Nemesis is not weak, he is a B tier killer
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More than weak I found him very boring to play as and zombies are 0% interactive and useless in outdoor maps
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I don't get all these "he's bottom tier" comments. He has a few flaws like the zombies being in my opinion slower and less responsive than ptb but overall he's really good.
I've played 12 games as him now. Had haddonfield, ormond, mothers dwelling etc and I've 4k'd every game except my first (Temple of Purgation while going for adept, still got 1K with 8 hooks).
Now I know I haven't faced a god tier swf yet but I haven't had a game vs 4 potatoes either. I've probably had a good mix each game but all of high ranks. I think after some quality of life changes he'll be in a great place.
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In my experience just don't use the tentacle at all unless they are infected already (zombies or they are cornered so the speed boost doesn't matter).
Just m1, Survivors mind game themselves at pallets.
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I don't get all these "he's bottom tier" comments. He has a few flaws like the zombies being in my opinion slower and less responsive than ptb but overall he's really good.Then clearly you haven't read any of the points of contention that people in this thread have brought up that are valid.
I've played 12 games as him now. Had haddonfield, ormond, mothers dwelling etc and I've 4k'd every game except my first (Temple of Purgation while going for adept, still got 1K with 8 hooks).Ok? This doesn't mean anything.
Now I know I haven't faced a god tier swf yet but I haven't had a game vs 4 potatoes either. I've probably had a good mix each game but all of high ranks. I think after some quality of life changes he'll be in a great place.Most games you play you won't find very optimized survivors, nor even decent survivors because how they base the game.
Again, rank doesn't matter and its only used for match making. At a red rank you are liable to find the worse players in the game who accidently/purposely where boosted by the rank system, or god survivors who should fit the idea of what it should be like to be in the highest rank in game.
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Honestly the only thing they have in common is that they both have some way of infecting survivors that can also be used to injure and down them. Similarities stop there though, everything from how the actual infection works to how you want to use it in chases is different. Even the ability to get rid of it is different. Personally I think Nemesis is pretty good. Just like last chapter I've been taking data and so far with 12 games as Nemesis so far, I have a solid 75% kill rate with him.
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"You only need to hit survivors three times a maximum of four times a game"
Hit survivor A 3 times
Hit survivor B 3 times
hit survivor C 3 times
hit survivor D 3 times
A, B, C, and D all vaccinate
hit survivor A 3 times.....etc.
Your math is wrong, it's 8 times per match. 4 at the start and then 4 vaccines, you can reduce the number to 7 if you take the add-on to get rid of a vaccine.
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That's why I didn't buy him. I knew he'd get nerfed lol
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Honestly his power needs a rework imo. When you look at what it does and what it's supposed to do, it's kinda funny how bad it is.
Here, let me break it down for you. So fun fact, the tentacle infection slap is supposed to make the survivor hindered. However the speed boost from the infection hit completely negates the hindered effect, as they wind up halfway across the map after being slapped. Now, say we take away the speed boost from the initial hit. That would make it easier for Nemesis to capitalize off of hindering survivors right? WRONG!
The hindered status effect lasts for only 0.25 seconds after being infected. A quarter of a second. "Oh but in that small time, the killer can gain a little distance." Wrong again. After Nemesis smacks someone with his tentacle he is then forced in to an attack animation cooldown for 2 seconds. Meaning that again, Nemesis can never ever capitalize off of the hindered status effect that he causes, with or without the speed boost. Add on to that that being infected actually doesn't really have any negative consequences for the survivors themselves. Sure you're vulnerable to being damaged by his tentacle, but I mean the hit box on that is so thin that it can be easily avoided. But even then, the range is just ok on the tentacle. An extra 5m (6 at T3) isn't really much especially when you have other killers in the game who have better ranged attacks that are harder to dodge.
Look I like the killer, I think he's a lot of fun to play as. But when looking at his powers especially the part where he has a literal useless part to it that he can never take advantage of, and that other killers have similar but better versions of his powers, I think he might need to be looked at and have his power reworked a bit...
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PH hits through walls
Nemmy can't hit over a small rock if the survivor is crouched. He can't hit through the side of a window from 45 degrees. He can't hit over most cars. He definitely can't hit through solid walls. AND he needs 3 hits to down when his attack is much harder to land than PH's.
The only reason to play Nemmy over a handful of other killers right now is if you just really like the character. He is objectively worse than the majority of A and B tier killers. Nowhere near as good as PH/Huntress/Demo/Plague etc. right now
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Nemesis is C tier in my list. He doesn't really have anything going for him except zombies but the AI is so bad they can body block you and hurt you more than help you. The speed boost he gets isn't "minor" because you basically have to hit them 3 times. It would be strong if it contaminated them and hurt them. His whip has such a short ranged its easier to M1 them. Zombies are bad in most maps only maps that they're a bit helpful is closed maps. He needs buffs hes not viable in red ranks.
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Hes not weak but definitely not strong. Its takes a considertable amount of time to reach tier 3 depending on the map, cause in open maps you can't use the tentacle attack cause its easy to dodge. So by the time you build your power in most cases you are still with 3 survivors alive and 1 or 0 gens left.
Sincesarlly the mutation mechanic is plain stupid. Other ranged killers like huntress or PH don't need to build anything and they have their full power. Nemesis shoudn't be an exception, and its not like you get a greater power than PH or Huntress for building it, you just get the same but you have to work for it.
And to finalize its not like infected status or zombies do anything at all. And even in tier 3 mutation you still have to infect survivor first to be able to do some damage with the tentacle, again something that PH or Huntress don't need to do at all.
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And unfortunately his power seems to be kinda broken right now, as he has an effect that he can never make use of with his powers. So honestly I don't think I can actually correctly place him in a tier until they fix his power.
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Nemesis kit is a decently well rounded one, only lacking in mobility.
He's got some tracking with contamination making survivors blue and noisy + zombies give info across map. (chasing zombie = survivor there, not chasing zombie means probably no survivor there, stunned zombie means survivor there)
Zombies can also slow down gen repair kinda passively without you doing anything by kicking survivors off gens even if only for 10-20 seconds. With ruin that 10-20 seconds means a lot. Ruin + Undying seems like a no brainer for him because of that.
Occasionally when you're lucky zombies give you some chase value by showing up on loops.
His tentacle while taking 3 hits compared to the normal 2 is a ranged attack that will go over pallets and windows and break pallets.
He's not A tier, but I don't think you can put a kit that well rounded in C tier, he's got too much going for him. With some minor improvements he's easily got A tier potential
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He is though. His abilitty to shred pallets, a damage-dealing ranged attack that still gets value at loops even if you miss by destroying said pallets and two minions who make a beeline for loops and down? Perfect Killer. Honestly I'd put him low A tier.
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Yep pretty well explained. In most cases its better just to punch people, i only use the tentacle if the survivor is going for a window or pallet and only IF i can't reach them with my fist. Hitting 3 times someone with the tentacle is very counterproductive because of the huge speed boost they get as you said. That why i think current Nemesis can get some use from STBFL. But i hope they make some changes because a killer that has to use M1 more than his power already remind me of a certain someone.. lol
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Well what I meant by his power is broken I mean that the first hit, the one that infects survivors is supposed to apply the hindered status effect to them. But there's two things. The first is, the speed boost they get from being hit with the first tentacle smack IMMEDIATELY negates the hindered effect. That's just one problem. Now say they fix that and take away the speed boost from the first tentacle attack and infects someone. That makes it better right? Nope, even without the speed boost Nemesis still does not benefit from survivors being hindered because of this.
The duration of the hindered effect upon infection is so LAUGHABLY small that it makes me wonder why even add this at all? Oh but he can gain a little bit of ground in 0.25 seconds right? Nope. Because even without the survivors getting a speed boost, Nemesis still goes through a cooldown animation for 2 seconds after landing a hit with his tentacle. So no matter what you do as the player, you can never ever benefit from this part of his power the way that it is right now. This is what I mean by broken, without even getting in to how there are no negative effects for survivors to be infected anyway.
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I have seen the points but just in my opinion he isn't anywhere near bottom 5. I've played him a lot and had great success.
Just when you compare him to other killer I don't understand it lol
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I dont see Nemesis being on the same tier as Billy... Nemesis is not a mobile killer that can traverse the map quickly or a Lethal Killer that can get downs 30 secs in the match. My standard for a B tier Killer is either Lethality or Map pressure which Nemesis is both weak at.
Sure he's strong at chases when he at tier 3 but you know whose strong at chases and considered weak as well? Clown.
I consider Nemesis weak for now as currently compared to Twins who excels at slugging and camping and Trickster who excels at 1v1 in loops, Nemesis excels at nothing.
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You haven't refuted zed points by reading them, nor stating you have had success with him.
I haven't compared him to any killer personally.
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Your math is a little off on the 3 hits. There is 4 vaccines so you have to give survivors 8 speed boosts to loops or be an M1. I agree he is B tier but to think his power is strong enough to warrant 8 extra health states for survivors is nuts.
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It is ok. But atm bugged zombies are the biggest problem. And missing attacks also...
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Yeah i agree Nemesis is very easy to predict, pretty much the same as huntress they both make noises when they pull out their ability and move extremely slow
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Nemesis cant break the pallet and injure the survivor with the same tentacle strike and if the survivor is not infected he will only get infected with a sb and no injure
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He's an A-tier killer late game, but getting there is borderline impossible if the survivors are good.
He has to land three hits per chase for a down in his first two chases on each survivor. That isn't okay.
He's C tier at best.
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When I say "when you compare him to other killers" I didn't mean you specifically, I meant it in a different way. It's hard to explain.
I've read a few of the comments but definitely not them all. Since you've seen most comments you can tell me which ones I need to refute if I miss them here.
I know he needs to hit survivors 3 times and they get a sprint burst and the zombies are really, really blind sometimes but he's still better than people are saying. Here's my reasons.
- The fact that once he gets someone infected he can hit over loops with a really quick charge up is very strong.
- When you are one side of a pallet (just after dropping it) there is no other killer that can either break the pallet or injure a survivor in 1 attack except for lopro chains on Billy. This alone makes every pallet drop very risky for a survivor. At a dropped pallet missing an attack doesn't hurt you in terms of pressure.
- Zombies gives free detection. Not the best but not the worst either.
- Even though the zombies are quite dumb and need a buff they can still change a game out of nowhere.
- Coughing survivors can help in loops with walls.
- My opinion for this but compared to most killers getting the first down is a lot easier on Nemesis.
He's like most killers. Bad early game but strong endgame. I think once you've gotten better with his power and you get good perks then you'll do good against most teams. I didn't have any good perks for most of my games and I did fine. Only had some good perks for my last few games.
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He has to hit a survivor three times to down them with his power.
Survivors get a speed boost each time you hit them, including the first hit (for contamination) that does not take away a health state.
His zombies are RNG and are terrible - you can juke them by walking behind a tree and standing still while they are chasing you.
The fact that there are four vaccines means that you can basically negate Nemesis using his power in a chase four times at the beginning of a match; four times that you can reset the killer's pressure and progress in the match to zero.
Are you... okay? Did you get tunneled and face camped by a Nemesis player today? If you want to vent, I understand, but at least be reasonable and talk about it directly, instead of claiming that a killer doesn't need buffs when he's basically as bad as Twins on their release (no offense to people who main Twins, you are wonderfully wacky individuals).
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Any killer whose power gives survivors an extra sprint burst in a chase is -NOT- going to do well in this current meta, where any additional time bought is a potential loss for the killer. This is another case of a multiplying effect that, when applied singularly to one survivor, is an inconvenience - apply it to the entire team (first whip = free sprint burst), then it gets out of hand fast. Sadly, this just further confirms that BVHR doesn't do any in house testing with people that understand the game. They put concept to paper and shove it out the door with the "Our players will test it" mentality.
Bump that.
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Nemsis is dogshit what, are u playing in yellow ranks or something
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When I say "when you compare him to other killers" I didn't mean you specifically, I meant it in a different way. It's hard to explain.Oh you meant it rhetorically, I understand what you mean now.
I've read a few of the comments but definitely not them all. Since you've seen most comments you can tell me which ones I need to refute if I miss them here.Its not my job to fact check for you nor offer other people's arguments for you. That is your job.
I know he needs to hit survivors 3 times and they get a sprint burst and the zombies are really, really blind sometimes but he's still better than people are saying. Here's my reasons.Define "Better then than people are saying".
Some people are saying he is op, others are saying he is F tier.
The fact that once he gets someone infected he can hit over loops with a really quick charge up is very strong.Not if you are playing competently, this is only effective in specific angles and it has its own mindgame potential. Safe loops are still safe, so you are getting god looped just like normal.
When you are one side of a pallet (just after dropping it) there is no other killer that can either break the pallet or injure a survivor in 1 attack except for lopro chains on Billy. This alone makes every pallet drop very risky for a survivor. At a dropped pallet missing an attack doesn't hurt you in terms of pressure.This is a lie, Bubba does just that except he downs the survivor instead. Bubba has the same mindgame issue at pallets Nemi does. So this MAY make it risky, it depends. If anything it is more effective vs the killer however because the survivors can make mistakes and the killer can't.
Zombies gives free detection. Not the best but not the worst either.Which is useless if he can't do anything with it
Even though the zombies are quite dumb and need a buff they can still change a game out of nowhere.They can, but its rare in my games at least.
Coughing survivors can help in loops with walls.Incredibly minimally, it is a advantage that is near nullified with how insignificant it is.
My opinion for this but compared to most killers getting the first down is a lot easier on Nemesis.Then you are objectively wrong. Nurse, Spirit, ect do this faster and better.
He's like most killers. Bad early game but strong endgame.He is like most killers, however end game does not cut it for a efficient killer. They need to be effective the entire trials or they are not getting they're hooks vs a good team of survs.
I think once you've gotten better with his power and you get good perks then you'll do good against most teams.I do good, I constantly 4k. This isn't because the Nemi is good though its because the survs don't know what they are doing. Every time I find those teams that do know what to do, it really shows how useless he is in alot of situations and its hard to even draw the game. It doesn't help the zombies can act as free sprint bursts at all, indirectly buffing survs.
I didn't have any good perks for most of my games and I did fine. Only had some good perks for my last few games.Then you certainly are not playing a team of survivors that are very good.
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Well I feel like I've mentioned his weaknesses in my message but I'm not going to read every single comment in a very long discussion.
A lot of people are saying he's really weak. This discussion is literally talking about him being B tier and a lot of people are arguing otherwise. To me he's B tier and I believe people are focusing too much on his weaknesses than actually focusing on his positives.
I think you misunderstood what I meant when you said about Bubba. If you drop a pallet and I have my power charged then I either hit you or I break the pallet. No other killer can do this bar lopro Billy. This means if I miss you with my whip it doesn't matter because at worst I get the pallet.
The free detection isn't useless. It let's you know what other survivors are doing and where your at.
Come on mate lol when I say "most killers" I obviously didn't mean Nurse or Spirit. Most killer means not every single one. Trying to compare anyone to Nurse or Spirit is dumb since no one is on their level. Blight and Hag are just below them but even they won't compare to those two.
When I said about the zombies making a difference I did say they needed a slight buff. I've had games where the survivor is nearly touching them but they proceed to walk to a corner lol even if it's rare, getting a free hit or down can be massive. Last night both zombies literally won Nemesis a game vs my swf just because the last gen they guarded till Nemesis could use his Pop and shortly after win the match.
I've faced a lot of good players while playing Nemesis, not really good 4 man swfs but still pretty good. Any short loop that I can hit over there is pretty much nothing they can do. Obviously good survivors will make him look weak but that's the case for most killers. Oni for example is a simple M1 killer till he gets a few hits but when he does he is extremely strong. Oni's early game is worse than Nemesis yet no one is saying he's weak. If we're using your argument of killers need to be effective "entire trials" then Oni must be weak correct?
This killer isn't on the same level as Legion, Trapper or Trickster. He has a good anti-loop power that can destroy at certain loops extremely well. Even tougher loops like shack/jungle gyms should result in a hit with his tentacle if you play correctly. The zombies free detection + potential free hits can change games sometimes.
He's not perfect. He needs a few QoL changes to help him such as getting rid of the sprint Burst after a tentacle hit and fixing dumb zombies AI. When they're done he'll be low A tier definitely.
Lastly apologies for this being super long. Kinda still drunk from last night + I had a lot to say.
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What are you talking about? Nemesis can literally down a survivor on the other side of a pallet whilst nemesis isnt nesr the pallet himself
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So can Huntress.
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Why does every killer need to be A tier? Spirit and Hag are miserable to play against. If every killer is miserable to play against than why would anyone play survivor?
The devs try to create killers that can compete with high level survivors but in doing so make solo queue miserable. A high level coordinated team is far different than your average solo team, we all know this. A killer like Nemesis is good to have because he's strong against solo teams but has enough drawbacks that give you an opportunity to possibly hold him off for a bit of time. Not every team is a high level team.
There are a lot of players that believe that the first hit speed boost is unfair to the killer player but him hitting a survivor on the other side of a downed pallet is fine. I'm not saying Nemesis is perfect as he is now. He does need some minor changes, like the infection. Nemesis hits 3 times and the first infects the survivor but why does it matter if he infects someone or not? The infection does nothing which really doesn't make any sense. I feel like the infection should make zombies go straight for any infected survivors within a certain radius. Zombies are kind of too rng (like everything else in this game) so this would tighten up his gameplay a bit. Of course this is how I see him and how I would make changes to him.
I get both sides here but with some minor changes Nemesis could be both fun to play and play against. I feel like the devs might not have fully worked Nemesis out but he's more or less in a balanced place.
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I will say though a speed boost upon infection makes me wonder why they even bothered adding a short hindered effect to it
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Well I feel like I've mentioned his weaknesses in my message but I'm not going to read every single comment in a very long discussion.My point was clear I thought, its irrational to ask me for such things when it is your job. You've totally missed the point.
I think you misunderstood what I meant when you said about Bubba. If you drop a pallet and I have my power charged then I either hit you or I break the pallet. No other killer can do this bar lopro Billy. This means if I miss you with my whip it doesn't matter because at worst I get the pallet.You just restated the same thing, also its roughly the duration of a normal pallet break so it doesn't matter, you can still get to the next loop.
The free detection isn't useless. It let's you know what other survivors are doing and where your at.If you can't do anything with it, it is, you've just repeated yourself.
When I said about the zombies making a difference I did say they needed a slight buff.Cool
Oni's early game is worse than Nemesis yet no one is saying he's weak. If we're using your argument of killers need to be effective "entire trials" then Oni must be weak correct?Mr.strawman give me a break.
This killer isn't on the same level as Legion, Trapper or Trickster.Cool, I agree, I am just sitting here waiting for you to argue my argument, instead of saying random things that I agree with and strawmanning. I've cut out the fodder in your messages. 56% of this was just bs.
He's not perfect. He needs a few QoL changes to help him such as getting rid of the sprint Burst after a tentacle hit and fixing dumb zombies AI.Cool
When they're done he'll be low A tier definitely.No, he is a weaker pyramid head.
Lastly apologies for this being super long. Kinda still drunk from last night + I had a lot to say.You should be apoligizing for straw manning, ignoring all my points, and stating a bunch of things I never argued vs nor where brought up in my reply to you.
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I feel like I have argued against your points mate.
I've also repeated myself a few times because it feels like you weren't understanding me like in the Bubba part. My point was missing an attack at a loop isn't as punishing because you'll get rid of the pallet.
The only part I should've explained better was the part about zombie detection. You said the detection is "useless if he can't do anything with it" but he can. He doesn't have mobility like a lot of other killers true but knowing where survivors are can influence if you leave a chase to go towards a gen you want to protect. Think of it like the Doctor's illusionary doctors.
Also mate you can't complain about "straw manning" whenever it makes sense for the argument. You said a killer needs to be effective the entire trial and I gave a valid reason why that statement can't be true. This is also funny coming from the guy that when I said about Nemesis getting the first down easier than "most killers" you tried to compare him to the two best killers in the game Nurse and Spirit lol
When it comes to Pyramid head I agree that Nemesis is weaker than him. Doesn't mean though Nemesis can't also be A tier.
We could go on about this forever mate from the sounds of things. If you have any particular points you want me to argue then put them in a bullet point at the end and I'll try to answer them as short as possible.
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I agree with everyone but Hillibilly. Hillibilly is still stronger IF you learned him.
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I feel like I have argued against your points mate.Cool.
I've also repeated myself a few times because it feels like you weren't understanding me like in the Bubba part. My point was missing an attack at a loop isn't as punishing because you'll get rid of the pallet.That is asinine. Its still punishing, you are basically taking near the same time to break the pallet and you can still make it to the next loop.
The only part I should've explained better was the part about zombie detection. You said the detection is "useless if he can't do anything with it" but he can. He doesn't have mobility like a lot of other killers true but knowing where survivors are can influence if you leave a chase to go towards a gen you want to protect. Think of it like the Doctor's illusionary doctors.Can, could, should. The Nemi is not going to be using that info 70% of the time, lets be real. This is grasping at straws.
Also mate you can't complain about "straw manning" whenever it makes sense for the argument.Yes you can, state what I have said next time.
You said a killer needs to be effective the entire trial and I gave a valid reason why that statement can't be true.Yes it does need to be true this is equally a dumb statement, if the killer is weak end game, then they will lose outright, if they are weak mid game, all gens are gunna be popped.
You haven't done anything by stating "
He's like most killers. Bad early game but strong endgame."does not disprove nor prove anything other then there are alot of weak killers in the game.Trapper, Hag, Nemi, and Shape (4/26 killers) are the only killers that have a bad early game. From those killers all but the hag fail. You aren't even correct with the basis of your statement yet alone the point. Even if gave you "most killers" have a early game that is bad, the end game Trapper and Hag doesn't guarantee that they will have a strong late game, the same is said for Shape and Nemi.
This is also funny coming from the guy that when I said about Nemesis getting the first down easier than "most killers" you tried to compare him to the two best killers in the game Nurse and Spirit lolI've never said such things. Nor have I compared him to anything, I gave those killers because those are what most think about. Most of your points have been pathetic, hence why I have blown them off but I suppose I will finally reply to it directly since I am in a good mood.
Nemi is not better then Twins, Billy, Bubba, Blight, Nurse, Wraith, Huntress, Hag, Sprirt, Plague, Oni, Death Slinger, and Executioner. (13 / 27 killers)
I could of gave any of these examples, but all of those killers Nemi pales in comparison. Lets not pretend its a short list of two killers like you dishonestly try to imply, half of the killers at least, and arguably more are stronger then him. The only real thing Nemi consistently has is his Whip, which Pyramid Head does better, with a better base kit, without needing any tiers.
When it comes to Pyramid head I agree that Nemesis is weaker than him. Doesn't mean though Nemesis can't also be A tier.Triangle head is not even A tier by most, so yes it does if we are being objective.
We could go on about this forever mate from the sounds of things. If you have any particular points you want me to argue then put them in a bullet point at the end and I'll try to answer them as short as possible.Everything I have stated.
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Nemesis is just an M1 killer that can sometimes hit through pallets and breaks pallets faster, since his tentacle range is same as his lunge until he gets T3 and survivors gets speed boost from not being injured but infected, he is so weak that only thing you can do is just pray to RNG and zombies do the pressure which you can't. His whip is like the easiest thing you can dodge in this game, and he can't hit through loops because on low walls survivor can crouch and easily evade the hit. He is too RNG and map dependant. If they remove the speed boost from getting infected, he can be good maybe but not like this. He is like the best killer i want to go against right now because everyone tries to hit those whips and cant when i play smart and safe which forces them to m1 or dc lol, but until that time he loses too many times and if zombies are spawned in ######### places, its gg.
Imagine even if you got hit by whip, its a reward for survivor to leave the place without dropping a pallet and rush away to next loop, for what? Risking of getting hit by one of the easiest jukeable skill in the game? kek. If you get infected by a zombie you may still have the boost but since we get a speed boost from just being infected is too op for survivors. I loop him around the shack and if he gets his whip up i just take the hit and run to an another safe loop without dropping the shack pallet at full or at the same health state. What can i want more than this?
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Wrong he can't destroy pallet and hit survivor at the same time. The whip can only hit 1 thing at a time.
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