake and expect different results so just resort to the ez camp/tunnel, instead of learning to chase better.

Camping works for the most part because survivors don't like to just sit on gens. They enjoy trying to help each other. They enjoy being chased. Camping is fundamentally a bad strategy and is more than likely not fun for anyone involved. If as a killer you think it's not boring to camp, you're just one of those people that are sh!t at parties maybe?

Dosent adress survivours inability to shake killers talk about rank not mattering without realising
A. I dont mention rank. In my earlier statement. 
B. Rank matters early in the season not so much near the end. However rank is often undermined by weak players who run ds ranking up by virtue of being too much trouble to bother chasing.
C. I respond to your post with condescension as your post earlier screamed arrogance and egotism.
D. Your assuming killers are all built for the chase which is nonsense e.g. Bubba defense builds, myers stealth builds, huntress by design is punished for hunting due to her movement speed being lower and her lulaby being directional. 
E. I will not take my loss because survivours throwed a map offering,ds, instas and mist. I will play to my victory conditions regardless of whether or not survivours are having fun if they brazenly try to screw me over. If that means baiting survivours into deadzones using their friend as bait. 

Believe me i want to chase to not camp but im sick of being screwed by poor map design and being told git gud take your loss stop trying to tilt the game in your favour while survivours brazenly take advantage of every mechanic available to them. 

The most exciting survivour game i had was against a camping huntress who could cross map hatchet players and sticking close to hooked players. Juggling, gens, totems and hooked players from a high up location through expert evasion well timed saves and smart play we got to exit gates but ultimately lost due to misplays made near the end.

If we play the game by your standards we will never see thrilling games like this every game will be a by the numbers chase with the threat of the killer capitalisng off a bad save non existent thus distilling the tense experiance if dbd.

Im not against giving survivours a chance when behind, I'm against giving survivours sanctuaries and guarranted allowances that would otherwise distil the tense nature of DBD. 

I also didn't mention rank, I was asking for clarification. I was asking about your "high level" comment, followed by a LOL at the idea of rank. Why am I always having to type things out again? Read again, understand the words, then reply to me. Or not. Also, I have had the same situations you dislike, of Coldwind/4xDS/Mists...and I win. WITHOUT camping.

Git gud o/

Orion said:

@Malakir said:
Thank you for the straw man now I know i have to skip you answers

I do the same thing, but he figures it's because his comments are pearls of wisdom and truth that I'm just trying to avoid.

He seems to thing because he gets potato survivors he is good.😂

only1biggs said:

@Zarathos said:
only1biggs said:

@Zarathos said:

only1biggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@wouldntyouliketoknow said:

@Wolf74 said:

@The_Crusader said:

Seriously.

If the game isn't lagging unbearably then it's just a tunnel fest.

Dont give me "its a legit strategy" approach. Its garbage and has completely ruined one side kf the game.

They need to make some extreme changes to make this playable again. Its only worth it in SWF or playing killer now.



Oh who would have guessed that?

A survivor main is asking for killer to play stupid.

Why should a killer NOT tunnel and turn a 4v1 into a 3v1 as soon as possible?

Why do survivor always think that killer have to care about their "fun"?



That's why the devs need to do something about it, you defending sh**ty behavior doesn't make it justifiable, and just because you can doesn't mean you should. That's just childish honestly.

You can still have fun, be in control, get all survivors without resorting to cheap tactics, but also, if survivors stop having fun, who are you going to get to play against? _USE YOUR HEAD. _

And survivor showing "######### behavior" is fine?

Spoiling killers fun is ok?

If they stop playing, who do you get to play against?

You are right in one point "the Devs need to do something".

Balance the frickin , instead of catering to the survivor.



Survivors showing "#########" behaviour can be killed in game. If they set out to annoy you with their harmful, nasty crouches, or clicking a flashlight at you repeatedly, you can chase them, catch them and kill them.

If they are just playing the game normally and are better than you at cutting loops properly, mind gaming and running tiles correctly, and you can't catch them quickly so you NEED to camp and tunnel, then you're doing it wrong and are just being spiteful and ruining people's games.

Balance has nothing to do with the above.



Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that every 4th game im getting people map offering coldwind farm because 4 survivours are gonna inevitably have one of those annoying map offerings. At the very least the game maps was improved to have more pallets and for some reason has rng where hooks will not spawn on one level for some reason.

But getting into exactly why balance is an issue you can see through the cracks of jungle gyms on these maps so killers cannot mindgame these loops forced into a position to brute force a loop which is never optimum. As a result of this map design killer needs to force survivours into dead zones camping and patrolling. But clearly you dont understand your tiles otherwise you would see how unbalanced the core map design is.

I learned this through my countless hundred hours of playing survivour. You need to play killer and survivor to a high level before getting involved with balance discussions. Tunneling is an excuse you couldnt lose the killer despite your peers having consistently proven that even the best killers can be shaken and you wont even needs perks to do it.

We killers arent here to entertain we aim to kill its our goal our objective. I dont expect survivours to slow gen progression because the game was stupidly short. Dont you dare expect killers to play nice. If we know you make terrible saves we will exploit that weakness to take as many hands off gens.

I will adjust my gameplay depeneding on how survivours are playing if they struggle but if I see ruin explode at the start or 2 or 3 gens are left with every survivour still up i will do what it takes to remove a player.

Tunneling is an excuse for bad teamplay or a failure to shake the killer. Adjust your game play use iron will, run urban evasiondance with me. Spine chill, premonition don't assume a killer will play nice and don't expect your ally randos to play smart. 

Getting map offerings is a pain, I agree. Especially Coldwind which still needs tarp thrown over the walls.

Sometimes you just gotta take the loss. It happens.

I understand all the tiles and how poorly some of the maps are designed, thank you. I have over 4k hours since Beta and now across all platforms. Compared to your...what was it? "Countless hundred" -.-

I play both killer and survivor at a high level (70% killer). If you're referring to rank, then, lol, but both survivor and killer at rank 1. Again with your unearned condescension.

You say, "we killers aren't here to entertain we aim to kill it's our goal our objective", like someone has a gun to your head. Its a game. Don't take it so seriously with this kind of talk and you'll be more open to rational discourse and not get titled by whatever it is you are titled by. "Oh no! My Ruin! Must tunnel and camp, there's no other way!!".

You can tunnel and camp as you wish, but it is and always will be scummy and a poor tactic. More pressure can be applied with hooking another survivor in the time it takes to stand still and watch them for two minutes.

I agree...randos will usually be stupid. I fear survivors more than killers, because most killers are trash, but guess what? They still get their kills. Usually by camping. Or tunneling. It's gross. They make mistake after mistake and expect different results so just resort to the ez camp/tunnel, instead of learning to chase better.

Camping works for the most part because survivors don't like to just sit on gens. They enjoy trying to help each other. They enjoy being chased. Camping is fundamentally a bad strategy and is more than likely not fun for anyone involved. If as a killer you think it's not boring to camp, you're just one of those people that are sh!t at parties maybe?

Dosent adress survivours inability to shake killers talk about rank not mattering without realising
A. I dont mention rank. In my earlier statement. 
B. Rank matters early in the season not so much near the end. However rank is often undermined by weak players who run ds ranking up by virtue of being too much trouble to bother chasing.
C. I respond to your post with condescension as your post earlier screamed arrogance and egotism.
D. Your assuming killers are all built for the chase which is nonsense e.g. Bubba defense builds, myers stealth builds, huntress by design is punished for hunting due to her movement speed being lower and her lulaby being directional. 
E. I will not take my loss because survivours throwed a map offering,ds, instas and mist. I will play to my victory conditions regardless of whether or not survivours are having fun if they brazenly try to screw me over. If that means baiting survivours into deadzones using their friend as bait. 

Believe me i want to chase to not camp but im sick of being screwed by poor map design and being told git gud take your loss stop trying to tilt the game in your favour while survivours brazenly take advantage of every mechanic available to them. 

The most exciting survivour game i had was against a camping huntress who could cross map hatchet players and sticking close to hooked players. Juggling, gens, totems and hooked players from a high up location through expert evasion well timed saves and smart play we got to exit gates but ultimately lost due to misplays made near the end.

If we play the game by your standards we will never see thrilling games like this every game will be a by the numbers chase with the threat of the killer capitalisng off a bad save non existent thus distilling the tense experiance if dbd.

Im not against giving survivours a chance when behind, I'm against giving survivours sanctuaries and guarranted allowances that would otherwise distil the tense nature of DBD. 

I also didn't mention rank, I was asking for clarification. I was asking about your "high level" comment, followed by a LOL at the idea of rank. Why am I always having to type things out again? Read again, understand the words, then reply to me. Or not. Also, I have had the same situations you dislike, of Coldwind/4xDS/Mists...and I win. WITHOUT camping.

Git gud o/

How you do as killer is dependent on your survivors.

I think some people forgot that this thread is about the OP thinking survivor is unplayable, I think we should circle back to that and have a discussion and not a argumen.