http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let's Think Outside the Box!
Imagine buffing a perk like Lightweight to Counter Spirit. Would it work?
I think there is a common misconception of what it really means to balance a game like this. I see many people, myself included, stating an issue on nerfing, buffing, or reworking a mechanic in this game. Whether it is a killer, map, perk, addon or even an item I think it's safe to say the bigger issue is understanding why it should be changed. Understanding why its hard to change aspects to this game is important. This game has so many different moving parts it's not so simple with quick fixes. And if we are a little more knowledgeable of this reality it would help our "complaining" to actually hold a little more weight.
Here's a great example... People say, "Spirit Needs Nerfed!" Okay but is the issue here that she needs nerfed? Or does something else need to be buffed? Or take the perk lightweight for example. This perk could actually be a great counter to spirit if the scratch marks were to disappear faster. But you wouldn't see a discussion post saying, "Buff Lightweight to counter spirit!" I mean I'd be shocked if I started seeing other perspectives like this in the community.
Overall what I am saying is why not perhaps balance the game in other areas that could be lacking to balance the overall game? Just imagine if we thought outside of the box and focused less on the black and white. I'm not saying buffing weak tossed aside perks and or killers is the only answer. Oftentimes everyone thinks just nerf or buff something and it'll get better. So what happens to all the other moving parts of this game that rarely get talked about? So imagine if all the Developers are reading is, "Nerf Spirit!" "Spirit Broken!" etcetera... What happens is Spirit gets nerfed while Perks like Lightweight stay on the shelf. There is a clear definitive difference between what is used and left gathering dust.
Comments
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Please note this is not a spirit discussion. I just used it as an example. Nor is this a conversation solemnly on lightweight. I would like the conversation to focus on other topics related to Nerfing, buffing, and reworking. Think outside the box please!
Post edited by TwitchyMike on2 -
The only "nerf" she needs is a way for the survivor shes chasing to be able to tell when shes fazing. Thats it. I dont play spirit btw, like ever. I just dont find her oppressive in chase except in that one small thing it adds to much. It just needs a small animation or something.
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Like I said I am not discrediting what anyone is saying or how they feel on a topic. I am simply trying to get people to think a little more outside the box. I edited my original post to explain that just now.
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The thing it actually *is* the issue. The problem is that BHVRs way of dealing with these issues is through perks and minor tweaks that don't actually address the real problem (look at Freddy, that changed nothing of his original gameplay, or the upcoming trickster buff)
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I play 3 or 4 times more survivor than killer and I can tell you without a doubt that spirit is fine. It's mediocre survivors that refuse to learn or change how they play that think she's OP and needs a need. Even the data shows she's only slightly above the average when it comes to average kills for killers.
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I'd rather they fix the actual problem and not just slap another band aid on it.
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Dude you could have 20 hrs total play time of which 16 as survivor making it "4 times more than killer" how is that validating your opinion at all?
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The issue with Spirit is simply that survivors don´t want to adapt their build/playstyle. Spirit is perfectly fine, but will sooner or later receive a nerf, due to survivor complaints.
Once the nerf goes through, the new mmr will probably be live. Which leaves very little breathing room for high skill SWF teams, which will only get matches against Nurse. 24/7 because there is no other killer left that can perform on that skill level. This includes very long queues for said players.
Now regarding the Stridor nerf, it just turns a mediocre perk (because lets face it, no one uses Stridor on any other killer than Spirit) into a trash perk. Which results in Spirit mains switching Stridor for far superior tracking perks like Nurse Calling or Bloodhound. Causing her kill rate to go up and resulting in the above mentioned Spirit nerf.
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at first I thought iron will was fine but then I started to think you're probably gonna see almost every survivor run it if the stridor nerf goes live. I don't know how I feel it might be very problematic.
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Iron Will is one of the most powerful Survivor perks in existance. We´ll see more use of this perk.
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All I know is they better not touch spirit cause if they do, survivor queue times are gonna skyrocket.
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No, no they won't.
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You really never know. Eventually the game is going to run out of new players to attract and all of the veterans that got tired of nerf after nerf in order to appeal to the lowest skill level of survivor will have long since moved on.
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So that is why I said this isn't a spirit conversation. Because the issue isn't spirit it is the overall lacking of other areas in the game. I am not even saying that fixing perks that are on the shelf is the only answer. But as a whole imagine if the developers focused on areas that are underwhelmingly under powered as opposed to just nerfing the strongest mechanic. Cause again nerfing spirit doesn't fix a perk like lightweight or the twins or anything else that is gonna sit on the shelf for a while.
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I wouldn't be against buffing unused perks, at all. But to what avail? Pretty much all of the players will still keep using the same perks anyway, because they are easy. You will still keep seeing DH, DS, BT on survivor side, and you will still keep seeing perks that play the game in the killer's stead, on killer side (BBQ, Ruin, NOED). With regards to Spirit, she IS the problem, and you should be able to counter every single killer, no exceptions, even without a single perk. You can't do that against a Spirit even with the best perks, let alone without them.
People are used to throw themselves at th easier stuff. That's why you saw so many Spirit/Freddy players, that's why Ash is R6's most picked attacker, that's why people camp and tunnel, or why you always see people using the same weapon in games like Call of Duty. And sadly, that is not something you can change. Unless you PUNISH camping and tunneling, which people refuse to accept. But that is another matter. The point is, even if they were to buff other perks, why would people use something that isn't easier than what they are already using? They wouldn't. Save, perhaps, to give it a single try.
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Nah, Spirit isn´t the problem. She just has a different counter that most killers and survivors don´t like to change their running in circles playstyle.
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yes, yes they will.
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Using one thing to counter another is absolute fetid, steaming bullshite of the highest order. You shouldn't be mega ######### just because you didn't equip the right perk or bring the right item, or becuase the survivors did happen to equip the right perk or bring the right item.
There is no discussion to be had. If the basekit is the problem, that's where the solution has to be implemented or else it's merely a solution in hindsight. Everything else is just a bandaid, one that's unfortunately the Devs favourite tool. Look at NOED Vs solo's - instead of addressing the problem, they buffed a different perk. Wow. Such good thinking. Look at camping - instead of fixing the problem, they added a perk. Wow. Such good thinking. Look at bad early games - instead of fixing the problem, they added a perk. Wow.
Such good thinking.
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Basically this. Every Killer should be designed to feel fair and fun for both sides without the use of perks. Killers should be designed to be strong without perks and countered without perks.
The only way to change this would be to let Survivors know which Killer they are up against in a lobby, allowing them to stack perks against them. This opens up a can of issues, however, and is not a particularly valid option.
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Perks shouldnt be used to balance out other perks or powers or mechanics.
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I'm not saying that at all actually... I guess it's my fault for not reiterating more... It was just one example to get people to think outside of the box. The whole purpose of this conversation is to think outside of the box... I am not saying fixing a perk like Lightweight would be the one single solution to defeating spirit. I am not saying changing one single thing will fix something else entirely. It's actually the opposite of what I am saying. The way of thinking I have noticed is everyone thinks the quick fix on one thing will fix everything. But actually that is what is wrong here. Even just Nerfing spirit or balancing her kit won't fix the overall balancing issue with this game. To truly balance a game like this which as hard as it is... Is going to take time. Now most of us are aware of such a concept in video games. And of course it is nearly impossible to perfectly balance any game.
This is a good way to look at the balance in this game. Look at this game in the three categories I created. For the example I'll set the three categories as follows. Lets try this little exercise I just came up with. For the sake of consistency I will use the spirit and lightweight example example. Along with a new example for the 2nd one just made for the purpose of this next exercise.
- Over Powered (OP) Areas of the game that's claimed or defined as too strong or rigged etc. etcetera... (Spirit)
- Balance Powered (BP) Areas of the game no one complains about or no reasons to change it. etc. etcetera... (Toolboxes)
- Under Powered (UP) Areas of the game that are clearly defined as weak or never used etc. etcetera... (Lightweight)
- Now imagine one thing you can come up with for all three categories. Now what I want you to do next, once you have picked one for each category, is now tell me if you can balance all three of the example you came up with just by changing one of them. Well that's easy.. you can't. You would have to change more than ONE thing to balance all three of them. Make sense? *Note everyone has a different opinion so that is to be expected here. Again my examples are posted.
Post edited by TwitchyMike on0 -
Expected such a reply, not gonna argue. Free to think otherwise. But that's just how things are.
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Exactly! Spirit isn´t the problem. Its just survivors unwillingness to adapt. Like it happend with Undying, which was nerfed because survivors couldn´t handle doing totems.
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Okay I edited my most recent reply please refer to the above information for more clarity. Since I am not sure my original post was completely understood... Perhaps I should reword the title of this conversation lol 😅. Maybe I should say... Spirit isn't the Sole Issue. I simply used two things in this game I clearly noticed were polar opposites of each other in terms of balance.
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Guess I didn't quite explain it properly, it's actually the other way around.
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Thank you Tsulan! That is a great example. Survivors can't handle totems? Okay nerf undying. But guess what?! Now we have a new perk from Jill Valentine that is a totem destroyer lol xD... So should we not buff Undying again? What they should have done to begin with is create a perk, which they just did, that creates a counter to undying. Or at the time before hand, buff Small Game. Now here's a hell of an idea guys... So now we have multiple perks for hunting down totems. But will survivors run all three of these perks to counter totems? Probably not...
There are already tons of situational perks in this game... So why would my example of lightweight to counter spirit be so far fetched? It wouldn't just counter spirit of course... but the perk would most certainly be used more if balanced correctly.
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Regardless no one is right or wrong it's just a different perspective is all I am looking for you know?
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I think (or hope) the devs tested the water with Undying. They wanted to see how the community reacts to a perk that would turn totems into something almost obligatory. Obviously it didn´t went very well. As most survivors completely rejected changing their builds or their playstyle.
People complained about Undying Ruin gifting free wins, when it was actually the opposite. Because killers had to constantly switch targets, couldn´t tunnel or camp. Because they wouldn´t have gotten any benefit out of the perk combo. One would think that this was a healthy change, because the perk combo reduced camping and tunneling. Both things survivors have been complaining about forever. But instead survivors didn´t like the idea of doing totems.
Which is just sad. As i, had a blast running totem detection perks and cleansing totems (remember a match where i cleansed 5 lit totems, while my teammates took turns on the hook).
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Oh you exlained it perfectly. The phrase "this is just how things are" is just an example on how people just don´t want change. As this phrase could be applied to many other things in the world.
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Without taking sides which I am not here... I just didn't want there to be any confusion about this topic. @Tsulan Are you gonna try the exercise I posted?
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They dont want to adapt their playstyle, because... drumroll... they dont want to.
It is a game, and it should be enjoyable. If it would be enjoyable to play against a Spirit, nobody would complain.
On top of that, teach them how to play against Spirit, or even better.. show them and challange Scott Jund. Lets see how it ends this time.
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I mean I like a challenge. And I think a video game should push gamers to change things up. Otherwise things get stale after a while you know? Just elevates the skill curve in this game is all it does.
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I see it more as an example of how only SOME people are actually willing to state the obvious truth, while others just morph it to suit their purposes. To each their own.
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I like challanges too and thats why i dont play Spirit anymore (no challange in public match, almost always 4K) and instead weak(er) killer.
When i play survivor the Spirit is not my most hated killer, but i see why she is for many. It is a game for everyone, not only for myself, so i stay on the side of people who want her changed.
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How it ends this time? I'm afraid I never played against Scott. I played once with True, but that's about it. No big streamers I played with or against.
Now regarding to the fun part. Most killers don't enjoy playing against SWF. Especially when they gen rush.
Even more, I'd say there are far more killers that are frustrated because of SWF and gen rushes than there are survivors being frustrated about playing against Spirit.
You know what the "it's not fun to play against her" reminds me off? Original Freddy release. A killer who was weak af, but who got a nerf just 1 week after his release, because survivors complained that he's not fun to play against.
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Ok this is purely subjective. As I barely watch any streamers and therefore only can judge from the Spirits I faced.
Starting point is, that I rarely see any Spirits. Now the few that I see either perform normal like other killers, nothing special with the speed they down someone, or they stomp because survivors instantly threw themselves at her and suicide on the hook. That's why I don't consider her OP.
Before you ask, I'm a red rank solo survivor. So I'm not really facing noob killers.
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I admit I totally missed the exercise post.
Ok I'll try.
OP: there is no OP killer. Because if there would be, then he would be played 24/7. There also isn't any OP perk (nor for survivors nor for killers) that I can think of right now.
Balanced: meta perks are surprisingly balanced.
Underpowered: tons of perks that don't see any usage like Monstrous shrine, fire up, botany knowledge, wake up, etc.
My idea for some buffs would be:
- Botany Knowledge = increase self healing speed by at least double amount as it is now. Idea behind it is, that if a survivor wants to use 2 perks (BK + SC) to heal as fast as pre healing nerf SC, then he should be able to.
- Wake up = should reduce the opening time drastically. Maybe 3 or 4 seconds. Why? It's a dead perk for most of the game. It should make a difference during the endgame.
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Ya if I am being honest I just used mine as a base example. I personally see more underpowered features in this game than over powered features. Which is kind of why I made the post to begin with. But I respect everyone's opinion on the matter. So even though I personally believe we need more buffing on weak killers and perks most people are wanting a character nerfed like Spirit. Which again if all we focus on is nerfing things in this game we will never get perks like the ones you mentioned fixed. Or killers no one will ever use because they can't hold a candle to other killers.
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It is a challange he set for everyone "Come at me and show me your counterplay against Spirit". So far, nobody came up with something good. Even a tournament player tried his best and it ended pretty much the same. Drop the pallet right away and hope you are lucky. People dont like this playstyle.
Yes, SWF can be very painful. But what has this to do with Spirit? That SWF also need changes is nothing new.
Welp, Spirit is around for ages and people complaining about her pretty much since her release (the one way or the other). Its not that she is new to the game and people dont know how to handle her.
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Not exactly. Because it's a 1v4 game. Where the 1 player should be as strong as the 4 players. Instead people push for a 1v1 balance by wanting longer chases and more second chance perks that help solos.
In short, killer can never win, because he can only chase 1 person.
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I brought up SWF because of the fun part you mentioned.
If Spirit was the unbeatable killing machine everyone claims, wouldn't her kill rate and especially her pick rate be much higher? People like to win, so there would be more people maining her.
Instead I see a lot of people running straight to her, to get downed and then suicide. Or right now simply DC.
I mained old Freddy and I can't count the times he was called OP or pay2win after a match. When in fact he was one of the weaker killers. So the claims of something being OP, doesn't make it OP.
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I'm red rank too, but ranks hardly mean anything other than time played, in this game. The only consequence is that you're going to find more sweaty players the higher you get. But even then, a 4k or an escape doesn't mean your opponent is skilled. Survivors who can only play in full premades are not skilled, as much as killers who use broken characters and tunnel/camp. There is hardly ever any skill involved in this game. The way most killers play, including Spirits, would be feasible even to my grandmother's grandmother. As a survivor, you need to learn how to loop. And that is somewhat difficult at the very beginning, but once you got the hang of it, it's easy as pie, as well.
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SWF can be discussed aswell.
Spirit is not unbeatable, but she is too powerful, especially in a public match. Her strenght has nothing to do with popularity. People play the killer they enjoy and not the best killer. Nurse was extremly overpowered before the nerf, and she was not even the most popular killer back then.
When they suciced, its a good indicator, that they dont want to play against her, which brings me back to the enjoy topic.
Old Freddy? Are we talking about the first version or after the rework? If its about the After Rework Version.. He was for many overpowered and their claim was supported by stats (he had the highest winrate). When the majority agrees he is overpowered and stats confirm that, he might have actually been. I personally would not necessary agree, but he was in a public match very oppressive. Maybe a little bit to much.
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Old Freddy. The one that had to put everyone to sleep, then wait 7 seconds, before he could interact with them. Thats the Freddy i´m talking about. The one which had among the lowest kill rate. The Freddy most people complained about, because they didn´t find it fun to play against him and therefore suicided or disconnected against him.
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Old Freddy got buffed quite a bit because the majority of players thought he was too weak. Has nothing to do with people complaining he was so powerful. And i never had the issue when i played him, can not remember people dcing or suicide when they saw OG Freddy.
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Old Freddy was nerfed 1 week after his release, because so many survivors complained that he´s not fun to play against. They also disconnected and suicided against him, which drove the kill rate up during the first week.
He got a rework (buff) after 2 years.
So again, people disconnecting, suiciding or complaining about a killer is NO indicator on the killers strength. It wasn´t an indicator back then and it still isn´t an indicator.
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Wake up! 3 already shaves off 3 seconds on opening. If you want to buff it then it could be so your opening speed is doubled i.e. 10 seconds when there are no debuffs. It would still be very situational, but it'd make sense now considering killer endgame builds are about to become more viable with No way out getting a buff soon.
I like your suggestion for Botany, as long as the bonus for healing others stays the same as the current one.
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Nerfing a killer 2 weeks after release is for sure not a good ballance move (unless it is very obvious) but like i said, Spirit is tormenting survivors since years so the community has enough data and experience to judge.
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