What's your opinion on keys?
I hear a lot of people, mostly YouTubers like Otzdarva and Tru3ta1ent, talk about how keys ruin the game or how much of a problem they are. I find this odd, because I've actually never had an issue whatsoever with keys, and this is coming from someone who plays both survivor and killer.
Let me go over real quick why I don't see them as an issue. First off, it's not like the key can be used right at the start of the game, ending it too early. A certain amount of people have to be dead, and a certain amount of gens have to be done, for the hatch to spawn. And usually, taking the hatch out is the only option for the players.
Here's a list of situations where keys are used;
- Keys are often used in situations where there's only 1 survivor left and the hatch has been closed by the killer, the survivor uses the key to re-open the hatch and escape, as it's very difficult to escape through the gates after the hatch is closed. The killer can easily patrol the 2 gates and find you if you try to open one. Saying this is a problem is just being selfish because they "stole your 4k."
- Something else that often happens is there will be 2 gens left and 2 survivors remaining. Do you really expect 2 survivors to get 2 gens on and escape through the gates? No. The answer is no. They are therefore left with the only option of taking the hatch. I don't see this as a problem because you already killed 2 people and this is the remaining 2 survivors' only option to escape.
- Another instance is there's 1 gen left and 3 survivors remaining. Sometimes they will take the hatch in this situation, but truth be told, they could easily get the last gen on and then take the gates out, so I don't see a big difference here whether a key is used or not. Unless of course, they are 3 gen'd (last 3 gens are very close together and easy to patrol) so in this situation, the hatch is their only option to escape.
- Finally, the most uncommon use of keys, from my experience anyway, all gens have been powered and all survivors are still alive, someone will use a key to get out. This is uncommon because the survivors will usually rather take the gate and save their key in this situation. This isn't a problem to me either because, the gates are literally powered, the killer is probably already screwed in this situation anyway unless maybe they have NOED. I don't see the problem here either.
I really don't see an issue with keys because they're usually a survivors only option to escape. Without them, they are inevitably gonna be screwed in some situations. I don't think keys need any changes whatsoever. But what do you think? If you think keys are a problem, I'll happily listen to your reasoning behind it.
Comments
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I dislike the hatch in general. It promotes selfish play when you are survivor and it screws the killers.
The only good thing is that if the survivors did bad, escaping doesn't make them pip.
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Perhaps the hatch itself rather than keys could use some kind of rework.
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Keys just end a game early and its just boring
They also punish the killer for doing well and sacrificing survivors, which spawns hatch for the survivors to just jump into hatch right in front of your face.
In this situation, there is nothing the killer can do, it just happens right before their eyes. Is that fun and balanced for you?
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I don't like that the key can be found on the bloodweb. whenever a survivor brings a key, they're usually the main target for the killer, otherwise at least one survivor will escape through the hatch with them. The killer cannot know if the key is broken or not. In their perspective this key is an exit key. What if the survivor only wants to receive information with that broken key? they will die either way.
Also, survivors who hide all match to find the hatch. i call it easy escape.
Finding a key in the chest is luck and seems to be fair to both sides, it's RNG after all.
I would be happy if it would be possible to find the keys only in chests.
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1 and 4 are absolutely fair use of keys, and need to remain.
2 and 3 however are not. Yes, 2 survivors can totally do gens. If gens are still able to be repaired, you can repair them. I've escaped in games where there's only two of us remaining, there was one game against Clown in Lerys where two survivors DCed on hook at 4 gens and we still both managed to escape. If you have 2 survivors, one can distract the killer while the other does gens, swapping when necessary.
The killer is patrolling those gens, that's the killers objective, so to then vanish completely and have the match end through means that the killer has no way of stopping, is just broken. The survivors still have objectives to do, you shouldn't get to bypass them entirely. At the very least, you shouldn't get the bonus BP for escaping in those situations, it shouldn't count as an escape, it's a forfeit.
Also in those situations, survivors often use keys to screw over other survivors. I've been hooked on first hook state while the other three survivors vanished down a hole and ended the game.
Ideally, the hatch should only spawn:
- When there's one survivor remaining.
- When all generators are repaired.
A single remaining survivor needs an out, because there's only 2 gates for the killer to patrol. And when all the gens are done the survivors have completed 95% of their objective, and deserve a fair shot at an escape.
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Keys cut off the end of the game and hand a default "win" to the survivors who used the hatch or subsequently opened the door. They punish killers for doing well and reward survivors for giving up or simply for failure. The most common use I see is a quick 3-gen, someone becomes the sacrificial lamb, and it's 3 people out the hatch. I've participated myself many times, most recently tonight when I found a key and showed my teammates.
Edit: also, if the hatch even comes into play then yes, the killer is getting robbed. They earned their win, the survivors didn't earn any escapes. Hatch and hatch mechanics are supposed to be a last, slim chance of escape so that survivors don't completely give up once the team has been beaten.
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Either;
Keys should be only eligible to use once the holder has earned X amount of points during a game (earned it)
Keys require 2 seconds to open and require atleast 1 skill check (unlocked the hatch and still had time to spare)
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Same as it was in the other 50 threads about keys.
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keys are overrated and overhyped by community and streamers. they are not TOO common to be a really big problem. I play a lot of killer (mainly Nurse) and I see keys in 1/30 games I'm playing. and usually it's probably cause of some hatch challenge or something. mori was highly unfun and simply not fair thing. while keys are unfair to some degree, they are not fully anti-fun at least for me. people just exaggerated this topic to some insane degree
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I very very strongly dislike keys.
Why?
Because usually my playstyles involve controlling and wearing down the Survivor team as opposed to snowballing like crazy. I almost never win quickly and almost never win with lots of gens left to go. That means that more often than not, my killer games do in fact get to the point where a key could be used. Also it means I am probably very very well on my way to winning if one does get used. Also, I happen to very much enjoy end game where things get very scrappy when the Survivors are trying to rescue their last person and the Killer is camping because the guy on hook is literally the only objective left on the map. Keys have a tendency to bypass that phase of the game.
Essentially, Keys punish killers for playing nice. Since I generally try to avoid playing like a jerk, I hate keys.
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You make a point with it punishing the killer, so I wouldn't necessarily argue against some change for that. However, the hatch in some situations is the survivors ONLY option to escape. Without it, it's inevitable death. Getting 3 gen'd is a great example of that.
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Pretty much agree with all this, hatch spawning only when either 1 survivor is left or all gens are done would solve the major issues tied to keys
The only other things that I would add to that change would be:
- Keys require at least 1 charge to open the hatch (it's plain stupid that you can open hatch even with a completely depleted key)
- Opening the hatch has a small animation (something small, like 1.5 seconds)
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"I really dont see an issue with keys as theyre usually the survivors only means of escape."
Thats PRECISELY the issue.
Let me explain. The first 3 to 4 gens are usually pretty easy to get. As those gens get done the maps get smaller and harder on the survivors. Thats how its supposed to work. So as a killer if youre doing your job right youre getting rid of pallets and hooking people in the area you want to protect. Goid survivors know this and youll have to fight them over those gens. Youll spend the whole match working your ass off to get this situation at the end and then the game decides, through zero skill at all, that you just lose because key.
And it DOES end the game early. The hardest gen to get done is that last one. In the long games you play its fighting over that last gen. The first 4 are usually gone with in 5 mins, that last one will a lot of times take up the bulk if the match.
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As a solo survivor, keys have given killers more kills than survivors get escapes. I have had many teammates stop playing, sometimes more than one, with just one gen to go, just so they can get hatch. If they had been playing, all of us would have had a chance at escaping. I've honestly only ever had four games where a key has helped me in about 1500 hours in the game as a solo survivor. I wish they were removed, or you could only loot them and not plan on quitting before you even start.
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hate them
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My issue with Key as a Killer is not that survivors can escape but it is the "counterplay" I have.
On general a Key get its play when 3 generators are done and 2 people are remaining or when 4 are done and 3 people are remaining. In both scenarios I as a Killer have the upper hand.
However a Key now forces me to search and camp the hatch. This is the only real counterplay that I get: Camp a god damn hatch while sometimes looking at generators. This is as boring as watching paint dry. If keys would offer me a more interactive form of counterplay then I would be okay with 2 or 3 people escaping through a hatch. No problem, I take it, I just want some good moments.
From the games design it is also a problem: The first 2-3 generators fly by. They are easy and get done pretty quick as everything is spread out, all pallets are up and survivors have everything at their disposal. Now when the time comes where the Killer can shine (think about Pig, Trapper, Ghostface, Myers and other low-no mobility killers), the survivors can use a key. They can now skip the part where their rescources become less and less and the game gets more tense. This robbs the Killer off their momentum hard without the survivors having to do much for it. They just need to find a hatch and can even make an offering for that hatches spawn.
Edgars_Raven has already told the same story, but I wanted to tell it again to support the point.
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Can 2 survivors do the rest of the gens? Against an inexperienced killer, sure. But it takes like 80s to complete one gen. imagine if there were 2 gens left, that means a killer has to patrol 4 generators. On most maps the killer will be able to complete a full patrol in around 30s.
If you rely on your teammate being chased, they’d have to hold a 80s+ chase, which at that point in the game most of the good pallets will be most likely exhausted.
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I've never once had an issue with keys. Literally never. If survivors escape because they used a key, then congrats, it's probably an exciting thing
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When I was playing survivor one thing I learned is I could jsut have the hatch offering spawn at the killer shack and then just hold W in the basement so crows never trigger and just wait for ######### hatch to spawn.
Then I just wait for my teammates to die to spawn hatch and then open it with a key.
This is so boring and I can't believe this is actual gameplay as intended to open the hatch. I got 4 survivor adepts doing this. in 1 day
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So you're saying they shouldn't have any means to escape in those situations? You're kinda selfish.
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Just had it happen again. One person tunneled out, one gen left, three people alive. I was working on the last gen, stopped to make the save, got chased, and my two teammates left with a key instead of finishing. Keys literally help killers. He got a free kill he wouldn't have had if my teammates didn't decide ahead of time to ######### me over.
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In a situation like that, either the killer played well, or the survivors played badly, and there should be no need for both survivors to be able to escape "for free" in that scenario
If they manage to complete the last 2 gens, good for them, they earned it
Another thing to consider is that in the same situation (2 survivors with 2 gens left) if there is no key in play what usually happen is that one survivor finds the hatch and starts hiding, waiting for the other survivor to be found and killed, which honestly is a bit bullshit, and having the hatch spawning only at 5 gens done would solve that as well
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It even sucks as a survivor because my teammates will have the key find the hatch and then escape through it. Yeah you see those 2 guys who haven't been hooked once I'm going to lead them to the hatch that one guy dead on hook. NAH
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So basically whenever survivors fail to do their main objective and are destined to die, they get out for free, bypassing their objectives as that's the only chance they have to escape and you consider that fine.
Cool, let's bring back old ebony mories that activate even on survivors who were never hooked before that can be used only when the amount of finished gens is the same as amount of living survivors or more. Basically reverse keys for killers.
That way, killer can only kill survivors late game (or when he could easily finish the last few) when survivors are about to win and already played most of the match like when 4 survivors finish 4 gens and they're all still alive so killer's only chance to win is instantly mori everyone, survivors wanting to escape there are only greedy for the escape. It's the same as killer beiing in situation where there's 3 survivors alive with 1 gen and he's finally gained pressure but they just leave with a key.
Sound fun right. Because that's exactly the same design keys have right now.
Just freaking rework the hatch to appear only when all gens are finished or when there's only 1 survivor alive and everyone would be happy. Keys wouldn't be so dumb anymore but still have some uses, basically as good as rewokred mories.
There ideas that keys are fine are really getting annoying, THEY'RE NOT, they're badly designed just like mories were, stop with the double standarts and defending obviously unhealthy item.
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I think they need to go, no matter how you look at them.
From the Killer's perspective:
- They force the trial to end early, obviously.
- More importantly, we all can agree that in an ideal scenario, the Killer should hook as much as possible, correct? Tunneling is bad, everyone agrees on that. The thing is, no matter how good you are, no matter how many Hex: Ruins you are sitting on, choosing to go for 12 hook games means you are forced to sacrifice generators, that's how it is. The more generators done, the sooner the hatch spawns. So in a really simplified way, keys punish the Killer for playing the way the Survivors want them to play.
From the Survivor's perspective:
- They promote selfishness, simple as.
- I am still repressing all of those times I've been matched with a premade that just hatch escaped, leaving one or two of us to just straight up die.
I just don't see the reason for them, given the math behind the current hatch spawn. If the it was adjusted, meaning heavily nerfed, then yeah. Sure. Keys wouldn't be THAT bad. But as of right now, they're ridiculous.
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They are definitely unbalanced but I don’t take this game seriously enough to care
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i hate them.
i hate being the Killer in a key lobby because it forces me to play like an a-hole; because i feel punished for doing well and because the keys are usually played together with a hatch spawn offering and an SWF whose only goal is to hump gens so the hatch spawns ASAP.
i hate being a Survivor in a solo game with a key user, because in 9 out of 10 cases they use the key right in the Killers face, meaning they get to close the hatch and start the EGCs global death timer for all of us others who got left behind (and usually get killed because of it).
the only time i dont hate them is when i am the one with the key. but even then i acknowledge how broken / BS they are.
also, i dont particulary mind it when the last person makes their escape with it. at that point the trial is over anyway either with a clear victory (3 kills) or a clear defeat (exits open & survivors escaped) on my end.
i think a good way to nerf keys was to rework the hatch spawn requirement.
for example, why not make it so the hatch only appears when all 5 generators have been repaired / when only one person is still alive? that way keys can still be used as a new escape option, they would still be usefull when the killer has good controll over the gates and they would no longer cut the trial short.
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Tunneling is also boring, and keys can make that unattractive.
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Big facts. Keys might end the game early for the killer, but tunneling ends the game early for whoever you're tunneling.
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Moris also were not too common.
Doesnt mean its not a problem.
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That why i hate key.
2 gen get done at the strmart of the match its fine survivor spawn on them i kill 2 survivor but they could do 1 other gen now 2 survivor remain with 2 gen but they have a key they find hatch and escape just like that you lost the game even the game say you lost the game they give you a sweet entity displease.
And that is the reason why key are unfair and broken
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THIS
Its pure honesty. Thanks
Others please take notes
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You are aware that 2kills 2 escapes is the metric devs search out for balance, so you just discribed a balanced match (in the devs pov)
One could argue if thats the goal, better results actually come either from bad matchmaking, pairing you with less skilled survivors, or killers being op.
But since we all are aware how ....how shall i put it...versed the devs are in game balance and matchmaking design ......nah, i leave it open.
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I could accept that metric if the survivor escape by the gate and the killer got between 8 and 10 hook but in any other scenario this is the perfect example of the survivor dominating the killer
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if I may be honest I actually have no problems with them as killer but I can definitely agree that they are unbalanced to a extent
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Because they can end the game early. Ruining the work made by a killer by allowing the possibility for multiple survivors to escape who otherwise shouldn't have.
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Tunneling a key user doesn't work as someone else can just take the key. Unless the key user brought a white ward or weaved ring addon.
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Tunneling also ends the game early for that survivor. Yet, I don't see anyone complaining about that. I can't get why a game ending early is a problem.
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Again an mechanic hyped up by streamer just like certain streamer (no name) started "press e for win" war with dead hard by claiming it takes zero skill and that it needs to be nerfed funny how he didn't point out "press m1 for win" aka pop goes weasel that gives u huge advantage by just presing m1 (writing it in his words because he said dead hard gives u not deserved advantage) so does pop also next thing they overhyped is holding w for running and not couple hours/day later I see few forum threads of holding w being broken in my opinion ppl listen too much to streamers and not using own voice or brain keys are problem tho in current state I'll admit that because I'm not so entitled and I want change as well for it but the key drama we have for years is absurd just because random streamer represented it as huge issue...
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Short games aren't enjoyable. Tunneling and Gen rushing (since they act the same) have in game counters like perks or certain maps yet there's nothing you can do to deny a hatch escape via key. Yes, they're uncommon I know, but old OoO was uncommon yet no one said it was okay. And the same is with keys.
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Keys are really dumb. Using it for the Add-Ons are fine IMO, but to use it for an early escape that you shouldn't get for one or multiple survivors are just disgusting. I have been getting screwed over by key many times. And I'm a Survivor Main.
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Keys don't help the killer at all. Nor do keys help the team. It only benefits the user, maybe others IF they're lucky
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I will agree that there's nothing a killer can do about keys. I honestly preferred the old Franklin's Demise because it was the only way to counter keys. Now, Franklin's does not counter keys as a key with no charges can still open the hatch.
Perhaps some change could be made to give the killer a way to stop them from using it, or make keys require more effort to use. But I don't at all think that it should be you cannot use one unless all gens are on, or you're the last one left.
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Yeah, keys need more effort in using them since all they require is the push of a button. Not exciting. The devs work too slow and don't share enough information without the game crashing.
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First don’t listen to those two. They play the game 6-8 hours a day for money. Asking devs to build a game around them would destroy the casual player base. One in particular is especially full of it.
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Keys absolutely give killers free kills they wouldn't get otherwise. Not every time, but sometimes they absolutely do help killers.
There was one gen to go with three people alive. I got a gen more than halfway done before making a save and being chased for well over a minute. One of my teammates had Prove Thyself. They absolutely would have finished that gen if they tried. They left without even trying after brining a pink key into the game, and I died on my first hook.
I cannot tell you how many games I've had 1-2 people leave and give bad killers free kills they wouldn't have had otherwise. I realize that might hurt the ego of some killers but it's true. Solo survivors are regularly screwed over by people brining in keys.
I have been screwed over far more times than I've ever been helped by keys.
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As a killer main I find 🔑 the most annoying thing in the game. Do I use them when I play survivor. Damn right I do 😄😂.
I do enjoy targeting a key user though. Makes it a fun cat and mouse game.
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The problem in solo queue is that there are lots of hook suicides, dc´s, and tunneling killer that all derail the game anyway, and it happens easily every second game since the ds nerf. Thats why i like my keys as a solo survivor. I have no doubt they will get nerfed, but i think i might just return to play swf at that point, because they dont have suicides and dcs, and can actually handle tunneling killers.
But i doubt killers will enjoy the game more once that happens, if more solo players view it the way i do.
Edit: dont get me wrong, i agree that keys are kind of busted (even if they are a complete different level than old mori), but solo queue has a lot of issues that are not adressed, because swf and solo queue are not seperated from each other, and a balance change for one is a change for the other, too.
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I think they are balanced
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There annoying, but the only time I've seen them used is when I already lost , so that's that I guess
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