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Why Dead Hard is one of the best designed Survivor perks
Dead Hard is probably one of the best designed perks for Survivors in the entire game. The reason I say this is because it requires the most interaction and precise timing of all of the perks in the survivors arsenal as well as giving the survivor plenty of opportunities to use it. It requires you to juggle running, looking behind you and judging when to use it at the most optimal time. If you use it well as a survivor, you get the most satisfaction because the timing to use it is so precise. It also gives Killers the change to interact with the survivor by attempting to have the survivor use it at a bad time. Plus it gives plenty of opportunity to use it badly.
It is buggy because of lag and a lot of times it causes the survivor to end of on the ground, exhausted and the code can be improved. I do think Sprint Burst and Lithe are better perks and will always use Sprint Burst over Dead Hard, however I appreciate the Devs design of Dead Hard and will play it every once in a while. (Because of tunneling, Sprint Burst is the best perk to prevent that and I usually wind up regretting not running Sprint Burst).
I think flashbang is another very well designed perk that allows Survivors the ability to affect the outcome of the game with a perk that is more skill based and usefulness than other perks. Distraction is another well designed perk.
Smash Hit, although it is another perk that requires skill to get the most from it, has the major downfall of it not have enough opportunities to use it. If it gave you 2 seconds of speed after throwing a pallet and 4 seconds of speed after stunning a killer with a pallet, I think it would be better designed because it gives more opportunities for use.
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This sounds like a copypasta, lol.
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Dead Hard is probably one of the best designed perks for Survivors in the entire game. The reason I say this is because it requires the most interaction and precise timing of all of the perks in the survivors arsenal as well as giving the survivor plenty of opportunities to use it. It requires you to juggle running, looking behind you and judging when to use it at the most optimal time. If you use it well as a survivor, you get the most satisfaction because the timing to use it is so precise. It also gives Killers the change to interact with the survivor by attempting to have the survivor use it at a bad time. Plus it gives plenty of opportunity to use it badly.
It is buggy because of lag and a lot of times it causes the survivor to end of on the ground, exhausted and the code can be improved. I do think Sprint Burst and Lithe are better perks and will always use Sprint Burst over Dead Hard, however I appreciate the Devs design of Dead Hard and will play it every once in a while. (Because of tunneling, Sprint Burst is the best perk to prevent that and I usually wind up regretting not running Sprint Burst).
I think flashbang is another very well designed perk that allows Survivors the ability to affect the outcome of the game with a perk that is more skill based and usefulness than other perks. Distraction is another well designed perk.
Smash Hit, although it is another perk that requires skill to get the most from it, has the major downfall of it not have enough opportunities to use it. If it gave you 2 seconds of speed after throwing a pallet and 4 seconds of speed after stunning a killer with a pallet, I think it would be better designed because it gives more opportunities for use.
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No it’s not. There’s no counterplay from the killer side if they use it for distance. I absolutely hate the feeling when I mind game a survivor and they press one button to completely undo their bad play. It’s a very terribly designed perk because of that.
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Unless you use it for distance, which removes any and all interactivity at all.
I personally don't really mind DH, but saying it's "one of the best" is disingenuous and just shows a bias towards the perk. The main use of DH, that of dodging a hit, barely works most of the time. If that worked, I might agree that it's a well designed perk.
DH for distance is uncounterable, and as long as you have a basic understanding of loops is very easy to do. It removes any interactivity of the killer.
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DH to dodge a hit? Perfectly fine, the distance is a reward.
DH for distance? Dumb as ######### and completely brain dead.
Perhaps it should be reworked to provide no speed boost/dash, but rather a small period of invulnerability that, if it successfully causes the killer to whiff, makes the miss cooldown longer. This removes the DH for distance, rewards for dodging better, and allows a useless perk (unrelenting) to actually have a use in counterplay.
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its the same bullshit with noed
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Noed has counterplay, do bones. Even if you dont completely clean them all you know where it isnt now.
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I wouldn't call a perk that rewards bad play / mistake and (unless used in the open) has 0 counterplay a "one of the best designed Survivor perks".
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I hate this idea that a perk needs to be 100 percent counter-able otherwise it's not balanced. Perks, whether for killer or survivor offers a benefit to that player. The benefit can certainly be oversized, but whether or not it can be countered by their opponent simply does not matter. Stop bringing that up as an argument.
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What is this "Distraction" perk? Diversion? Deception? Red Herring?
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I think this is more a problem with the loops themselves, than a problem with Dead Hard.
Most Jungle Gyms are pretty survivor sided, there is almost no mind-gaming, provided the survivor knows how to run them.
I think the game as a whole would be much better if the Jungle Gyms individually were much weaker, but more of them on a map, so there are less dead-zones. And I mean it in a way where there is CONSTANT mind-gaming and checking required from BOTH SIDES. Not drop the pallet and you are safe, more drop the pallet and you can mindgame. Like Midwich or Hawkins.
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It rewards good play because the survivor is playing with the intention of using Dead Hard.
Like a person who waits for the killer to get close before Sprint Bursting away is playing with the intention of using Sprint Burst.
0 counter play? You can bait it out. I swear there's a lot of really low level killers in here.
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I really dislike the E
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Look at it this way though - it fails constantly. Literally constantly. I have game after game after game where I'm not once able to use it because I'm exhausted on the ground. I don't care that killers don't like it being used for distance when it does not work more than half of the time.
What killers perks just regularly do not work? I'm not a killer main so I don't know. I can't imagine if BBQ didn't work as often as DH fails. Killers would lost their minds.
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There's also no counterplay to pop, imagine we working on gen and killer comes and deletes half of our progress the same way is with dead hard not everything needs counterplay period
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Ah yes let me bait out DH for distance.
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i can’t wait until tomorrow when we will literally get this same exact thread again! this forum is literally an echo chamber of green rank killers that don’t know how to counter it and survivors that dead hard into walls
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You wont be exhausted on the ground if you use it for distance. So that doesn't excuse the DH for distance portion which is what people have a problem with.
You're saying because DH to doge has some issues DH for distance is fine when they're two different use cases with different problems, a.k.a. you're making a strawman argument.
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How about not getting hooked, Repressed Alliance, and Blast Mine? At least there’s something to do against PGTW and requires the killer to put the effort in to using the perk. Dead Hard requires no skill or effort and is a free second chance crutch.
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repressed alliance 100% counters pop unless the killer hooked a survivor directly beside the gen in question(45 seconds of pop, 30 seconds of repressed alliance)
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Sorry but dead hard is most skillful exhaustion perk also pop requires nothing but basic killer gameplay you do anyway and in exchange u get rewarded by deleting half survivors progress just for doing basic objective
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There's no counter play to Lithe or Balanced Landing for distance and they give you 3 seconds instead of 1. So obviously this isn't an argument.
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Both of those require specific tiles/resources and cannot be used on demand
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Also blast mine doesn't remove your interaction with gen it just stuns you no change, repressed alliance nobody runs and it last less than pop anyway
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Blast mine does actually stop a kick from going off, you have to wait ~5 seconds and then you can kick again. It's a meme to leave a gen at 99% with blast mine, let a killer come up to kick it(with pop), it explodes in his face, you run up and tap it and the gen completes.
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Blast mine doesn't remove pop or it's use it just stops you for few seconds to interract with gen, also let's not forget tinkerer plus pop combo, tinkerer as well has no counterplay yet nobody complains about it
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A) We're not talking about those perks, hello whataboutism. So Obviously this isn't an argument.
B) Those require specific tiles or a cost associated to running them. SB you have to walk around or use it and risk it not being up when you need it for example. Lithe might require you to drop a pallet and outplay the killer to get good use out of it. You risk getting a map you'll have a very difficult time getting use out of balanced landing as well as planning a good path to get to an area to use it. DH is just "get hit, now you can E to outplay". So there's no cost, risk. or resource being used nor any particular pathing you have to worry about or plan.
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Tons of people complain about tinkerer, however on most maps outside of a few killers(spirit, blight, nurse, billy) tinkerer is not that good. Similar to stridor with nurse its not like you see tinkerer on every killer, or at the very least the cast outside of those ones I mentioned can't do anything if a tinkerer notification goes off and they are on the other side of the map and they only have 115%/110% movespeed.
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Alright I'll stop this right here whatever I say you'll say it's not good I can say dead hard is not good but am I right? No I'm not so I won't say it to back up my argument my point is not everything needs counter play never implied dead hard isn't strong, tinkerer has no counter (idc if it's good doesn't change fact it has no counter play) stridor had no counter till now, nurses calling has no counter play unless u stay injured whole ass match, I'm all ears has no counter etc etc no matter how good or bad all those perks are they have no counter and they don't need to because they are formed to help killer win not for survs to counter it with another perk or mechanic
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Tinkerer - you're correct
Stridor - who ran this outside of spirit? You can delete this perk as far as I'm concerned as it doesn't even fix spirits isssues(what people hate her for) and it just adds another perk to the trashcan perk pile
Nurses calling - Don't heal inside the killers TR?
Im all ears - you're correct in most cases, the counterplay is don't do rushed actions but then you are gonna eat an m1 hit if the killer is chasing you
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So you obviously feel Dead Hard should be nerfed. What makes Dead Hard need a nerf?
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Alright so we can agree certain perks on both sides has no counter and don't need one? Because they are made to help you win at least in my opinion not for opposite side to completely delete your perk slots
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Absolutely, but there is a much larger question about the game as a whole behind this conversation. When a good team of swf can pound out gens in <4 min times and there are a large number of tiles that take x seconds for a killer to catch up to a survivor(whether that be holding w for distance or looping) and killers need 12 hooks how does the math work out where a good killer has a chance against a good survivor team that results in anything beyond a 1k? Unless at high level it's just 1k from camping/proxy camping and run noed and hope people are altruistic.
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Explain how a perk that undos your mistake by pressing a button requires skill?
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Well in swf it's either win or lose because they have one advantage called free kindred and object of obsession aka voice call so I agree about that part
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If you are playing with Dead Hard with the intention of using it the way it's designed, then that isn't a mistake, is it.
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Needs to be timed perfectly, needs to be used correctly or you're ######### up badly and most important it requires a lot of mindgame where you need to predict if/when killer will swing or not
Unlike all other exhaustion perks that works on themselves basically aka vault/run/jump from height
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In short, its too strong for how easy and readily available it is to use and while lacking counterplay.
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Yeah it’s intended to be used to dodge a hit but people use it to gain distance which is what makes the perk strong.
It does not need to be timed perfectly at all as long as you use it for distance. As long as you got the basics of looping down, all you need to learn is pressing a button and aiming for safety. Once you do that one simple thing, you have a second chance crutch that punishes killers for doing the right read.
That’s why I don’t run that perk at all, because I feel like cheap using it. I would even go as far as to say Spirit requires more skill than Dead Hard for distance because at least Spirit requires good hearing and game sense.
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yeah dead hard takes less than pop. fail to loop the killer let me just press e to completely undo my mistake. with pop you have to actually do your objective to get it.
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Does Tinkerer have counterplay. Does Open Handed have counterplay. Does Plunders Instinct have counterplay.
"Lacking Counterplay" is obviously not an argument.
Monstrous Shrine is too strong. See how just saying something doesn't necessarily make it true.
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Not everything needs counterplay per se that's just one of the balancing points, it depends on the strength of the effect and what is needed to get it as well. Some perks have enough restrictions or their use case is specific enough where its not needed. Also this is more whataboutism, js.
Is DH strong enough that counterplay can be a valid requirement? Yes as it directly effects the chase and can lead to a huge increase in chase time.
Is DH difficult enough to achieve its requirements such that equals its benefits and/or is it hard enough to make use out of to make it balanced? No as its requirement is basically "play the game" and it usage case is "press E".
Tinkerer requires the gen to be almost done and for the killer to leave whatever they're doing to make use out of it. Open handed requires other perks to be of any use and does nothing on its own. Plunders requires you to take time out of your match to find a chest and roll the RNG that you get something you want.
Additionally, for tinkerer you can use it against the killer once you know they have it. Ok gens at 70% leave it, make the killer waste their time and go back once they leave.
What do you do if you know the survivor has Dead Hard? You need to injure them and you need to chase them, both of which work right into the perks favor.
These are some of the reasons the perk is unbalanced. "Lacking counterplay" is an argument as that's one of the balancing points and its not meeting the other ones either. See how saying something "isn't an argument" just because you disagree doesn't make it true?
I didn't just say "lacking counterplay" I also said its too easy to use for how strong it is and its lacking any real requirement as well..
I guess Spirit is fine to you since no counterplay isn't an issue apparently?
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Not everything needs counterplay per se that's just one of the balancing points, it depends on the strength of the effect and what is needed to get it as well. Some perks have enough restrictions or their use case is specific enough where its not needed. Also this is more whataboutism, js.
"Counter Play" is not a balancing point for DBD, otherwise every perk would have counterplay. As I just pointed out, not every perk has counterplay.
How do you counterplay Open Handed as a Killer.
How do you counterplay Kindred as a Killer.
How do you counterplay Plunder's Instinct as a Killer.
This isn't what-aboutisms, these are direct examples of perks without counterplay.
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That's your opinion and obviously you're biashed towards it so you can't see other side of medal and that's fine agree to disagree
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It is a balancing point, its just not a balancing point for everything. As I stated, counterplay is one route we could fix with the perk, we could also change the conditions for its use requirement or rework the perk altogether.
It is whataboutism, "what about these other perks". The perk in question is Dead Hard not open handed.
Again, what do you do about DH for distance? Why is it fine in its current state? What about the perk makes it balanced? People have given multiple reasons why its not, what are some reasons that it is?
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I actually play both sides at red ranks pretty equally. I understand that Dead Hard is a problem because whenever I use it correctly I know I robbed the killer of a successful mind game and it gets frustrating when it happens to me as killer.
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What are you smoking? Because whatever it is I need that. Stuff seems pretty potent
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Deadhard is unironically fine, it prevents killers getting two hits in a row due to deadzones and long stretches with no loops. (During the early game where those deadzones haven't been earned by the killer)
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Dead Hard is probably one of the best designed perks for Survivors in the entire game. The reason I say this is because it requires the most interaction and precise timing of all of the perks in the survivors arsenal as well as giving the survivor plenty of opportunities to use it. It requires you to juggle running, looking behind you and judging when to use it at the most optimal time. If you use it well as a survivor, you get the most satisfaction because the timing to use it is so precise. It also gives Killers the change to interact with the survivor by attempting to have the survivor use it at a bad time. Plus it gives plenty of opportunity to use it badly.
It is buggy because of lag and a lot of times it causes the survivor to end of on the ground, exhausted and the code can be improved. I do think Sprint Burst and Lithe are better perks and will always use Sprint Burst over Dead Hard, however I appreciate the Devs design of Dead Hard and will play it every once in a while. (Because of tunneling, Sprint Burst is the best perk to prevent that and I usually wind up regretting not running Sprint Burst).
I think flashbang is another very well designed perk that allows Survivors the ability to affect the outcome of the game with a perk that is more skill based and usefulness than other perks. Distraction is another well designed perk.
Smash Hit, although it is another perk that requires skill to get the most from it, has the major downfall of it not have enough opportunities to use it. If it gave you 2 seconds of speed after throwing a pallet and 4 seconds of speed after stunning a killer with a pallet, I think it would be better designed because it gives more opportunities for use.
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So, does anyone who argues for this sort of thing ever actually use the perk properly, or do we have a 2019 "DS only effects tunneling" situation on our hands?
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