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The game needs to encourage hooking multiple survivors more
So, a lot of survivors right now are feeling frustrated when they wait forever in the queue, only to spend the whole game on the hook, or with the killer on them 24/7 trying to secure their kill. On the other hand, killers are struggling to apply pressure with four survivors, as currently the game heavily punishes killers for not getting sacrifices.
The game needs to encourage and actively reward players for not tunnelling, by way of not only BP, but in the ranking system. Hooking all 4 survivors should contribute towards pipping, and you could take this even further by rewarding killers for hooking all survivors before 3 generators are completed for example.
This would make playing survivor more pleasant, but also give killers the choice to not have to play in such a scummy way that the meta currently demands.
I’m sure some people will complain about the fact that this will likely lower the kill rate. The thing is though, I think reducing kill rates is worth making the game much more healthy, and less sweaty for BOTH sides. Whenever you killer someone with the system, let alone the whole team, would feel like a much bigger achievement than right now, and puts more focus on the 1v1, rather than 4v1 which can be very overwhelming as killer. This is just an idea though, as I think there needs to be effort put in to make the game less toxic.
Comments
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I have no problem with incentives towards spreading hooks around, but rewarding players for hooking 4 survivors before 3 gens would be kind of horrible when a bad/resource-heavy first chase means that three gens pop as a result of your first hook. Maybe killers could get a bonus reward for hooks being non-consecutive?
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Yeah, it was just an idea. What you mentioned was something else I considered, but it’s not an easy area to address
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I'd be nice if that worked but it won't. Killing someone asap is essential when faced with strong survivor team as it gets impossible to defend few remaining gens vs 4 survivors in the mid-late game.
Nobody is going to care in the end about ranking but about the kills as even if you hook survivors 8 times but they all escape, you feel like you've lost completely. That's why people will always prioritise kills over hooks as it just feel right for killer to kill people, not just hook them.
The only way you can slow down the process of killing (if we exclude people who hard tunnel just cause ) is to slow overall game down for both sides. Some gameplay change that would prevent killers from killing survivors too early and also a change that would stop survivors from finishing too many gens too early. Both is a balancing nightmare so it won't happen.
Personally, I think matchmaking is the main thing to blame and the lack of information solos need to be on the closer level to SWF.
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Killers are tunnelling because of generator times. So many times i am losing 3 gens with 1 hook. So what i have to do with this case? Play dirty or lose game.
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I’m fine with slightly increasing gen times if kindred (other than killer aura reading) becomes base kit, and to compensate ruin and pop would be slightly nerfed. This would help make gen regression less essential for perk slots, while buffing solo survivors.
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Nah, generators will still be problem. Problem is not 80 second, problem is survivors ignoring everything except hook saves and generators. So making generator times 100 second will not fix that. Problem is this is new meta and this is boring and sweaty for everyone.
Game design is old and outdated. I think they have to rework survivor gameplay. But i know this is imposible.
Maybe making base kit DS for survivors and corrupt for killers will fix that, maybe. But this is also imposible because devs are so lazy.
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Yeah, they take years to implement the most basic of features. Took them years to nerf DS and Ruin. Rank rewards promised decades ago, and probably should require hardly any effort. It’s really ridiculous, I wish they only did 3 proper chapters a year, and had one chapter fully dedicated to the health of the game + new features.
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I feel like killers who are already tunneling are not the killers who really care all that much about their rank or how much BP they get. They just want their 4K, otherwise they wouldn't be tunneling...
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Pretty simple, here's a few base and perk changes:
Base Changes
Powered Status Effect: When further than 32 meters from the hook:- 5% Haste Effect, 10% Attack Recovery, 10% Action Speed
Perk Ideas
Pure Evil: When a survivor is unhooked, their repair speed is decreased by 25% for the next 40/50/60 seconds.Death Sentence: When an unhooked survivor is put into the dying state in the next 15 seconds, the savior will become exposed and can be killed by the killer for the next 20/25/30 seconds.
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Agreed. I think a survivors hook time meter should freeze if a killer is within so many meters. So many killer players only care about a 4K and their gaming experience, and then play victim when called out. Hate to see it. Good post.
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Saw a dude on YouTube who was saying he had a 1000 straight “wins”, watched 3 of his games and he proxy camped and tunneled the dude off first hook every game. People that play for 4ks simply do not care about any of the things you stated and will continue to camp and tunnel until there is a reason not to.
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Next you'll want killers to bring snacks and refreshments :^)
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There seems to be a trend of threads with proposals to make the game more enjoyable for survivors.
Weirdly enough, whenever someone proposes making the game more enjoyable for killers, the thread gets shot down by "git gud" comments or someone explaining that they can easily 4k as rank 1 killer without camping, tunneling or gen slowdown perks.
I have to admit, I've not played the game since Friday. So I don't know the current lobby times. But wasn't the general consensus that survivors have instant lobbies since the RE patch?
Did that already change? Or do I miss something?
Anyway, as mentioned above, killers struggle with the current gen speed. That's why they try to tunnel someone out, since that creates the much needed pressure to finally stand a chance.
Increasing the gen times won't solve that. Additional objectives would solve that, but survivors have proven that they hate additional objectives. Since they got Undying nerfed, because doing totems was just to much to ask for and still is, as the NOED nerf thread on page 1 proves.
Resuming: killers don't have time for 12 hook matches, because gens are irresistible for survivors. Attempts to draw survivors attention towards other things failed, because of the stubbornness of survivors. Which results in unpleasant matches for everyone.
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Why don't they just revert the stupid pipping nerf to killers. They made it harder to pip, then reverted for survivors, and now red ranks are full of fking survivor potatoes.
But they kept it on Killers. Like why. Nothing worse then playing fair only to get some #########, entity displeased BS.
Killers can have more fun, and sweat less if they weren't told at the end game screen that they did badly.
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Yeah it was the case, i main killer but i play ocasionnaly with friends on survivor. Survivor lobby got back to the point where they were before RE chapter. So no more killer.
The meta being hold shift + w and bring prove thyself everygame isn't helping. Gens fly nowadays, more than ever.
I find myself tunneling more and more to be able to get a 4 k. Playing against good survivor forces you to do that or you might as well be afk.
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that system was tried and abused
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It’s not just about making it better for survivors, the game would be a lot more fun for killers if they didn’t have to worry about killing survivors as much
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I'm a Killer Main, I don't camp or tunnel because I don't find it fun to do or be the target of it so I just don't do it. Unless someone is toxic to me, then I'll camp and tunnel them because they started it. (Childish of me, I know. I don't care.)
Like others have said people won't care about their rank. What people care about is feeling that they've "won". For most Killer players that means a 4k, or a 3k and "giving" Hatch to the last person. The best way to get a 4k is to remove one Survivor early, best way of doing that is hard tunneling them out of the game. Until you make it so Killers either CAN'T do that or don't NEED to do that then no matter what else is changed it won't matter.
Making it so people can't be consecutively hooked is one way to make it so they CAN'T do that. It is a decent idea, would promote slugging a bit more and make DS need a change but could be done.
On the not NEEDING to do it side I'd like to see Survivors need another objective. I don't want gens to take longer per se or there needing to be six gens instead of five. I want something like needing to find a part of the gen before being able to repair it at all, with there being something like twelve or fourteen parts scattered about the map and when you interact with a gen that can't be repaired yet you see the Aura of the closest three or four parts. Brand New Part could count for this and instead of doing up-to 25% only do 20%, with that other 5 coming into play if not used as a 'found part'. Or maybe needing to go an hit one of four switches to apply the power to the Exit Gates once the gens are finished, the Aura of these switches being shown to everyone once the gens are done. Just SOMETHING that slows the game down just a little more without it being oppressive to the Survivors.
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I'm down
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Points and rank are a good first step, but there also needs to be a substantial in game benefit to help with the actual match. That or a fundamental rework of the hook/death system.
Example: no more 3 hook = dead, survivor team in total has 8-10 hooks , once the killer get that amount everyone gets sacrificed via EGC entity if not on hook and normal animation if on hook, remove hook timers.
Killers are encouraged to go after other survivors and survivor get camped less and get to play the game more. Reducing hook amount to adjust for the fact there will always be 4 survivors.
But I heavily doubt that ever happening at all considering we cant even get a communication wheel in game to help with solos or just a functioning game.
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The problem with a "Global Hook Pool" is it would just encourage tunneling of the weakest link. One Survivor can't loop you at all? Only go for them if they're off hook. And if their teammates wise up and just leave them on hook with no hook timer? Then that person isn't getting to play the game AND can't get better at looping so it doesn't happen next time AND the team is down a member so it'll be that much easier to snowball.
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I feel like people just need to learn to share hooks more with their teammates. There's too many instances that I see in matches where survivors will just sit on gens all match and will never move off them even when half their team are sitting on their death hooks while themselves haven't been hooked once. If your teammates are seriously struggling against the killer then it's usually a good idea to throw yourself on the hook and give them time to live a little bit longer. It is a team game after all so you're expected to throw yourself into the lion's mouth every now and then for the sake of your teammates unless you just play for hatch every match or something.
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and the current system doesn't? In any hook system tunneling the weakest link will probably be a problem, this one at least mitigates it imo. Changing it to a shared pool wouldn't change much. But if the killer stick around to try and tunnel them the gens just get done. The current hook timer encourages tunneling more as they team has to come for them eventually or they just die, either way the killer profits just for sticking around.
The killer is encouraged to leave to get other hooks to actually progress rather than stand around for unlimited time. The only way they get tunneled is if the survivors pull off in front of the killer, which is a player problem. Yeah jerks will still tunnel but you cant really do anything about that.
The goal changes from "kill this person" to "get more hooks", thats a significant change I think.
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Right now the main problem with camping is lack of knowledge on the Survivor side, both about what is going on in the game as well as the proper counter to the action. When not in a SWF and without Kindred Survivors have no way of knowing the Killer is camping, so they will come in for the save. Even Kindred only helps a little if the Killer is running Insidious, because if you are not looking in that direction when the hook happens you'll miss their Aura disappearing without them walking away. SWF can just tell everyone to not bother because the Killer is camping.
The way you counter a camper is just do gens. Three Survivors without toolboxes or Prove Thyself can easily do four gens by the time that person on hook dies. Yes, it sucks for everyone involved and is not fun but anything else would just reward the camper for their crappy gameplay. New people don't understand this, so of course they are going to try and save and hover around the hook while the Killer stands there. Right now the best thing is just spreading the knowledge to just do gens against a camper. At most they'll get two kills if you don't feed them. And depending on the Killer, Survivor Perks and if you do have toolboxes and slash or Prove Thyself you can get all five gens AND save the camped person before they die. I've seen it happen as Survivor, when we all knew to just do gens and for the person on the hook to make the Struggle Phrase last as long as possible.
I agree that something needs to be done about camping and tunneling, but I don't think a communal hook pool is a good idea. But sadly I don't have any ideas of my own to offer. that I haven't already elsewhere. (Reverse Camaraderie: If there is no other Survivor within 16 metres of the hooked Survivor but the Killer IS within that distance the hook timer is paused. This at least stops face camping but doesn't do much for proxy camping. And it prevents the "loop the Killer around the hooked person" thing that was done in the past when being near the person on hook AT ALL stopped the timer AND prevents the "I'm not chasseing you if I walk backwards" loophole that tying it to being in chase would have.)
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Problem is, we already had different Victory conditions for the killer: the Victory Cube.
Which basically required the killer to get 2 kills and 1 hook in order to pip and that's what killers did. They hard camped the first survivor they found and repeated this with the second survivor. Since getting, for example 8 hooks but no kill, ended in a black pip.
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That was quick. I thought that the new stream of RE fans would increase our playerbase. But they probably already left because of the horrible first expression they got.
Shame.
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So far, it feels really damned if you do, damned if you don't for me as a killer. If you focus on winning "why are you ruining the game for other people?" You play purposely "fair" and they just 4 man escape, spin you because console, teabag, spam flashlights. Its like... I kind of have more fun when I get one kill at the end.
Getting the consolation kill is a nightmare against swf without NOED. I honestly thought Overwatch was the most toxic game I played and wow... They were kind of not exaggerating. It can get a lot worse.
But you know, I don't take it too seriously. I am still having a great time and will probably stick with it.
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Just play as you want and ignore the comments after the match. Because someone will always leave a salty message. Doesn't matter if they died after maxing out points or if they escaped and barely got any points. There's always a "reason" to complain about how the killer played.
So the best thing you can do is ignore it.
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I can tell you that with most killer characters in the red ranks it is not possible to win or apply any real pressure without at times proxy camping/slugging/tunneling. Its just not. The game moves to fast. You can say im a bad killer all you want but its not just me, youll see killers i would consider better than me like ohtz doing the same. This is the game. If you limit killers ability to do thus WITHOUT somehow slowing the game down pretty signigicantly, it will kill thus game because NOBODY will be playing killer. It was built from the ground up this way, its in every facet of how they build the maps to how they balanced the perks. Id love to be able to go on linger chases with each and every survivor in turn then we can all hold hands and eat lollipops at the end and everyones a winner. This isnt that game, never will be. Bbq (the perk every killer runs that every survivor bitches about and wants nerfed) already encourages hooking different survivors and encourages leaving the hook.
You need to get over it, OR come up with viable solutions to slow the game down 🤷♂️
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This wouldnt help a thing. Want to bet i can hook that claud 12 times before you can finish gens? 😂 theres a reason shes being tunneled. Shes really bad in chase and any idiot can hold m1 on a gen. What you would end up with here is 2 survivors who are yiur worst runners eating up all your hook states very quickly, or being slugged. Dead is dead. If all four of you are slugged then i still win with 4 hooks.
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Punishing tunneling via pips won't actually do anything to stop it and they'll just terrorize the low ranks instead, who probably don't have DS/BT unlocked or know how to deal with it. Much like how face camping is more prevalent in the lower ranks because the emblem system punishes it (in my experience).
Personally I'd implement a mechanic where if someone is rehooked consecutively within a time frame, their hook timer resumes where it left off instead of jumping to the next state. And in return, I'd give killers Corrupt Intervention base kit and clean up the spawns so that survivors don't spawn all spread out.
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Yeah I agree with all that and that idea doesn't sound half bad on paper. 16 meters might be a little small though, I'd probably bump it up to 24 at least, but that can be fine tuned with testing and seeing how it plays out.
Although with no other changes this would just be punishing and nerfing killers, which is not something we need. The killer side needs to get something in return if you're going to weaken one of their tools while they're already generally the weaker role.
Something not only to push them in that direction, but to actually help them do so. That's why I proposed reducing the overall hook amount to compensate (not saying that's the only solution).
As for survivor communication issue, if we could get a simple communication wheel that would help I believe.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
The Claud cost you the game now as well. If the Claud dies at 5 gens you're most likely losing. You can't fix bad teammates. This would just work against camping a bit more and give the killer more of a reason to not stick around.
She's getting camped? Just don't save her. Killers who want to preform better will leave the hook.
The main point was to shift the priority from "get kills" to "get hooks" and incentivizing killers to leave the hook in favor of starting the next one. Why do they stick around and tunnel? It gets them the fastest progress to a kill. Take that away and then why stick around the Claud not chasing anyone for your next hook if it makes you no progress? You wouldn't.
Now if the survivors make a dumb play and unhook right in front of the killer yeah you'll get those hooks real quick, but that's on them for making a bad play.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
As long as the meta stays on "slapping these gens quickly and efficiently" you cant ask this from killers as they dont have the time for it
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Noooooo problem, here's how you fix it.... since dev's only seem to know how to "fix" problems via perks and not gameplay changes, give us a Blood Echo style perk that pops all gens for ~10% on hook.... then ~10M bp a piece so we can get it on every killer and done, people will now go for hooks!
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I love it. Op talks about REWARDING healthy gameplay on both sides and you are straight back to PUNISHING everything. You will never learn or get off that punishing trip, hm?
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Yeah I agree, there are a lot of tunneling red rank killers out there unfortunately. we need more perks like bbq
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Hex: Devour Hope
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An easy fix would be to introduce perks and killers whose powers strengthen the more variety of hooks are done, whilst survivors all are alive, theb just make it an extremely powerful endgame perk.
But reward works best than punishment. The problem is some people won't change, no matter what you give them, so the issue won't die out, but it can be reduced if there are incentives to do so.
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The salt is already there so why not
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I mentioned this before going to say it again. Give killer an og green mori upon hooking 4 unique survivours. Give survivors a bosted heal and repair skill dependant on the number of dead survivors.
Were two fold hurting tunneling. We have an incentive to spread out hooks. Pushing to tunnel out a survivor will boost the repair/heal speed of other survivours. Rather then implement this immeidiatly run an experiment or an alternative game mode to test it. This allpws fir adjusting the requirements to earn mori of increase/decrease the increased repair/heal speeds.
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I see the thinking behind this idea, but I already see some problems. 4 hooks for 1 death is still worse than 3 hooks for 1 death, especially if that survivor is injured since you already hooked them. So tunneling would most likely still be a better option.
Repair speeds are also already too fast with the current game environment, so speeding them up in any way is not something we should really be looking at imo unless we're going to also speed up the killer objective significantly, and probably relatively more than the gen increase. As stated, this purposed method is still slower than current tunneling.
Even reducing the requirement to 3 hooks would still leave the benefit of tunneling that the survivor might still be injured cutting out half the chase as well as not having to look as hard for said survivor.
I don't think this idea can really work with mori's being the tuning valve in a healthy way.
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I think Death Sentence would encourage proxy camping. Why go far away when you can down the person who was just unhooked and then expose/mori the unhooker. Itll literally take a person out of the game for being altruistic.
Make your choice, Hex: DH both encourage not camping in order to get use of perks. I think a powerful perk that could discourage camping would have to be something like these perks where the benefit of not camping outweighs the kill.
Perk Idea:
Entity's Revenge
If a survivor is unhooked and killer is more than 70/65/60m away, the unhooker will be automatically sacrificed to the killer in 4 minutes.
This would be a huge initiative to avoid early game camping, but it gives survivors time to unhook safely and avoid being tunneled. 4.6m/s killer would need to travel 14s for it activate. If survivors unhook quickly then it won't work. Killers have to learn to count BT, so having survivors do the same isn't crazy.
Even if it was down to EGC it wouldn't make a difference as BT and exit gates will let most last minute escapes happen. But this perk would shine when 1-2 gens remain, which is typically when the first sacrifice normally happens (it does happen earlier, but imo 3 gens pop really quickly)
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Wont do anything
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