When are the devs gonna get rid of NOED?

Then the killer kills 2 and gets a 3rd while in chase with NOED because there is no time to do it all. Probably a 4th if he's/she's fast.

Next time, before you make any kind of remark, just -READ. MY. POST.-

No, giving it a time limit won't fix it. But making it dependent on the amount of totems left as opposed to this 'all or nothing' thing WOULD be an improvement. Currently, clearing 4 out of 5 does NOTHING to counter NOED. This is why doing bones is such a craptastic argument against NOED: You're not going to do all five solo without screwing over your team, and you're not going to be able to coordinate a clean 5-totem clear in solo play. This means that any individual effort you put in to get the 5-totem cleanse NOED block is far, FAR more likely to set your team back and STILL not stop NOED.

So does it not still retain its full function when you cleanse 4 out of 5 totems? Does it not cost a ton of time to get all five totems done? Does it not waste your time tremendously if you do all five and the killer -doesn't- have NOED?

I keep explaining in what ways it is disadvantageous to do bones against NOED and you just refuse to argue against any of that in lieu of just going 'dumb survivors just want ez escape, don't want to do bones!'

I RAN your strategy. Detective's Hunch, dropping everything to get totems done and guess what? I blocked NOED -once-. In ALL other cases, either I couldn't clear all five totems which meant NOED fired anyway and I just wasted my team's time, or the killer didn't have NOED and I just wasted my team's time.

Yes, it -can- be deactivated. But that doesn't mean that that is an effective or tenable strategy.

Sure, if you want to make the game into rochambeau. But we also need to take BT against camping, DS against tunnelling, UB against slugging, IW against Spirit, DH against Nurse and Spine Chill against stealth killers. So where exactly do you want us to fit DetHunch or SG?

Oh yes, making it baseline is a real harsh nerf. And getting two-and-a-half extra minutes to track and kill survivors is a really raw deal, huh?

At least I'm trying to think of a solution instead of just bull-headedly repeating the same tired old trope that I already explained doesn't work.

Doing. Bones. Isn't. NOED's. Counter.

That once-in-a-blue-moon NOED block does not outweigh the thousands of times survivors cleanse fewer than 5 and get punished hard for it.

And you call -me- whiny?

Also, I am literally saying NOED would be better designed if it was baseline and you somehow misinterpret it so thoroughly that you caricature it as 'please change NOED so we never have to worry'. Are you drunk?

Survivors have enough trouble looking for just Ruin lol.

noed should be haunted grounds for end game, that's it. A total of 30 seconds tops for endgame. (honestly i skipped most of the discussion as tldr, but this is my belief.) kthnx. I'm free btw, feel free to keep this idea papow

Again, you are failing to comprehend.

YES, NOED wasting time without pay-out is a flaw. Because THAT is what incentivises people NOT to do totems. If you clear 4 out of 5 and get nothing for it, then you effectively get punished for doing those 4! If you clear 5 out of 5 and the killer doesn't run NOED, then you effectively get punished for doing those 5!

In the vast majority of cases, probably over 90% of cases, you get punished for doing totems, not rewarded.

This is why I -stopped- doing totems except to charge Inner Strength: It is a way better tactical option to not bother with totems, in -all- situations. The ONLY time you might want to do a totem is if it is in a difficult to memorise/difficult to cleanse position, and you know the locations of other totems.

So unless your teammates are doing their part, you doing totems could very well just end up hampering you, really badly.

This is your problem: You are running this mindset entirely in a realm of theory. In practicality, this is not a tenable or effective strategy.

You are -legitimately- not reading my posts.

I tried to do this. I tried to get all five done, with DetHunch and Inner Strength in my build to help facilitate it, and it just doesn't work. It is just not an effective strategy. In all the matches I ran that, I had one NOED blocked, and that was against a killer bad enough to stretch the game out for that badly.

I have countered NOED more than that though, but in all other cases, I -didn't- do totems and got rewarded for it by finding NOED after it had gone live, which was possible because I -didn't- cleanse the totems I found.

I don't have an issue with the idea of survivors having to do totems. I wouldn't mind if NOED forced me to do that.

I am demonstrating to you that NOED does the exact opposite of what you say it does.

You do not counter NOED by doing bones. That is not my opinion, that is the objective strategic fact.

You literally can do 0 gens and escape by hatch.

WITHOUT the use of perks, items or offerings.

Your argument was pure survivor hypocrisy.

Incorrect. Survs would still do totems for Ruin (assuming the Killer has gen pressure) and for Devour Hope. NOED doesn't need to be removed, but lbr about the impact it has on a match.

Don't most Killers also want the match over quick? The more time survs have, the more gens they can get done. DBD is all about time. If you don't get at least 2-3 gens done before the first hook, survs are going to have hard time. If the Killer doesn't do the same, they're going to have a hard time.

Totems, and doing them, take survs away from doing the objective that let's them WIN for something that might not even be in play. Hunting totems to cleanse them might very well kill a solo team. Not because they did anything wrong, but because they extended the match.

Isn't that same as old DS? Killers had to fear it because it kept them doing their primary objective?

Regardless of the fact that DS is a bad 'anti-tunnel' perk, my point was that old DS gave an exceeding amount of value for what it was: a one time use perk that could be avoided - AT HIGH COST - for the Killer. Which is the same as NOED. Sure, survs can avoid it, but it has a tremendous cost to avoid.

I'd almost agree with you except the Killer can force the decision by opening the exit gates. And the very nature of NOED let's the Killer know almost exactly where to find survs. They're going for the exit gates. Of course they are. They finished their true secondary objective - the first being to escape.

i guess the closest I can equate it to is if surv had a perk that required the Killer to kick all thrown pallets on a map before they could down a surv in end game. (Not exact, but the closest I can come to at the moment.) Pallets are the Killer's choice to break or not with some pallets being more valuable - like shack - to break than others. Dull totems aren't even that. The only in game value to breaking them is to prevent NOED (or if you're running inner strength). Break them and Killer doesn't have NOED? Congrats, you just wasted your time and perhaps threw the game for your team. Couldn't find that one totem on [x] map? Your efforts have been voided. Have a NOED.

I would say that NOED isn't "all or nothing" most of the time. It's only that way if you sacrifice all survs before the gens are completed. Sure, you didn't need it then, but are you sad about not bringing it? Probably not. A Killer just 3 perked their way to a 3-4K. (Maybe a 2K if you got REALLY unlucky with gates.) If you can regularly down and sacrifice all 4 survs before the fifth gen pops with 3 perks, then you don't need NOED at all. Which isn't the same as surv 'second chance' perks which entirely depend on the Killer's playstyle to be relevant.

But Noed also gives a speed boost along with a one hit down. Most gates spawn within spitting distance of each other. The Killer can down the surv they're chasing, hook them near a gate, and force ECG with easy access to where all the other survs are going. Even if the survs find that totem and cleanse it, the ECG still heavily favors the Killer.

Even if the Killer did nothing else all game.

Again, I don't hate NOED, I just don't think that anyone looking at the game from a truly competitive aspect can call it fair.

(Bolding is to give other readers a built in tl;dr by highlighting my main topic points, because I got wordy)

Something that I thought was really elegant about revealing the aura of destroyed totems is that aura reveals actually makes totem finding perks stronger. Small Game and Detective's have more strength because you only need to use them to search a small, select area, which they're both already attuned to. Finding the last two totems should be child's play in 80-90% of cases for someone who has basic knowledge of totem spawns, and only one survivor running one perk would be enough for the other 10-20%.

As an aside, I also think that all survivors should be able to see the builds of all other survivors in the lobby screen. Banners for certain issues, like "no totem tracking perks" and "no dying state recovery perks" would be great, too. Since I've long ago wandered into the territory of wishing for a unicorn for my birthday, I might as well keep going with said loadout displays.

Giving NOED a token system based on the remaining amount of dulls has merit in the current version of the game, where solos aren't able to communicate, but I fervently believe that, given aura reading and numerics to communicate totem progress, purple and red rank solos will be able to reliably cleanse all totems. I don't believe it's an unreasonable expectation. NOED will continue to be an equipable perk as well, so even if they don't cleanse all the totems, they might still benefit from the gamble that the killer doesn't have it.

I also quibble with the effects you chose on implementation, written below, but those concerns are all tangential to the primary point that even one totem remaining should, on principle, unleash NOED's full and overwhelming might. Indeed, even if the last totem takes slightly longer to find (especially without finding perks), that time should be considered part of the slowdown effect of NOED. Perhaps even every dull should be hexed with NOED when activated, requiring all to be cleansed to end the effect, but at minimum having one left should enact a full and mighty effect.

There are certain edge cases, yes. Totem placement in Swamp should be totally reworked, for example, while certain spots in all the indoor maps need adjustment. For example, there is a particular spawn on Leary's, where you must walk upstairs through the Theatre's main stairwell, take a left, run down the entire observation catwalk, and look behind a desk at the end. The spawn is also completely obstructed if the survivor takes the nearby drop-down. In other words, it is very far out of the way of any nearby gens, and invisible unless you look specifically for it. If that totem spot did not exist, I wouldn't shed a tear.

My ideal example of a totem spawn is that specific totem spawn in the asylum long-wall jungle gyms. They're concealed completely by debris, but they're never too far out of the way for a survivor to check, and there's always one that spawns in those cubby areas per match, so survivors should know to check them. Not too far out of your way, but also not visible at a distance. That's my ideal totem. Certain spawns like totems being next to trees in the middle of a deadzone are too visible, and the Leary's example are too far out of the way.

Between the numeric, the aura, and some spawn tweaks, all survivor teams should be able to find all totems, all the time.

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Re: Tokens

Finding the first one or even two totems also tends to be eminently simple. Even now, one or two totems are often cleansed per game for the sake of bloodpoints alone. Inner Strength also rewards cleanses and doesn't require much in the way of searching to use. As a consequence, your 5 and 4 token proposals will never practically see use. Maybe on a map like Leary's and when every survivor has been so negligent as to not bring a single totem couter, as many as 3 tokens can be expected at medium-skill play to ever exist.

Problematically, the one token effect has very limited usability. Trying to down them without exposed introduces risks after the exit gates is powered, especially against a bodyblocking team that has Adrenaline or endgame perks of their own. Not only that, but because it's endgame, the survivor is free to pre-throw every remaining pallet. You need much more than 3% haste to turn highly safe loops into unsafe loops. It would do the trick for moderate safety loops, but those are also the rarest kind. Most loops are either very safe or unsafe. Even if you do then get the hook, if the survivor that you hook is on deathook, then the 1 token effect has provided no value, besides that 3% haste, a lesser haste value compared to current NOED.

When they aren't dead, as I've previously outlined, finding the last totem should be simple enough for a competent team, considering that the survivors can search for the totem even while you're still chasing and downing the first post-NOED survivor. Even without any totem finder perks to speak of, that totem should be found within the minute, before the hook state progresses.

At two tokens it gives another haste and a chance to go on the offensive by allowing realistic possibilities of downs without losing the hook, but if the second token gets cleansed, that will be taken as a sign by killer players to return to the hook in preparation for the last totem to be cleansed. This chain of thought would counterintuitively cause this perk to encourage camping. The only difference between this and normal camping would be that the killer would have a wider acceptable radius that they would be willing to pursue a survivor away from the hook.

This also means that if both are cleansed near to simultaneously to each other, you don't actually get that warning. This means that even at two tokens left, you're actually still in surprising danger of losing the hook, if you're walking toward a given last known location, one survivor is at totem one, one is at totem two, and the third sneaks to hook; or if one totem is close to the hook, and a survivor is working on the other.

Another elegant aspect of my solutions is that they provide almost no benefit to swfs while strongly buffing solos. This interrupts that philosophy, as only a perfectly coordinated team could accomplish this strategy. As a consequence of this strategy existing, killers may be more defensive than you anticipate in regards to defending hooks and downs, whereas something like the idea of giving aura reading within a radius of an exit switch while "ubercharged" would promote hyper-offensive playstyles because the killer knows about the potential for a running/team bodyblock escape. Even at 1 token, bodyblocking and other swf-ish behavior is buffed by your suggestion.

Any implementation of NOED under this scheme must promote hyper-offensive playstyles by allowing killers to rest secure in the knowledge that they are doing more damage per second than survivors could reasonably recover, damage which will be at least half bankable even if NOED is lost or another specialized counter is introduced.

Only at 3 tokens can the killer be certain that the hooked survivor is secure. Now with 9% haste, certain loops of moderate safety become unsafe. Breaking pallets with a weapon ala Cannibal while blocking windows would be useful to create a deadzone, but the window blocks are almost pointless in the long term because totems really aren't that hard to find, and it'd be useless in the short term because 9% haste is normally enough to play around windows anyway. I can see a world where survivors don't even throw pallets against 3 tokens of NOED, because they'd rather save it for later when there's no exposed and the pallet break buys more time.

As I've said before though, I would expect even Green survivors to be able to get two totems over the course of the match, as long as there's a proper totem tutorial and one of them either has good knowledge or a totem finding perk. In exchange for making all totems easier to find, these buffs wouldn't be sufficient to compensate NOED, and even if they were, I'm fundamentally opposed to a token system on the grounds that survivors can rightfully be expected to find every totem.

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Re: Keys

Maps already ping with add-ons and they already track in base kit. Even when keys are reworked, I think they should stay firmly as aura reading on teammates or on the killer. Giving key free Windows of Opportunity sounds more like their wheelhouse to me. Totems and pinging both are more the domain of maps.

A green item that can track totem auras is important though. I think giving maps a base alternate mode that shows totems but burns three times as fast would work. Something like press m5 while the ability is channeling and you're standing still. Red Twine would still have a place by making the map last longer, then.

Certain forms of pinging for communication e.g. "I'm on a gen!" should be base kit, imo, no key required.

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In fairness to opposition to my arguement, a nightmare scenario of my own making has occurred to me, that a killer might stand still and guard the final remaining totem when there's only 3 gens left. To counter this, I'd suggest doing the totems before the final gen to avoid the killer improvising this strat, or leave the furthest gens from that totem for last while having a survivor wait at the gate in anticipation if the killer is clearly planning this from the onset. The buff to NOED would have to somehow at least be asynergistic if not anti-synergistic to such a strategy, or else a perk would have to be especially made to counter that. Disabling certain benefits of the perk within a certain distance of the totem might be the best course of action.

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In conclusion, I reassert that survivors can be expected to do all totems with my proposed changes, certain god-spawns and trash-spawns for totems should be removed to mitigate the occurrence of edge cases, and tokens systems where token 1 is not overwhelming undermine NOED's purpose to act as deterrent and slowdown.

I also argue against a specific token implementation system despite my primary opposition to them being on principle. If tokens ever were to be implemented, 90% of the effects should be at one token, and other tokens should provide a smaller incremental scaling effect, like haste.

NoED is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion, as there's a clear counter to it. Sure, it can be a "clutch perk" in the sense that it can give a weaker killer a second chance at getting more hooks, but it's no more of a second-chance perk than the likes of Dead Hard, Unbreakable, Decisive Strike etc. People just get their back up about it because they think that just because five gens are completed they've rightfully "won" the game, yet NoED can come along and completely change the outcome of a match in such a short amount of time.

Also, people who say it's a cheap/easy win, it's no moreso than a survivor bringing a key and ending a game abruptly early just for the sake of a free escape.

No, it really isn't. The time is shorter and the perk can deactivate by doing almost anything else. Survs can no longer do certain things with the safety of DS at their backs. And just to note, I'm not saying they should have. While a Killer can patrol two gates at end game, usually already having gotten a down with NOED and a hook nearby, with NOED safely at their backs. Just survs having to look for NOED opens up opportunity for Killers both before and after the gens are finished. It has way more use than current DS.

Do Bones.