Nerf survive with friends (survivor prospective)
why Is it that the ranking system is still not good? Survive with friends.
the ranking and matchmaking is never going to be on point if there are people (with no skill, may add?) whom exclusively play online survive with friends. YOU DO NOT NEED SKILL TO PLAY ON COMMS; and for the regular survivor gameplay (in that you won’t always have your team available to play) which eventually does involve surviving on your own-this is detrimental.
there are survivors at high ranks (who don’t even live up to that rank on their own) and it is unfortunate for actual skilled solo queue survivor to have to be matched with people who don’t even know how to play on their own.
I have been fluctuating from rank 6-9 and it sucks because lately I lose all my matches (I am the last one to die most of the time) while some of the worst players that literally throw the match or disconnect because they don’t have their safety nets are in red ranks.
like, how?!?!?!
I had an idea on how to nerf survive with friends. Simple. Only allow every second or third trial results to actually have rank progression.
just that. There’s no added objectives. Blood point gain stays the same. Just don’t count every single trial of each individual in the SWF. If they are going to have an unfair advantage they should have to work twice as hard to rank up.
i hope that would make matchmaking more accurate. As someone who is exclusively a survivor I’m tired of playing matches with people who make the most stupidest decisions. Lose because I am the last one standing. And see at match results the purple-green rank guy (me) outlived all the red ranks. Makes no sense
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I think that's a pretty bad idea. If it takes that team longer to rank up, then they'll likely keep getting placed against lower rank killers, who are less likely to be able to deal with them. This as opposed to them rocketing up to red ranks, where there's plenty of killer players that will give them a way more fair challenge.
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How would they prove it anyway? Just because you join someone in a match doesn’t mean you’re communicating with them.
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Well that's a bad idea.
And just because you're in a swf group doesn't mean you're actually good. Not every swf are tryhatds who want to stomp the killer over coms.
And not allowing them to rank up would only make the matchmaking process even worse than it is right now. If they're better as a swf, as you say, then they deserve to rank up and play against better killers, not remain low ranks to play against potatoes
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You are going kinda wrong way. You don't want them to play longer against weaker killers. It would be better to make them rank faster, so better killers try to handle them.
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Well for starters; 1) that is the point. Eventually they will want to get out of the grey ranks when they feel trials are not challenging; i dont know behavior can start offering rewards when ranking season end. That would be the primary motivation for ranking up. 2) with everything said above some swfs (specifically the ppl that do want to rank up and are not swfing to be trolls or d*@$#3 bags) this will give thise survivors more reason to try solo play and (dare i say it?) Actually learning how to play skillfully.
Not discrediting you, it will start off like that but eventually they will reach a plateau.
Another idea is to have normal progression until they get passed grey ranks. Kind of like how tourney mode is in naruto shinobi striker.
Or a separate rank for swf and solo queue. It makes sense to me. if a player is only skillful dependant on if they are in a swf with comms then that level of exp/skill is opposite of if a player can be skillful surviving on solo queue (in laymen terms for anyone fixated on what they want in their narrow mind) surviving as a team on solo queue is completely diff then surviving as a swf.
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you're being hard headed. Its not a matter of proving if there are comms. Swf originally started as a side option. It was never supposed to be the primary way of playing the game.
ACTUALLY looking for balance in a game (as opposed to nerfing good survivor perks because ppl abuse them on swf).
Not only makes gameplay fairer for killers, but it makes it fairer for solo queue survivors; and well in the long run swf players as well because if they want to rank up they will literally have no choice then to play solo queue and actually learn how to play the game and dare i say it learn to play better.
Post edited by HEXSLAYER999 on0 -
I answered this in my first response today^.
You are right, but im sure there is a way to tweak that as referenced in other games like i mentioned in my first post from today.
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There should be a ranking system for playing swf and for playing solo.
When swf players eventually do go play solo queue at higher ranks which happens VERY often (as mentioned above: swf was created as another gameplay mode), ppl do eventually have to play solo queue. They end up playing as a sack of potatoes.
Aside from the actual skill curve; due to constant swf toxicity, it feels like killers are getting buffed (in order to make them better at playing swfs) which makes them op against solo queue players
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Game becomes super unbalanced.
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SWF should just be a separate queue. I know it would split the player base but then the devs would see how hated SWF is.
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Well it actually is a separate game mode, so why not?
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In the long run I feel like it would be better for the devs anyways. Less reason to constantly have to buff/debuff and balance killers/perks/etc.
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They could even make nightmare mode for killers and just call it kill friends mode.
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Yeah. It drives me nuts when people claim 'SWF does not do much!'
That claim is actively ignoring the fact that this game is built around Survivors lacking information:
- Not knowing who the Killer is at first (Not knowing to avoid Trapper's traps until you see him. This stops happening in a SWF group; one person sees Trapper, everyone knows to watch their feet.)
- Totems. In a non-SWF; one person seeing your totem means one person knows where it is. In a SWF; one person seeing a totem means everyone in the SWF knows where it is.
- Camping/Perks like Insidious. No SWF: Can hide near the hook & ambush. SWF: "The Killer went behind the wall to my left and stopped. Be careful there.'
- Gens, or saving your friend? No SWF: 'I don't know if anyone else is going for the save!' (Three people end up near the hook, meaning no one is on gens). SWF: 'This gen is at 70%, so I'll keep working while you go save the guy on the hook.' (The Killer has now lost the pressure hooking a Survivor is supposed to give him.)
- End Game Risks. Non-SWF: I COULD go save that guy, but if I get downed afterwards; will he save me? Should I just leave? SWF: I will save you, so keep struggling. And I know our third SWF buddy will save me if I go down.
And this is not listing each and every Killer power or perk that is rendered useless, or close to useless, when SWFs have voice comms.
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Kindred is useless. Swf does not need kindred. While solo queue survivor has to waste a perk slot just so that if that one survivor gets hooked everyone can see the aura.
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You are really putting way too much stock into how tryhard these bully squads are. They don't want a fair match and they don't care about ranking up, they just want to make some killer's life miserable, and this idea helps them do exactly that. This idea just makes lower level killers more likely to get matched into steeply uphill trials.
I don't even think Swiffering needs a solution, per se, but if it did, this would definitely not be it.
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It can't be done.
What would you do, when you have only 2/3 players? and how would you decide which killer will face soloq only and who will face SWF?
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I disagree with your fundamental position of fixing the swf problem in nerfing swf instead of buffing solo queue. There is a difference between swf and solo queue in terms of strength and ive yet to see a valid argument to the contrary.
So how to fix it well there seems to be 2 main methods buff solo queue or nerf swf I personally fall into the camp of buffing solo queue as no amount of swf nerfing will make solo queue any less annoying for me and the only reason I'd even play survivor is just so I can play with friends and thats the only way survivor is fun for me, not because it gives me a clear advantage but because I can't play killer with my friends simple as that.
By just giving survivor an in game way to properly communicate to their teammates ingame would go a long way towards this, would games get harder for killers? Yes absolutely but thats kind of the point, you want the different party sizes to be as close as possible in strength to ever have a chance of even somewhat balancing the game properly. Especially with a game with as wonky balancing as dbd.
This would also make many perks fairly useless, perks like bond, kindred, empathy and the like but again that's kind of the point these perks are already mostly useless outside of a few niches scenarios but they were mostly made with solo queue in mind and no thought to swf as they're mostly unnecessary for swf since being in a call with your mates is the best info perk in the game and it doesn't even take up a perk slot.
I am however completely open to the idea of doing a bit of both, say for instance while yes solo queue players are now able to communicate more effectively in game with randos a full swf squad will still have a higher mmr then a full team of randos with the same individual rankings. Since lets be honest you are far more likely to work together properly with people you know then people you dont.
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Read my previous comments. I did give some solutions to getting them at a rank (outside of the grey ranks where lower level killers are)
im aware of what you said as true; as well. Which is why as I also mentioned in a previous comment-the point is to offer an incentive to ranking up. In other words/in a sense, make swf less enticing to play/make learning how to play the game (you learn better by playing solo, as for survivor this game was built on surviving with the least amount of knowledge and as such playing less recklessly).
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Ppl, read the previous comments please. I am really open to actual discussion but newer ideas for this theory, not copying and pasting what I’ve already wrote before.
different games modes-different load queues. And as mentioned in a different but also previous discussion for killers who want the challenge killing swf team can be a nightmare mode (which there are a lot of killers that do like to play challenging) and calling it “kill friends”
if there are slower queue times for swf as a result; then I will reiterate, the point was to make swf (which as also mentioned above-is not the actual game mode anyways) less enticing.
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Alright, it can be done, but is super bad idea.
They would lose a lot of players, because of it. There is no way, they would do something so bad as this.
This game doesn't have that many players for it. You would just make longer queues for majority (SWF and killers who don't want to face it).
But you didn't answer most important question. How would it deal 2/3 survivor groups?
You can let soloq players search for it, but then there is kinda no point in it, right? IDK about you, but as soloq survivor I would search for games with SWF, rather then all soloq.
btw there is nightmare mode in dbd. It is called disabled crossplay....
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well this is an actual discussion now. So ok.
1) you first point is a good one, however it just further proves what I originally said. Survivor gameplay (which is the original game mode anyways) is built on survivors starting off with the least amount of knowledge.
learning to play the game that will actually builds skill because you have no choice then to play immersive, and resourcefully (as opposed to swf players, I’ve seen so many players at red ranks screw up literal whole trials because they make the most reckless decisions/choices.
the whole point of my (skill) argument you can’t say you “know or are masterful of a game” if you’re not even playing it correctly.
I would say that one suggestion you made is a good one. Solo queue can be buffed. Maybe perks that are for solo queue only. I will say I mentioned earlier making separate game queues is so much easier because you don’t have to do so much balancing
if there is a swf queue or server, devs can continue nerfing survivor and buffing killers (like they are doing now) and gameplay wise it would work, because swf does give that need for balancing the game.
but then leave solo queue as is with usually no actual need to nerf much because gameplay is as leveled as possible. Then their it is.
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Please anyone new on this discussion; read previous comments because I’m starting to sound like a broken record.
im open to actual ideas. This is a discussion, so don’t counter it with something that has already been answered
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You talked about making it easier, but separate balancing would make it way harder.
There are ways how to buff soloq, without affecting SWF much (at least not good SWF).
You could make it so:
-Survivors can see each other when someone is on hook.
Simple change of something in this game already, just kindred without killer aura and would probably help most.
-HUD icon, which shows what each survivor does (chase, totem, gen, walking).
This would take more time to do, but it is possible. I would prefer this over option where survivor use calls menu, because this would be automatic and doesn't rely on skill again.
-Show each survivors perks in lobby.
This one would be probably hardest to implement, but would help to prepare for game a lot, because you might fill roles with perks, when noone uses them. You could bring totem detection perks or BT, when you see noone uses them. On other hand when you see that 2 players are already using Inner Strenght, then it would be good idea not to use that too.
All those things are super basic call outs for SWF, so it wouldn't really change anything for them. Some people suggested Bond, which I think is really bad idea, because that is not something that avarage SWF can do, so it would buff them too.
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I stand by my view that separate is easier. When survivor perks are nerfed and killers are buffed most of the time (if not always) it is due to the bullying/toxic play style from survivors in swf.
Its extra work. If a survivor perk is released specifically to counter a specific killer behavior (and in the case of solo queue-actually be useful for a solo survive build), but then it has to be nerfed because it becomes too toxic or op when used by swfs against killers. Then eventually there are so many nerfs that playing survivor becomes too difficult regardless of actual skill level, that perks have to be buffed so that it is actually useful for solo queue-
Too much work. It's a constant back and forth of nerfing and buffing over a game mechanic that is just being abused.
At least with two different queues they can keep survivor nerfs for swf (which makes a balanced gameplay)
And omit nerfs on solo queue.
Example: decisive strike and borrowed time
In swf queue it could be as it is now active for 15 seconds after being unhooked but you lose it faster if you start performing other actions like healing or repairing; (i believe?). Its fair because an organized team can get value out of this. A solo queue team cannot get value out of that.
So... In solo queue it can be like how it was before this nerf active for like a minute i think is what it was. Or you dont lose it if you start performing other actions.
If a perk is too easily abused by swf then they only have to nerf it on swf queue. With solo queue not affected by this, perks wont become useless and wont need to be buffed up again because solo queue is still getting value from it.
I am open minded; i do think that all survivors seeing each others aura when hooked sounds good; but i dont think it would actually happen.
The survivor aspect was built on the fact that survivors are supposed to survive given the least amount of information possible. Comms by definition take that away. Besides although i like your suggestion; as mentioned above that would make a lot of survivor perks useless. Survivors would probably lose a little less then a quarter of all their perks.
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I stand by my idea. I disagree that my idea would lose players.
Swf is affecting 3 groups by the looks of it right now.
1) killers; obviously.
2) higher and mid rank survivors who are loading with survivors of the "same rank" that dont even play to that ranks skill level; as such are causing very short quick games.
3) devs who have to rework mechanics and perks because it is being abused by swf against killers but then reworked again because solo queue cant get value from basic game mechanics.
I also want to add this constant rework process takes up time and resources. As well as fixing the ping 🏓. Both very time consuming inconveniences which is probably why as of today most of us still dont even have access to content like the rpd map or not even get a map for all kill.
Behavior may be growing as a company now but remember they started off and until recently were very small.
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i disagree that they would lose a lot of players. As it is right now there are 3 different groups affected by swfs.
1) killers; obviously.
2) actual high and mid rank survivors who are getting matched with survivors that are at "high ranks" bit dont actually play to that skill level. Creating very short and quick matches.
3) devs; who constantly have to rework, nerf, and then buff gameplay mechanics back and forth that are just being abused by swf.
On a side note. The constant back and forth to find balance, and trying to fix the ping (which in my opinion is important) takes up time and resources. This is why to this day we still dont have access to content like rpd map or why all kill chapter didnt even get a map.
Behaviour may be growing now but they started off and up until recently as/were a very small company
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The thing is though is that there isn't really one way to play the game, I mean hell there aren't even completely clear win conditions since by bhvrs own admission the pip system doesn't work correctly(not too mention it punishes certain killers).
Id also like to add that playing the game as a solo queue and a swf is very different as you go into the match with a different playstyle. Solo queue is far slower and you manage your resources far more conservatively si ce you don't usually know what your team is doing and you have to take into account that they may not be doing the most productive thing so you really have to try and stretch every pallet and loop to their limit, plus you don't know what resources have or haven't been used.
The other major point is that this all insinuates that the players are taking things seriously which lets be honest most people don't most of the time.
For those reasons I'd rather just give survivors the information that at least somewhat rivals swf, not by just giving them bond as a passive or anything but by at least just making a system that allows people to communicate what they are doing at the very least. Scott jund has a video where he made a mock up of a system that would do something similar to what I mean(I dont remember what the video was called tbh and I just spent like ten minutes going through his video list and I couldn't find it so, sources:"dude trust me" but unironically).
One last thing I'd add is that playing solo and being immersed tends to back fire against most good killers, I know this since immersed survivors are both my least favorite thing to go against but I also acknowledge that they are the reason I win a decent portion of my games. Playing in solo queue to often seems to make people more hesitant since with coms you know where or what the killer is doing so you get used to being in the terror radius and not immediately looking for a bush or wall to hide behind which is just immensely inefficient and is half the reason I feel people get so much value out of ruin. Don't get me wrong stealth will always have its place but from my experience people in solo rely far too much on it to the point of throwing a match.
These are all opinions formed from my own experiences and seeing streamers and friends experience but dbd is a weird game and no 2 people are gonna have the same experience, plus as a killer I run a lot info perks like minimum 2 to stay in chase as much as possible since that's where I have the most fun.
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Don’t be hard headed, read previous comments. Decent solutions were thought up. And as mentioned above it’s at the point where it’s not one sided and not affecting just the killers anymore.
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Scott jund (if its the twitch streamer i think it is) is not a good source. And just because he has a huge following does not mean what he says has merit.
I'm not saying what your suggesting is a horrible idea. In a perfect world it works well.
But as i mentioned before and it is one of the main debilitating counters to almost all the suggestion videos scott jund makes.
He throws suggestions around like "oh behaviour should just do this (insert time consuming game mechanic that behavior doesnt even have the expansion or ppl to do [yet] not considering as mentioned earlier, behaviour is just starting to get big.
He throws hefty ideas around towards a company whom have disclosed many times in interviews their humble beginings. Just recently there was the update with the ping/hit validation. The whole news thread emphasized how wonky their hit validation system (still is-because their answer was we'll just make it more survivor sided for the moment).
My opinion on scott jund, when he throws these ideas is, ok. Get in your car, go to behaviour, and show them how (the software& hardware programing/coding/etc) to make it happen
Because if behaviour (whom i assume want their game to cont. Growing or else they wouldnt be releasing more content) havent just magically resolved these ideas to the perfect world scenario. Then im assuming as they have disclosed their humbleness many times, that they dont have the resources to do that yet.
Im not shutting you down. Just thinking realistically. So many big changes as to just give survivors access to So many aspects that make dbd what it is; for starters we dont even know what that would do to the game engine.
Like there's reasons why all they have done for so long, is rework, rework, and rework.
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where as adding separate queues (i dont think) should be that difficult you're not adding or even changing game mechanics. Just adding essentially another lobby.
In the long run less work. Balancing would only have to be done on swf queue because swf has the resources necessary to get value out of perks with really bad nerfs.
And solo only needs be nerfed when actual game mechanics without resources are efficiently op (which kind of almost never happens)
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Less using Scott as a source and more just liked one of his ideas, he has many and he's even thrown out ideas for nerfing swf as well.
I also don't like the excuse of BHVR even "just" getting big, yes they started as fairly small team but they haven't been that for awhile. They work with massive IPs regularly and have several hundred devs not too mention the rest of the company, a dev team of that size should not be floundering nearly as much as they do and frankly I'm tired of giving them the excuse of bad early code.
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One of his ideas is literally using something he said (ergo him) as a reference...
anywho they’re a company that is still not as big as other mmrpg.
but I will agree with part of your initial complain (technically as I had originally)
the game has a lot of problems hackers, swfs, game mechanics that don’t work properly, that at least for the size of the company or resources they have (money) they just might not be getting it. And yes money. Just like Scott on a different video-boycott behavior. Well if they are not making any revenue then nothing is going to get done for sure.
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