When are the devs gonna get rid of NOED?
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Survivors just 99 the gate, that woukd make it useless
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Then the killer kills 2 and gets a 3rd while in chase with NOED because there is no time to do it all. Probably a 4th if he's/she's fast.
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By magic? Not sure how many different ways this needs to be explained to you. You already got 1 to 2 gens by the time he got his first down. He face capms, 3 survivors can do 3 to 4 gens by the time that survivor dies on hook. Then, JUST LEAVE. Open the gates and dip. He MIGHT get 1 person. MAYBE. Thats what actually happens to face campers in reds (assuming everyone doesnt swarm the hook).
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You keep making up scenarios where the Killer somehow gets everyone while skipping over HOW, because, from a numbers/time standpoint; it's impossible.
You seem to be dead set to invalidate arguments against changing NoED by saying 'It won't work because reasons' and think that invalidates people giving you actual, real, concrete numbers & evidence as to why a Killer camping with NoED would get 1, maybe 2, kills.
But your counter-argument is simply 'The Killer would get 4 kills, seriously' without anything to back up that claim other than 'Because he would'. Or, more accurately, because if he does not, your argument falls apart.
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NOED needs to be reworked to be a very different perk. No killer should be rewarded for losing all of the generators.
Anybody who claims it has reasonable counter play are just salty killer mains. There's no way a random group of survivors can spend up to 5 minutes looking around the entire map for every single totem, it is way unrealistic.
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Next time, before you make any kind of remark, just -READ. MY. POST.-
No, giving it a time limit won't fix it. But making it dependent on the amount of totems left as opposed to this 'all or nothing' thing WOULD be an improvement. Currently, clearing 4 out of 5 does NOTHING to counter NOED. This is why doing bones is such a craptastic argument against NOED: You're not going to do all five solo without screwing over your team, and you're not going to be able to coordinate a clean 5-totem clear in solo play. This means that any individual effort you put in to get the 5-totem cleanse NOED block is far, FAR more likely to set your team back and STILL not stop NOED.
You take it's effect, which ANYONE can see works the way I said it works, and reply with 'See? That means no one will cleanse! Ha!' with absolutely 0 evidence to back up your claim other than you said so.
So does it not still retain its full function when you cleanse 4 out of 5 totems? Does it not cost a ton of time to get all five totems done? Does it not waste your time tremendously if you do all five and the killer -doesn't- have NOED?
I keep explaining in what ways it is disadvantageous to do bones against NOED and you just refuse to argue against any of that in lieu of just going 'dumb survivors just want ez escape, don't want to do bones!'
I RAN your strategy. Detective's Hunch, dropping everything to get totems done and guess what? I blocked NOED -once-. In ALL other cases, either I couldn't clear all five totems which meant NOED fired anyway and I just wasted my team's time, or the killer didn't have NOED and I just wasted my team's time.
Yes, it -can- be deactivated. But that doesn't mean that that is an effective or tenable strategy.
You have HOW MANY perks and items and addons that speed up totem cleansing or show you where bones are?! USE THEM.
Sure, if you want to make the game into rochambeau. But we also need to take BT against camping, DS against tunnelling, UB against slugging, IW against Spirit, DH against Nurse and Spine Chill against stealth killers. So where exactly do you want us to fit DetHunch or SG?
Your fix is a nerf, plain and simple. Anyone can see it.
Oh yes, making it baseline is a real harsh nerf. And getting two-and-a-half extra minutes to track and kill survivors is a really raw deal, huh?
At least I'm trying to think of a solution instead of just bull-headedly repeating the same tired old trope that I already explained doesn't work.
Doing. Bones. Isn't. NOED's. Counter.
That once-in-a-blue-moon NOED block does not outweigh the thousands of times survivors cleanse fewer than 5 and get punished hard for it.
But I get it; those perks aren't META. You guys want to ignore bones and keep your META perks; hence this thread. it's nothing more than 'We COULD do bones, but we don't WANT to do bones. So please change NoED so we never have to worry. K thx!'
And you call -me- whiny?
Also, I am literally saying NOED would be better designed if it was baseline and you somehow misinterpret it so thoroughly that you caricature it as 'please change NOED so we never have to worry'. Are you drunk?
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For real. I love that the argument is “do bones” when I’m usually running a super oppressive early game build where you will probably die if the survivors are not slamming gens all game. Do the bones all you want, you will lose because I don’t have NOED and you don’t have the time to cleanse them.
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Survivors have enough trouble looking for just Ruin lol.
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I will say it again; You point to NoED 'wasting time' without any payout as a flaw. It is NOT. The point of NoED is to make you do totems, even if it is not in the match.
Your argument towards why NoED is bad is why NoED works in the first place! It's an unknown threat. You don't know if a Killer has it, so you take the time to do bones. Either it pays off and your team clears all 5 bones, or it does not.
You're not meant to do all 5 on your own, so if YOU could not get all 5 bones, then your team also failed. Or the Killer succeeded in protecting a totem.
But you act like Survivors should ALWAYS get rewarded via Killer debuffs for cleansing totems, and anything less is bad design. This is wrong.
NoED is a damn all-or-nothing perk:
- Either it survives until endgame, or the Killer wasted a perk slot
- Either YOUR TEAM OF FOUR cleanses FIVE TOTEMS, or NoED procs.
It's all-or-nothing for Survivors AND Killers.
But keep pointing to how it makes you 'waste time'; This. Is. What. it. Does. It makes you risk doing totems on the chance a Killer has it.
Just like a Killer works with 3 perks all match on the chance it does not get cleansed.
If YOU decide that doing 5 totems is 'too hard', then you eat NoED. This is not bad design. This is not a game problem. This is a YOU problem.
YOU are deciding not to try for 5 bones. YOU are risking the punishment for it. The devs don't have to bend over backwards to change a perk simply because YOU are too lazy to use the counters that exist.
That's like getting angry that healing exists because you can't just naturally heal over time.
'Man, it sucks that I get injured I should just heal back to Healthy after 30 seconds!'
'But you have med kits, Self Care, and teammates to rely on.'
'Yeah but that takes time I don't have! That's bad design! I should just heal because I want too! Using a medkit just takes too long, and teammates might fail skillchecks! Devs; change how healing works, because I don't want to stop doing gens!'
For the final damn time; NoED is SUPPOSED to make you waste time. NoED is SUPPOSED to be an unknown threat. NoED is all-or-nothing FOR BOTH SURVIVORS AND KILLERS.
But instead of using what you have to counter it, you want the perk to do nothing all game, then have a time limit in the end game.
I don't care what you try to call it; that is a nerf for killers. Survivors will just immerse for two minutes and then be safe. Plus, slower Killers won't be able to cross bigger maps, or search effectively, in that time limit.
That would be garbage for a Killer to waste a perk slot on. it would go from 'I got to the end game; time to benefit from NoED' to 'I got to the end game, everyone hid, and I got no use out of NoED'.
Do you now understand why NoED is fine as-is? Or are you going to ignore everything I said, AGAIN, and pretend 'It makes me waste time, and I don't wanna' is a valid critique?
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noed should be haunted grounds for end game, that's it. A total of 30 seconds tops for endgame. (honestly i skipped most of the discussion as tldr, but this is my belief.) kthnx. I'm free btw, feel free to keep this idea papow
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I heard a pretty good argument about this from a youtuber. That if it's fair for Survivors to have exhaustion perks throughout the entirety of the match, why is it not fair for killers to have NOED at the end of the match, if it even activates at all.
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Because Survivors have invented a false narrative where 5 gens popping is a Killer 'failing' to win (even though he can still Kill people at that point). Using this false narrative, they can claim NoED 'rewards failure' because that sounds better for their argument than 'The Killer planned for the long game'.
They also sometimes believe that, if they popped 5 gens, they deserve to escape, and the gate is a mere formality. Thus, NoED is openly crushing their view of how the game works. Since they 'already won' in their minds, NoED is clearly 'punishing Survivors unfairly' by taking away their 'win' before they leave the match.
They cannot comprehend that a Killer bringing NoED is giving up 1 perk slot for the entire match, because they can never remove ANYTHING non-meta. And they also don't want to admit that the Killer out-played them or planned ahead; that would be admitting they made a mistake.
But they don't make mistakes, so clearly the fault is in NoED's design.
They also refuse to do anything but gens as fast as possible. Then NoED slaps them in the face.
But instead of changing their tactics, or their perks (remember; they won't play anything non-meta), they stubbornly refuse to do bones because they don't want to waste time on anything except gens; gens is how they win ASAP. And since they can't admit to themselves that non-meta perks exist, or that they made a mistake; it must be NoED's design that's at fault.
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NOED is by far the most pathetic perk a killer can run to literally give them INSANE power in the end game all because survivors didn't ignore the main objective to do totems which does NOTHING to power the exit gates. I have literally tried running totem builds like crazy to try and find all of the totems every match and it is ALWAYS the same outcome. Either everyone is dead by the time I find them all or so many people are dead hook and dead with 3+ gens up that its not even worth trying at that point. NOED is an extremely overpowered perk that killers use to do nothing but give them a huge end game advantage and rewards them getting a single M1 on a survivor regardless of their health state. I will never be convinced otherwise that killers have way more power, control and advantage in a match than survivors do in any situation and NOED is one of the perks that literally ruins this game and completely ignores how well survivors played throughout the match so long as just 1 dull totem is up at the end. Either lower the amount of totems that spawn to 3 or get rid of this perk altogether. I am beyond sick of seeing killers win from this one perk.
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Im going to run this just for you 😁
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No, you're going to run it to further agitate the community and survivors that play this game for the sake of trolling... or did I interpret your snarky reply wrong? You're nothing special for doing it anyway. I see NOED literally in most of my matches and guess what? I don't have fun in most of my matches.
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My team can't sit still the entire match, do nothing and still escape. The killer can and get 4k after all the gens are done with NOED. Fair game isn't it?...
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Then why still play?
Not for trolling, its a fun build, especially on fred 😁
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The killer can get a 4k without moving? How does that work?
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The killer doesn't have to do generators or worry about cleansing totems. The killer can literally do nothing the entire match THEN start moving around and have a chance to 4k if they have NOED. I thought that point was self explanatory honestly.
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I won't be for much longer. Probably when the event is over I'll be taking a very long break from DBD. All my friends have already quit the game and playing solo is always a gamble on how much the killer actually cares about their rank.
Also when you say things like "I'm going to run this just for you" then there really is no other way for me to interpret that than you wanting to do it for the sake of trolling or just making me or just survivors in general more frustrated with the game.
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Hey can I ask you a question
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They wouldnt be frustrated with the game if they just left when noed pops. Its really not hard to counter, either do bones, or leave when you see it. Bones were introduced for a reason. Theyre meant to be a secondary objective. If you just want to slam gens and leave, how is that fun for the killer? Noed leaves that threat there, if you dont do tge secondary objective then youre taking the risk 🤷♂️
It was a jab at you because you seem to be really angry about something that has a simple solution. Drop one of your meta perks for small game, or detectives hunch and do bones
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Do you have any idea the likelyhoid of downing 4 survivors if you do that as killer? 😂 its very small because most survivors just leave when they see noed is in play. It was self explanatory, i was pointing out the ridiculousness of the statement which is several differenymt ways. The obvious being if the killer isnt moviing all game you can take as much time as you want to break totems, theres no rush. If the killer has noed, he still has to traxk down, cgase and down all 4 of you in about 30 seconds. If you and/or most if your team cant get out in 30 secs i dont really know what to tell you. And ladt but certainly not least, the killers objective is to prevent you from escaping. Your ibjective is to escape. Gens and totems are what stand in tge way of that. If a killer is able to 4k every single game never moving till after gens are done, thats on you
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Again, you missed the point. Its like a trend here it seems. The point is, no matter what survivors have to be active during the match doing their objectives to have a chance to escape. NOED gives the killer insane power to get 4k if only ONE dull totem is up by then. I have already told you and said in other posts how focusing on totems every match let alone getting them all every match just for the chance there may be noed is unreasonable. The totems all too often spawn very far apart and not only do I have to get to them but I have to avoid the killer and also do some team saving inbetween depending on the situation. Its not as simple as just run to the totems and hold M1 on them.
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Its not that its unreasonable, its that its a waste of time if you can just leave when it pops.
"The point is, no matter what survivors have to be active doing their objective in order to have a chance at escape"
You get that this isnt true right? It takes significantly more time to down hook and find 4 different survivors 12 times than it does to do gens. This is why killers resort to camping/hooking/slugging.
Just to give you the smallest example. Lets assume it takes on average 7 seconds for a killer to hook a survivor, this includes the animation and walking to a hook. That equates to 21 seconds of generator time lost. Generators only take 80 seconds to do. You lose an entire generator just hooking 4 survivors. Hooking them. Not chasing and downing them. JUST hooking them. This is why bones exist, its why hexes were added to the game. Because generators as the survivors sole objective isnt enough. Its why i dont have much empathy in terms of noed, i dont even get mad when i die to it. Its part of the game and for good reason.
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Again, you are failing to comprehend.
YES, NOED wasting time without pay-out is a flaw. Because THAT is what incentivises people NOT to do totems. If you clear 4 out of 5 and get nothing for it, then you effectively get punished for doing those 4! If you clear 5 out of 5 and the killer doesn't run NOED, then you effectively get punished for doing those 5!
In the vast majority of cases, probably over 90% of cases, you get punished for doing totems, not rewarded.
This is why I -stopped- doing totems except to charge Inner Strength: It is a way better tactical option to not bother with totems, in -all- situations. The ONLY time you might want to do a totem is if it is in a difficult to memorise/difficult to cleanse position, and you know the locations of other totems.
You're not meant to do all 5 on your own, so if YOU could not get all 5 bones, then your team also failed.
So unless your teammates are doing their part, you doing totems could very well just end up hampering you, really badly.
This is your problem: You are running this mindset entirely in a realm of theory. In practicality, this is not a tenable or effective strategy.
YOU are deciding not to try for 5 bones.
You are -legitimately- not reading my posts.
I tried to do this. I tried to get all five done, with DetHunch and Inner Strength in my build to help facilitate it, and it just doesn't work. It is just not an effective strategy. In all the matches I ran that, I had one NOED blocked, and that was against a killer bad enough to stretch the game out for that badly.
I have countered NOED more than that though, but in all other cases, I -didn't- do totems and got rewarded for it by finding NOED after it had gone live, which was possible because I -didn't- cleanse the totems I found.
I don't have an issue with the idea of survivors having to do totems. I wouldn't mind if NOED forced me to do that.
I am demonstrating to you that NOED does the exact opposite of what you say it does.
You do not counter NOED by doing bones. That is not my opinion, that is the objective strategic fact.
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Personally I agree. Best strat is to ingnore it, if it activates, leave, let the killer have his 1k. I feel the same way when im the 1 on the hook. Otherwise you run the risk of him having blood warden too. Some of us are sneaky with the blood warden
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You literally can do 0 gens and escape by hatch.
WITHOUT the use of perks, items or offerings.
Your argument was pure survivor hypocrisy.
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Counterforce does not, by any means equal noed.
Noed - I don't have to meaningfully exceed at my primary objective until the end of the match where I could have a HUGE advantage.
Counterforce (or any totem perk) - I have to actively not pay attention to my primary objective to avoid a penalty for paying attention to my primary objective.
tbc - i don't dislike NOED, but the two are not one in the same.
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Incorrect. Survs would still do totems for Ruin (assuming the Killer has gen pressure) and for Devour Hope. NOED doesn't need to be removed, but lbr about the impact it has on a match.
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Sure, the Killer has to use ONE perk slot for a perk that could allow them multiple one hit downs (plus a speed boost to help that out!). Just search youtube for Killers who wait until the end of the match when they get NOED to actually start playing.
No, SWF isn't irrevelant. It's very relevant when it comes to dealing with NOED. A good SWF group can decide how they want to handle it where soloq has to guess what everyone else wants to do.
You may cleanse 3 totems a game. Most of the time I do too. But those games where NOED is active? Hah, gimme a break. It's free downs and better than any singular surv 'second chance' perk. And that's okay. It's a game around slasher horror, but don't pretend that NOED is some 'very fair' perk. It isn't.
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Don't most Killers also want the match over quick? The more time survs have, the more gens they can get done. DBD is all about time. If you don't get at least 2-3 gens done before the first hook, survs are going to have hard time. If the Killer doesn't do the same, they're going to have a hard time.
Totems, and doing them, take survs away from doing the objective that let's them WIN for something that might not even be in play. Hunting totems to cleanse them might very well kill a solo team. Not because they did anything wrong, but because they extended the match.
Isn't that same as old DS? Killers had to fear it because it kept them doing their primary objective?
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It still does, ds still functions in the way it always has, it just stops giving you invincibility once its clear youre not being tunneled
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Regardless of the fact that DS is a bad 'anti-tunnel' perk, my point was that old DS gave an exceeding amount of value for what it was: a one time use perk that could be avoided - AT HIGH COST - for the Killer. Which is the same as NOED. Sure, survs can avoid it, but it has a tremendous cost to avoid.
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It is more powerful than second chance perks because, well, by definition a second chance is always used, or if not, it is because you didn't even need it.
NOED is all or nothing. It is absolutely broken if you let it come online end game and decide to be altruistic without first cleansing it, for whatever reason, absolutely. But if you rush out competently, or cleanse it before going for a save, the perk is absolutely a wasted slot.
You are fixating on when it gets value and attributing its power to that state alone. It is pretty fair in that regard specifically.
Downing people in one hit? Not fair. Running the perk, fair. If that makes sense.
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I'd almost agree with you except the Killer can force the decision by opening the exit gates. And the very nature of NOED let's the Killer know almost exactly where to find survs. They're going for the exit gates. Of course they are. They finished their true secondary objective - the first being to escape.
i guess the closest I can equate it to is if surv had a perk that required the Killer to kick all thrown pallets on a map before they could down a surv in end game. (Not exact, but the closest I can come to at the moment.) Pallets are the Killer's choice to break or not with some pallets being more valuable - like shack - to break than others. Dull totems aren't even that. The only in game value to breaking them is to prevent NOED (or if you're running inner strength). Break them and Killer doesn't have NOED? Congrats, you just wasted your time and perhaps threw the game for your team. Couldn't find that one totem on [x] map? Your efforts have been voided. Have a NOED.
I would say that NOED isn't "all or nothing" most of the time. It's only that way if you sacrifice all survs before the gens are completed. Sure, you didn't need it then, but are you sad about not bringing it? Probably not. A Killer just 3 perked their way to a 3-4K. (Maybe a 2K if you got REALLY unlucky with gates.) If you can regularly down and sacrifice all 4 survs before the fifth gen pops with 3 perks, then you don't need NOED at all. Which isn't the same as surv 'second chance' perks which entirely depend on the Killer's playstyle to be relevant.
But Noed also gives a speed boost along with a one hit down. Most gates spawn within spitting distance of each other. The Killer can down the surv they're chasing, hook them near a gate, and force ECG with easy access to where all the other survs are going. Even if the survs find that totem and cleanse it, the ECG still heavily favors the Killer.
Even if the Killer did nothing else all game.
Again, I don't hate NOED, I just don't think that anyone looking at the game from a truly competitive aspect can call it fair.
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I think that there are two things that need to be done for NOED to be a functional perk. As @Firellius has said, NOED currently fails as a timewaster perk because it incentivizes noting and saving totems rather than actually cleansing them. This is the strat as a consequence of several other problems: 1) other survivors can't be counted on to do totems; 2) doing four totems often leaves the final totem as the one that was spawned as the most well-hidden, causing NOED to be immortal barring a survivor grid searching the trial with Small Game; and 3) NOED isn't actually dangerous enough to justify the time wasted cleansing totems because it's only typically able to secure one additional down.
The problem of issue 1 is interestingly self-reinforcing. Survivors can't be trusted to do totems, and the reason why survivors can't be trusted to do their fair of totems is because they don't trust you to do your fair share of totems. So, you won't do totems because you should either do all of the totems or none of them, and if the other survivors won't help you do all of them, then you should do none of them.
The answer to this is to introduce communication and accountability among the team. A base kit numerical HUD counter of totems that remain standing in the trial. Survivors that do cleanse totems now know that they aren't wasting their time in the trial, and survivors that haven't cleansed one yet both know that it won't be wasted effort if they do, and they also feel a mild peer pressure if they continue to fail to do totems. This solution also has the added benefit of reducing the gap between solo and swf play.
2 is a much less straightforward problem to solve, but I think I've got an idea. Essentially, something needs to happen to make it so that the last one (or even two) totems standing in the map cannot be in any hypothetical location that a totem could be. There's simply too much space for survivors to grid search the entire trial if there's one god-totem spawn.
One possibility is to make the dull totem cleanse snap a global sound effect, and cause a broken totem's aura to be visible to all survivors for seven seconds. This means that a group of solo survivors are able to see the location of all completed totems and exclude nearby areas from any future totem search. This is also something that swfs can do base kit, by simply communicating where a totem was broken, so it's not taking anything from killers that swf doesn't already. For solos, survivors with small game only have to search a limited area, and survivors with Detective's Hunch can try to do the gen closest to the uncleansed zone, assuming this broken aura hint wasn't enough to give it away already. This also reduces the gap between solo and swf play. Depending on playtesting, this aura may or may not be affected by blindness. On one hand, Third Seal needs some love. On the other... well, see item 3.
I'm actually a killer main myself, so naturally item 3 is where I get to have fun. The solution to NOED not actually being strong enough to justify the time sink is self-apparent: give NOED a phat, gargantuan, dummy T H I C C buff. There's half a dozen ways you can do this; it's an area where the devs could really exercise their creativity. I sleep on a 4% haste, I wake on a 15% haste status effect. Miss me with that exposed on basic attacks--I want that exposed on all attacks, from all damage sources, all the time--Endurance has no power here. No room for Infectious Fright, 'cuz my bae, my honey NOED gives aura reading within 16 meters of the killer, and within 8 meters of any gate switch. I should be spending more time carrying survivors to hook than I should in downing them once in chase. I want NOED to be the kind of oppressive that survivors currently think it is.
More seriously, none of these proposed changes are necessarily the right change, but the important part is that there is a buff, and that the buff is massive. All else is specifics that I would lead to the dev team, or that I would be willing to argue separately, with the understanding that any given disagreement over the manner of the buff bears no relevance to the underlying concept that a large buff to NOED corrects the power imbalances caused by the alterations for items 1 and 2.
Survivors should get their number counter of totems, and auras to tell them where all the cleansed totems have been, all on top of any of the 3 locator perks; and if they still chose not to cleanse totems against a killer that has it, then NOED should body them for their mistake. Because this will basically declare open season on all totems, certain other hex perks may need to be mildly buffed to retain their strength.
There's only one caveat to this scheme, which is that low-rank players will struggle to understand how to execute this. I haven't played the new tutorials yet, because I'm saving the bp for the next killer that I take a shine to, but I think a quick NOED/totem tutorial for survivor would be best. Something like starting it with the survivor at a high vantage point with all totems highlighted as they spawn with a map. Give a brief explanation of maps, Small Game, and the totem number counter. Have them drop from the vantage point to a gen with an active Hex: Huntress's Lullaby (since that's the only gen-affecting free hex perk), then have 3 bots do 3 other dulls as the player finishes, with an instruction to note the location of cleansed dull totems.
Then instruct the player to search for the final dull using the map and small game. Maybe when they get started on cleansing it, a bot finishes an example gen and another survivor bot instantly goes down to the NOED, to emphasize its importance. This also can be used as a learning opportunity to explain what Exposed does. I know that a lot of first-time players think exposed means that their aura is revealed or similar. The tutorial ends when they cleanse the NOED.
This really shouldn't take too long. A minute to make pop-ups about maps, Small Game, and NOED. 14 seconds to cleanse, then touch the almost completed gen. I'd say that the survivor should be put on rails leading them to the last dull/NOED, using the Bloodwarden bars that the tutorial uses. 10 or 15 seconds of travel later, they cleanse another totem, then end scene.
It sounds like a lot to explain to a new player, but you don't actually have to explain the complex theory behind it. They just need to know to do totems, that totems have assigned areas that won't overlap with each other, and that NOED activating is very bad. New players never really play the game correctly anyway, part of being new is making mistakes, and eventually they will become better and understand how to interact with the totem system.
The gap between solos and swfs is narrowed, all Hex totems are more interactive, cleansing totems in general is easier and now has a fun, zoning puzzle element to it, the method of handling NOED is more explained and intuitive for new players, and NOED remains a strong perk that does an even better job of delivering on heights of the killer power fantasy. Everyone's happy.
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When are you gonna start doing bones
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This doesn't quite tackle the '4 out of 5 = 0' problem, but I may have an idea for that, as it can tie in to the 'thicc buff'...
HEX: NOED
Once the fifth generator is completed, all remaining dull totems are converted into hex totems. This perk gains a token for every remaining hex totem, and loses a token for every hex that gets cleansed. For each token, the killer gains 3% haste and additional, cumulative benefits.
1 token: The entity blocks a hook when a survivor is put on it, disallowing rescues.
2 tokens: All survivors are exposed.
3 tokens: The killer can break pallets and walls with a basic attack, and any window that a survivor vaults becomes blocked indefinitely.
4 tokens: The killer sees the auras of survivors within 30 meters.
5 tokens: When a survivor enters the downed state, they are immediately sacrificed.
That way, it is weaker but still impactful at just one totem left. It is stronger at two totems left, and it is WAY stronger at 3 or more.
Then maybe we can also ditch keys and rework them into aura reading items with a special effect that makes them ping whenever a totem is within X meters, so that they have a function without demanding an add-on. Just so we have a green item to do soft totem hunting.
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(Bolding is to give other readers a built in tl;dr by highlighting my main topic points, because I got wordy)
Something that I thought was really elegant about revealing the aura of destroyed totems is that aura reveals actually makes totem finding perks stronger. Small Game and Detective's have more strength because you only need to use them to search a small, select area, which they're both already attuned to. Finding the last two totems should be child's play in 80-90% of cases for someone who has basic knowledge of totem spawns, and only one survivor running one perk would be enough for the other 10-20%.
As an aside, I also think that all survivors should be able to see the builds of all other survivors in the lobby screen. Banners for certain issues, like "no totem tracking perks" and "no dying state recovery perks" would be great, too. Since I've long ago wandered into the territory of wishing for a unicorn for my birthday, I might as well keep going with said loadout displays.
Giving NOED a token system based on the remaining amount of dulls has merit in the current version of the game, where solos aren't able to communicate, but I fervently believe that, given aura reading and numerics to communicate totem progress, purple and red rank solos will be able to reliably cleanse all totems. I don't believe it's an unreasonable expectation. NOED will continue to be an equipable perk as well, so even if they don't cleanse all the totems, they might still benefit from the gamble that the killer doesn't have it.
I also quibble with the effects you chose on implementation, written below, but those concerns are all tangential to the primary point that even one totem remaining should, on principle, unleash NOED's full and overwhelming might. Indeed, even if the last totem takes slightly longer to find (especially without finding perks), that time should be considered part of the slowdown effect of NOED. Perhaps even every dull should be hexed with NOED when activated, requiring all to be cleansed to end the effect, but at minimum having one left should enact a full and mighty effect.
There are certain edge cases, yes. Totem placement in Swamp should be totally reworked, for example, while certain spots in all the indoor maps need adjustment. For example, there is a particular spawn on Leary's, where you must walk upstairs through the Theatre's main stairwell, take a left, run down the entire observation catwalk, and look behind a desk at the end. The spawn is also completely obstructed if the survivor takes the nearby drop-down. In other words, it is very far out of the way of any nearby gens, and invisible unless you look specifically for it. If that totem spot did not exist, I wouldn't shed a tear.
My ideal example of a totem spawn is that specific totem spawn in the asylum long-wall jungle gyms. They're concealed completely by debris, but they're never too far out of the way for a survivor to check, and there's always one that spawns in those cubby areas per match, so survivors should know to check them. Not too far out of your way, but also not visible at a distance. That's my ideal totem. Certain spawns like totems being next to trees in the middle of a deadzone are too visible, and the Leary's example are too far out of the way.
Between the numeric, the aura, and some spawn tweaks, all survivor teams should be able to find all totems, all the time.
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Re: Tokens
Finding the first one or even two totems also tends to be eminently simple. Even now, one or two totems are often cleansed per game for the sake of bloodpoints alone. Inner Strength also rewards cleanses and doesn't require much in the way of searching to use. As a consequence, your 5 and 4 token proposals will never practically see use. Maybe on a map like Leary's and when every survivor has been so negligent as to not bring a single totem couter, as many as 3 tokens can be expected at medium-skill play to ever exist.
Problematically, the one token effect has very limited usability. Trying to down them without exposed introduces risks after the exit gates is powered, especially against a bodyblocking team that has Adrenaline or endgame perks of their own. Not only that, but because it's endgame, the survivor is free to pre-throw every remaining pallet. You need much more than 3% haste to turn highly safe loops into unsafe loops. It would do the trick for moderate safety loops, but those are also the rarest kind. Most loops are either very safe or unsafe. Even if you do then get the hook, if the survivor that you hook is on deathook, then the 1 token effect has provided no value, besides that 3% haste, a lesser haste value compared to current NOED.
When they aren't dead, as I've previously outlined, finding the last totem should be simple enough for a competent team, considering that the survivors can search for the totem even while you're still chasing and downing the first post-NOED survivor. Even without any totem finder perks to speak of, that totem should be found within the minute, before the hook state progresses.
At two tokens it gives another haste and a chance to go on the offensive by allowing realistic possibilities of downs without losing the hook, but if the second token gets cleansed, that will be taken as a sign by killer players to return to the hook in preparation for the last totem to be cleansed. This chain of thought would counterintuitively cause this perk to encourage camping. The only difference between this and normal camping would be that the killer would have a wider acceptable radius that they would be willing to pursue a survivor away from the hook.
This also means that if both are cleansed near to simultaneously to each other, you don't actually get that warning. This means that even at two tokens left, you're actually still in surprising danger of losing the hook, if you're walking toward a given last known location, one survivor is at totem one, one is at totem two, and the third sneaks to hook; or if one totem is close to the hook, and a survivor is working on the other.
Another elegant aspect of my solutions is that they provide almost no benefit to swfs while strongly buffing solos. This interrupts that philosophy, as only a perfectly coordinated team could accomplish this strategy. As a consequence of this strategy existing, killers may be more defensive than you anticipate in regards to defending hooks and downs, whereas something like the idea of giving aura reading within a radius of an exit switch while "ubercharged" would promote hyper-offensive playstyles because the killer knows about the potential for a running/team bodyblock escape. Even at 1 token, bodyblocking and other swf-ish behavior is buffed by your suggestion.
Any implementation of NOED under this scheme must promote hyper-offensive playstyles by allowing killers to rest secure in the knowledge that they are doing more damage per second than survivors could reasonably recover, damage which will be at least half bankable even if NOED is lost or another specialized counter is introduced.
Only at 3 tokens can the killer be certain that the hooked survivor is secure. Now with 9% haste, certain loops of moderate safety become unsafe. Breaking pallets with a weapon ala Cannibal while blocking windows would be useful to create a deadzone, but the window blocks are almost pointless in the long term because totems really aren't that hard to find, and it'd be useless in the short term because 9% haste is normally enough to play around windows anyway. I can see a world where survivors don't even throw pallets against 3 tokens of NOED, because they'd rather save it for later when there's no exposed and the pallet break buys more time.
As I've said before though, I would expect even Green survivors to be able to get two totems over the course of the match, as long as there's a proper totem tutorial and one of them either has good knowledge or a totem finding perk. In exchange for making all totems easier to find, these buffs wouldn't be sufficient to compensate NOED, and even if they were, I'm fundamentally opposed to a token system on the grounds that survivors can rightfully be expected to find every totem.
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Re: Keys
Maps already ping with add-ons and they already track in base kit. Even when keys are reworked, I think they should stay firmly as aura reading on teammates or on the killer. Giving key free Windows of Opportunity sounds more like their wheelhouse to me. Totems and pinging both are more the domain of maps.
A green item that can track totem auras is important though. I think giving maps a base alternate mode that shows totems but burns three times as fast would work. Something like press m5 while the ability is channeling and you're standing still. Red Twine would still have a place by making the map last longer, then.
Certain forms of pinging for communication e.g. "I'm on a gen!" should be base kit, imo, no key required.
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In fairness to opposition to my arguement, a nightmare scenario of my own making has occurred to me, that a killer might stand still and guard the final remaining totem when there's only 3 gens left. To counter this, I'd suggest doing the totems before the final gen to avoid the killer improvising this strat, or leave the furthest gens from that totem for last while having a survivor wait at the gate in anticipation if the killer is clearly planning this from the onset. The buff to NOED would have to somehow at least be asynergistic if not anti-synergistic to such a strategy, or else a perk would have to be especially made to counter that. Disabling certain benefits of the perk within a certain distance of the totem might be the best course of action.
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In conclusion, I reassert that survivors can be expected to do all totems with my proposed changes, certain god-spawns and trash-spawns for totems should be removed to mitigate the occurrence of edge cases, and tokens systems where token 1 is not overwhelming undermine NOED's purpose to act as deterrent and slowdown.
I also argue against a specific token implementation system despite my primary opposition to them being on principle. If tokens ever were to be implemented, 90% of the effects should be at one token, and other tokens should provide a smaller incremental scaling effect, like haste.
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I hate when people say just do the totems because if you go around cleansing them all, 1 - you might not even make it to end game, and 2 - they might not even have noed, so you've just wasted a lot of time with the fear of 1 perk.
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NoED is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion, as there's a clear counter to it. Sure, it can be a "clutch perk" in the sense that it can give a weaker killer a second chance at getting more hooks, but it's no more of a second-chance perk than the likes of Dead Hard, Unbreakable, Decisive Strike etc. People just get their back up about it because they think that just because five gens are completed they've rightfully "won" the game, yet NoED can come along and completely change the outcome of a match in such a short amount of time.
Also, people who say it's a cheap/easy win, it's no moreso than a survivor bringing a key and ending a game abruptly early just for the sake of a free escape.
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the fact you think it would take 5-6 minutes to cleanse all the totems is just idiotic, some maps it takes that long just to find one tottem, also what games do you killer mains play where gens are all done in 5 minutes, I've only ever had maybe 10 out of hundreds of games where that ######### happens, if survivors get all 5 gens done in 5-6 minutes against you regularly that just means your #########, RUIN and POP are there for a reason.
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because it's not as simple as clicking your fingers and knowing where all of them are, it has legit taken teams 10 minutes to find all the totems nevermind cleansing them
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And my point was thats still true for ds. If i down someone that just got off hook i am well aware, and even still assume, im about to get stabbed. The only thing thats changed with ds is if i see you on a gen injured and you just got off hook, game on
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No, it really isn't. The time is shorter and the perk can deactivate by doing almost anything else. Survs can no longer do certain things with the safety of DS at their backs. And just to note, I'm not saying they should have. While a Killer can patrol two gates at end game, usually already having gotten a down with NOED and a hook nearby, with NOED safely at their backs. Just survs having to look for NOED opens up opportunity for Killers both before and after the gens are finished. It has way more use than current DS.
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Especially with that new Jill's perk which I forgot the name (the one which you can cleanse 20% faster stackable each time every totem and see the aura of the next)
People won't stop complaining about gen rushing with SWF doped squads. And even I in red rank wehn the 4 swf get to finish the game within 3 or 4 minutes, Noed is the only game changer in this situation.
So before complaining against a perk that breaks gen rushing, please try to get some fun out of the game and do other objectives. And if you absolutely want to play very competitive and finish a game in 4 minutes, gen rush but don't complain you get killed at the end because of Noed.
NOED can be countered by cleansing within the game, or even at the end, the totem can be cleansed.
I play both killer and survivors and I see nothing wrong with killers who get pissed to always get doped SWF squads and want to have a last resort.
I don't know how you are playing to get these play times in a single trial, an overall trial time is more or less 10 minutes...
So I think you are exaggerating to make your point. Yes on some maps it can be very hard to find totems, but you have tools for it: as I know, 2 perks exist to find totems easier (the one with Jill, and the other one when you get notified you are looking in a certain angle to a totem) btw sorry i don't know the names I play in french so I forget sometimes english names.
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Im well aware of the change to ds. My point is it still has the same impact on me as a killer when i down you coming off hook. The only thing thats changed is if i see you on a gen after recently coming off a hook im not worried about it.
Noed most of the time only gets you 1 down, smart survivors just leave
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Uh did you mean to comment to someone else? I posted a screen shot of someone saying Counterforce removes NOED, thought it was funny with it being posted 2 days before a post complaining about NOED.
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Do Bones.
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