Nemesis is C Tier Sadly (Debatably D Tier)
After playing many games with Nemesis over the past few days, I feel as though there is nothing that great about Nemesis and his power. People compare him to Pyramid Head, and while yes that is true, his power is nowhere near as strong. He has too many flaws that make his power more of a hindrance than a blessing. Overall, I rate him as a C tier at best until he receives some further buffs.
First off, the hitbox doesn’t make any sense for his tentacle strike. The things in which you can hit over seem to mostly consist of just pallets and windows, and even then sometimes you get robbed of hits through or over them because of some random invisible hitbox you may collide with. Being that it is also a very skinny hitbox, it actually ends up being quite easy to dodge (and also makes it very janky with dedicated servers giving him hits that don’t really make sense). Maybe redesigning how the tentacle strike hits (like make it come out sort of diagonally) could buff it in some way.
Secondly, his tiering up is rather pointless. Tier 2 proves rather useful with breaking pallets, but tier 3 is a complete joke. I think that tier 2 should receive the range of tier 3, and tier 3 should receive additional range and allow for multiple hits (to damage and break pallets simultaneously would be awesome). Getting from tier 2 to 3 should also be a tad bit faster in my opinion, and the addons that increase mutation rate should be lowered so that they aren’t as necessary to make Nemesis good.
Thirdly, his zombies seem to have gotten worse since the PTB. They get stuck all the time, are way too RNG, and half the time are never where you may need them to be. I feel a small buff that can be given to Nemesis and his zombies is a way to call your zombies to your current location. Especially in situations where a gen needs pressuring, I think the ability to call a zombie (or both) to your aid would be awesome. It would also make the zombie speed addons more impactful to their gameplay. They also need to have their movements adjusted (or hitboxes or whatever is causing the issue, so that they don’t travel into areas where they may be stuck or might collide and continue walking into a hitbox (since some like to run at trees).
Lastly, his first hit on a survivor with his tentacle strike (the one that only contaminates survivors) should not grant a speed boost. His power ultimately has the same issue that original Mettle of Man had, in that it essentially grants the survivors an additional health state. This makes chases go on way too long, and holding W becomes such a weakness for him. I would maybe understand letting them get the speed boost in the off chance they’re hit by a zombie first because it could give them some chance to avoid being double hit in a chase, but to be honest the removal of the speed boost should probably also apply to zombies as well so that it gives Nemesis some type of snowball pressure.
Comments
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I would also like to add that his add ons are mostly useless, or have too little of an effect on his power.
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I would mainly focus on his addons tbh, cause Nemesis is a dangerous gamble when trying to buff him, he is STRONG on loops.
Allowing him to break both pallets and dmg survivors at the same time would be too much.
And his zombies need some stuff fixed, like mentioned, they get stuck often (even on nothing) but theres two particular issues that should get fixed, facecamping and basement, i feel zombies shouldnt be allowed to get into the stairs of the basement or anywhere near a hooked survivor.
One particular idea someone mentioned was to increase the amount of zombies based on the map, but who knows how that would go.
Idk about "calling them", i feel that would put way too much pressure.
As for the tentacle, i think its mostly fine, a long range attack shouldnt be a free hit (looking at Huntress...), as for Tier 3, i guess just allowing him to get there sooner would be enough.
Anyway, his addons and the zombies getting stuck, facecamping/blocking basement are pretty much the main issue.
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I do pretty good with him, idk maybe he's just not a good fit for you.
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I can barely even play him.
Trying tomuse his power causes huge frame drops and freezes.
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I play on PC so have fortunately not had to deal with this issue, hoping it's fixed soon.
I did have to DC one game though because my Lethal Persuer was perma active and I basically had wall hacks :)
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B tier :)
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I can agree with B tier, but I see him more in A. He lacks in map pressure but his chase is pretty strong, and he has a lot going for him with zombies applying free pressure on gens and revealing survivors.
Kinda wanna see his win rate.
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The only point I agree with here is your third point.
Sometimes his zombies are great and you can force a hit on a loop, other times they decide that there's a nice tree in the corner of the map that they'd like to hug.
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BHVR forgot to make it so his ranged attack deals damage on first hit, not surprising. He needs 2 zombies per survivor, and way better addons. His perks are just utter trash.
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It sounds like you’re just bad at him tbh
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Survivors don’t get a speed boost when they’re contaminated.
Buffed mutation rate
Make his detection yellow add on base kit (this does wonders).
That’s all the buffs he needs and he’s strong imo.
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The duality of man
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Honestly, same. I find him to be a fairly easy killer to play unless the rng of the game (maps/survivor spawn points) screw me over (say Badham Preschool with survivors spread out on 4 different gens).
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Reminds me of those "he needs a nerf/he needs a buff" threads when you place them side by side.
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Honestly nemesis needs 3 buffs, 1 fix and 1 revamp
1-Zombies as you mentioned
2-Make tier 3 more rewarding...Its only a 1 meter increase(5 to 6) and is barely better than a lunge. Instead making it whip horizontally(so its wider hitbox wise) and having it be 8 meters would be decent.
3-His Ultra-Rare addons should be revamped, specifically the Umbrella Badge....Its a expose for 12 seconds...which is insanely bad. Since by the time you'd get to the exposed survivor The timer would probably be almost out. And shattered S.T.A.R.S badge is half-bugged, If they touch anything while moving their movement speed is set back to normal before the 30 seconds is over.
4-Make Contamination actually hinder and not give a speed boost.
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Most people who put him in B tier cannot explain how he is better than killers in C tier. They just say "Oh he is good at shutting down loops".
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I still find him fun to play no matter his tier. As of now, dependant on any mid chapter nerfs, I think he will be my main fun killer. Freddy will remain my main try hard killer lol.
Although even though he is supposed to be a normal speed killer I did get ran around a rock by a David yesterday 4 times before I could hit him, this happened twice that match which I found weird as that's more a huntress speed weakness.
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So what they're saying is... He's an effective and strong killer if he's able to do that 🤔
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No because that's all they say. Clown also shuts down loops but most people have him down in D tier. When he gets rated highly, they magnify what he is good at, don't look at his down sides, don't see how his zombies do nothing most games, and can't explain how he out classes killers like Doctor for example
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Honestly my only real complaint with Nemesis is his infection. There's no big penalty to being infected as a survivor. It should at least apply hindrance to the survivor infected. I know since there's only 4 antidotes in the game and that's a balance issue but there should be a bigger threat behind being infected.
Also that speed boost survivors get once hit by the tentacle for the first time. That's pretty annoying.
Overall though, I think he's a solid killer, but he is very perk dependent, with a solid learning curve. I'm interested to see what the community comes up with Nemesis build wise in the coming months.
Oh one last thing... Behavior please, I beg you, ADD LICKERS!
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I've been playing with him for a while now. Nemesis is really not that bad of a killer and the only thing holding him down from being really good right now is the initial speed burst you get as a survivor when he infects you and the zombie AI is really wonky.
At first I thought that they just need to make sure that the AI doesn't just wander off to the corner of the map and actually goes to like generators that aren't finished yet, but the AI gets stuck on everything. Whether it's a hill, a bunch of rocks or literally just the porch of the Saloon, the AI gets stuck on everything so you're forced to kill those zombies if you want them to do anything other than standing there for the rest of the game.
It would also be more interesting if the devs allowed you to choose where the zombies go in the map as it would make the killer way more strategical and his map pressure would be a lot better. I'm not sure if that would be balanced though. The zombies are very slow still but it wouldn't be a bad idea for the survivors to have more ways to kill the zombies if they're going down this route and maybe they could link it to Tier 3 of Nemi's power since 1 extra meter of his tentacle range is pretty negligent and it's probably more balanced since Nemi would be working for his map pressure too.
But yeah... Sure there are things that could improve, but overall Nemi is really not a bad killer in my opinion.
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He's Demo without mobility
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Still doing fine with Nemesis. You guys are using him wrong.
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the speed boost he gives survivors on infection just makes him feel really bad to play
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Isn't that what makes any high tier killer good?
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I think that's kind of missing the point though. If you're good at playing killer in general, you can still manage to do ok with garbage killers like legion and trapper
If you're doing well with Nemesis, you'd do much better by picking 2/3 of the killer roster instead. It's not that it's impossible to win with him - it's that he sucks when compared to the bulk of the roster
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Because that would not do much. Adding zombies won't fix anything, especially since the A.I for them isn't exactly good.
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Nope. I'm outperforming all my Killers with him, including my Main, Bubba. And getting even nastier as I improve with him game by game.
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Okay but how? How are two thirds outright better than him? He has a ranged attacked, automatic, near unstoppable map pressure that can either waste time or pallets and he gets stronger as the game progresses. In the case of comparing to most other killers, better is a subjective opinion instead of objective.
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I would not have expected that. I'm not particularly good with Bubba but I'd be stomping with him compared to Nemmy
Unsolicited advice, but you should give PH a shot if you haven't. Mostly the same playstyle as Nemmy (punishing pallets/narrow pathways/window vaults) and you need to prep the attack a little earlier, but he's pretty much better in every other way. If you're doing well with Nemmy, you'd be steamrolling survivors with PH
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I've played plenty of PH. I don't like him; his ranged attack feels like a guessing game and his trails have basically no effect.
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Nemesis has all the boxes checked to be a B tier killer , the thing that keeps him out of A tier is map pressure in my opinion but the zombies can stall alot of interactions and force someone to get off a gen or stop healing and even if it's just 10- 15 seconds extra time by baiting them away or whatever you're still wasting that much time multiple times a game and it can add up to gens that should've been done it certain scenarios where rng of the zombies fall in his favor, I mean sure on certain a maps he's not as strong because of how big they are and him only having 2 zombies but all the smaller maps and indoor maps he does amazing on from my experiences and is literally top tier on midwich
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I was playing add on-less Nemesis yesterday and got a consistent 2k.
I was also playing extremely casual because I really want to master his “whip”. The only thing I had a problem with was gauging how far I could hit. Also for some reason it goes right through console players at times. I really don’t think he is that weak.
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Alright, let's quickly look at killers weaker than him. Trapper/Legion/Trickster/Pig/Myers/Clown/Ghostface. I think we can all agree Nemmy is better than them, at least
General consensus seems to be that S and A tier killers are leagues above Nemmy too. So let's ignore Nurse/Spirit/Blight/Hag/Oni/PH/Huntress/Twins. That's 8 killers better than him
So what's left is Freddy/Wraith/Bubba/Doctor/Plague/Billy/Slinger/Demo. We could be here for hours talking this, so I'll just make some quick points:
Demo - can shred pallets slightly better, has much better zoning, and has roughly the same range with his shred. Can hit much easier (not a tiny hitbox). Does not require 3 hits to down. Portals are Ok-ish at times
Slinger - I never played him so I can't really comment
Billy - Sad chainsaw boy isn't as good as he used to be. Map mobility is still great though, as is the occasional insta-down
Plague - Infection is 100 times better than contamination, and you only need to get a small bit on them. Downs typically require one hit rather than 3. Ranged ability is objectively leagues better, but time limited
Doctor - Far better tracking, passive slowdown caused by madness tier 3 if used properly, better anti-loop. He's pretty basic, but doesn't require 3 hits to down
Bubba - Pallet shredding monster with an insta-down. Windows can be a problem but both he and Nemmy require you to be close to the survivor to do damage, and Bubba in close range is waaaaay more dangerous than Nemmy
Wraith - Map mobility now is crazy good, and post-uncloak lunge is a pretty solid anti-loop tool. Combine that with the mangled add-on and MYC, Nemmy is nowhere near as lethal and difficult to play around. Wraith can almost always get a first hit for "free"
Freddy - he's whatever but gen teleporting map mobility is still solid and snares are better anti-loop than tentacle
That's 16 killers that Nemmy is worse than, imo. 2/3 of the killer roster. You might be seeing a common trend here - none of these other killers require 3 hits to down.
One other point - honest question, which of these killers has a worse early game than Nemmy? Oni and Myers would be the only ones I can think of, and Oni has plenty to compensate for that later on
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That's mobility
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Let's break it down: I should start this by saying this is written with the confidence that his speed boost on infection will be done away with.
Demo: Honestly don't know as I rarely play against him and never played as him.
Slinger: Slower movements speed, dropping a pallet early means he CAN take 3 hits to down and also stun himself doing it. No map pressure.
Doctor: Better tracking? Absolutely. However it takes shocks, can't destroy pallets quickly so I'm not seeing how it's a "better anti-loop." He's also very easily deprived of his tracking with either one perk or a locker.
Billy: All he has is mobility and insta down, which is pretty map dependent.
Plague: Probably slightly better but that's only because his infect gives speed boost. I'd rate them the same when that's fixed. If they don't cleanse, she has no ranged unless add-ons and it can take her 3 hits since her non powered puke counts as one and isn't an immediate injury.
Bubba: Probably, yeah.
Wraith has mobility and thus map pressure, but a meh anti-loop without the right add-ons. You know he's basically just a fast and stealthy M1 killer.
Freddy: Snares are not a better anti-loop, they only affect sleeping targets and require time to set. Someone can still trigger a snare and keep the loop up. He has good slowdown and pressure by teleports though.
His biggest problem is the speed boost on initial infection, because without that he's much better. Then it would be no different from Plague puke or Doc shock.
As for worse early game: Trapper, Ghostface, Haaag? Pig is a mix imo, early game can either go really well or really badly. Deathslinger (slow movement speed) Doctor can be really bad if you stupid your static blast and find no one. But yeah, his early game is basically just the same as Oni.
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I think if all they did was take the speed boost away on the first hit, would do wonders for him.
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Im gonna stop you there, Lethal Pursuer is easily a strong perk, like REALLY strong, being able to start a chase right away and probably get a hook is no laughing matter.
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Mobility is a factor, but like Nurse is generally considering the best killer and her map mobility is okayish since she can't really blink across larger maps.
It's really lethality that's the biggest factor, because the quicker you can get down the quicker you can snowball and prevent survivors from having time to do gens. And Nemesis' lethality suffers due to needing 3 hits when survivors aren't contaminated and then survivors have access to 4 (3 with an addon) vaccines to give them another hit against the power which if used early can really shut down Nemesis ability to snowball.
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Ah, if we're talking about Nemmy after a post-contamination speed boost is removed, that's a pretty big buff and I would agree he'd be much better after that. Feels like that's the biggest thing shooting him in the foot right now. I'd definitely agree that 2/3 of the roster would not be better than him if that change went through. I guess I should've just simplified my wall of text to just say that the speed boost is what's holding Nemmy back imo. Removing that would really make him much much better
Doc I feel is a bit underrated. Currently on a 20ish game win streak with him. You can pretty much get full madness with 4 shocks, which happens pretty quickly around a loop. As far as anti-loop goes, dedicated servers kind of make it so that you almost never prevent a vault or pallet drop, but it works out well anyways because then they'll be stuck on one side and you can either go around to get a hit, or at the least, zone them out and pallet break. If they don't drop the pallet, they will eventually go down, it's just a matter of time. It's true that lockers will pretty much hard counter the static blast but it's still wasting time if they're going to hide in lockers, so it's not a net loss overall either way. First static blast of the game is pretty much a more useful version of Lethal Pursuer if you have a rough idea of spawn locations on maps already
True true, I forgot about setup killers. Agreed on pig as well. Does suck when you completely miss the first static blast as doc but that's pretty rare in my experience
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Oh I'm not putting down the Doc at all! He's my main killer. It's why I never put much stock in tier lists when I could reliably fight red ranks as the Doctor (I'm actually a fairly bad killer, too) and usually end up with majority kills and even a 4k last I tried. My argument is always that I don't see him as underpowered or overpowered, he's just really annoying.
That being said, he is the sole reason The Game needs to be removed. Agitation + Starstruck + Fixated + Iron Maiden on the game is some BS.
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No because Clown shuts down loops and he isn't high tier.
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I agree that he’s incredibly weak but I think his mutation rate is fine how it is. It’s really not difficult to tier up if you actually use the power. The problem comes with the power being worse than M1 in most situations. I think removing the speed boost from a contamination hit would instantly make him more fun to play and move him to B tier and if they made tiers more important by adding a faster cool down as you go up it would make tiering up actually worth it. Right now it’s 2.5 seconds all the time but if they made it 3s then 2.5s then 2s at tier 3 it would make the tiers matter more. You only really need one of these changes to fix him to a point that he’s useable and both would make him likely A tier.
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