By design, Legion is the universally least fun killer in the game

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:
" a bunch of stuff that was wrong"

You are straight up using him wrong.

Oh I love this part. Please enlighten me on the correct way to use Legion.

It's easy. Go to where survivors are, freny, hit them, when you are on the last person, hit him twice, stun out of frenzy.

then, you let them leave. Count to 3, the chase ends, they bleed out FAST, you follow the blood, try not to start chase to soon, pop frenzy, get hook

Or they run to a pallet and start mending and laugh at you while you can't do anything. I mean sure, you can just sit there and wait for your power to come back, but that only further supports my "least fun killer in the game" debate. You get an unavoidable hit, sit there, and get another unavoidable hit. That is just awful design, I don't care how effective or ineffective it is.

Your power comes back fast, you only need 1-2 seconds to smack them and down them. If they are by a pallet it's a free down.

I'll record a video tonight and post it for you.

Everybody can record a video of himself doing good with ANY killer. Monto has a 3k video with burger king myers (tier 1 myers with 100% ms and no increased lunge) in a 3v1 match where survs didn't do any gens and a 4k video right after

Then watch my stream and watch me pip about every game with him?
That wasn't my point, my point was to record a video showing how to do what I'm saying to do. AKA, a guide.

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:
" a bunch of stuff that was wrong"

You are straight up using him wrong.

Oh I love this part. Please enlighten me on the correct way to use Legion.

It's easy. Go to where survivors are, freny, hit them, when you are on the last person, hit him twice, stun out of frenzy.

then, you let them leave. Count to 3, the chase ends, they bleed out FAST, you follow the blood, try not to start chase to soon, pop frenzy, get hook

Or they run to a pallet and start mending and laugh at you while you can't do anything. I mean sure, you can just sit there and wait for your power to come back, but that only further supports my "least fun killer in the game" debate. You get an unavoidable hit, sit there, and get another unavoidable hit. That is just awful design, I don't care how effective or ineffective it is.

Your power comes back fast, you only need 1-2 seconds to smack them and down them. If they are by a pallet it's a free down.

I'll record a video tonight and post it for you.

Everybody can record a video of himself doing good with ANY killer. Monto has a 3k video with burger king myers (tier 1 myers with 100% ms and no increased lunge) in a 3v1 match where survs didn't do any gens and a 4k video right after

Then watch my stream and watch me pip about every game with him?
That wasn't my point, my point was to record a video showing how to do what I'm saying to do. AKA, a guide.

Pretty much the best killers of this community say he's trash but here you are showing us a guide on a straightforward character that you think nobody figured out. Breaking the [BAD WORD] chase so the timer ticks down is an obvious choice esp since mending doesn't stop the timer anymore unless they're at 99%, he still sucks even with that tactic which basically guarantees you down somebody.

They call killers bad while 4king with them.

Some even call hag bad.

Get your own opinion. Hey, letting the chase break might seem obvious, but considering the OP didn't mention it, maybe you should chill out.

@Delfador said:

@SmokePotion said:

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:
" a bunch of stuff that was wrong"

You are straight up using him wrong.

Oh I love this part. Please enlighten me on the correct way to use Legion.

It's easy. Go to where survivors are, freny, hit them, when you are on the last person, hit him twice, stun out of frenzy.

then, you let them leave. Count to 3, the chase ends, they bleed out FAST, you follow the blood, try not to start chase to soon, pop frenzy, get hook

Or they run to a pallet and start mending and laugh at you while you can't do anything. I mean sure, you can just sit there and wait for your power to come back, but that only further supports my "least fun killer in the game" debate. You get an unavoidable hit, sit there, and get another unavoidable hit. That is just awful design, I don't care how effective or ineffective it is.

Your power comes back fast, you only need 1-2 seconds to smack them and down them. If they are by a pallet it's a free down.

I'll record a video tonight and post it for you.

Everybody can record a video of himself doing good with ANY killer. Monto has a 3k video with burger king myers (tier 1 myers with 100% ms and no increased lunge) in a 3v1 match where survs didn't do any gens and a 4k video right after

Then watch my stream and watch me pip about every game with him?
That wasn't my point, my point was to record a video showing how to do what I'm saying to do. AKA, a guide.

Pretty much the best killers of this community say he's trash but here you are showing us a guide on a straightforward character that you think nobody figured out. Breaking the [BAD WORD] chase so the timer ticks down is an obvious choice esp since mending doesn't stop the timer anymore unless they're at 99%, he still sucks even with that tactic which basically guarantees you down somebody.

They call killers bad while 4king with them.

Some even call hag bad.

Get your own opinion. Hey, letting the chase break might seem obvious, but considering the OP didn't mention it, maybe you should chill out.

The other option is to follow a survivor backwards and just cheese the chase mechanics of the game until they either bleed out or get to low enough bleedout to be hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit. This is painful and unfun for the survivor and the killer.

He did mention it, you don't read it carefully.

His post read like he was running around hitting everyone, then going and looking for one he hit.

That's how you lose. you start the frenzy with a plan.

But hey, ya'll hate him. Doesn't bother me any.

I'm winning games and having fun. His power is strong if you use it right, most chases last half the time I'm used to. And that includes hitting 3 ppl.

If you are getting your opinions from other people, and not changing your mind till they do... There's something wrong with that. Try getting good with the killer.

ScottJund said:

@ReneAensland said:

@Incarnate said:

@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:

@Carpemortum said:

Incarnate said:

@ad19970 said:

People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once.

With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time.

The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly.



No, we do not, because so many of us in the community have been providing tons of valuable feedback, both before, during and after the PTBs, but instead of taking what we say seriously, they take it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it. Quite many, including me said several times that the legion really needs a rework and should not be released as is. When we voice our concerns, like for instance during a Q&A we all know what Cote will say, we should all go play some civilization for a refreshing change, because that is exactly how seriously he takes our concerns - like not at all. Who's the same one who thinks the killers should be fun and don't need to be viable. So once they actually begin to take our concerns serously, then we can begin to cut them some slack. As I've said before, they should not release content that is not balanced or not ready to be released, because it wrecks all kinds of havoc in doing so. You say they did well with so many killers before, well that certainly depends on perspective, and instead of actually fixing the issues they apply bandaid solutions.



There are also many in the community who dont have their panties in a twist over legion, as they are a viable killer.

They're not no. 1 killer, but they're not as trash as everyone wants them to be.

Yes there are some who for very odd reasons fervorously keep defending the legion, claiming that the legion is strong and viable, when it's glaringly obvious that the legion is now by far DbDs current weakest killer, and that legion is non-viable due to being the current weakest killer. I get you want the legion to viable and better, but legion is just not there yet, far from it. And I don't want the legion to be trash, but unfortunately that doesn't change anything.

Besides, people also being fed up with BHVR not taking our concerns, feedback and suggestion on how to fix seriously, that they're only taking it with "a grain of salt" and putting their own twist on things. And that is quite understandable, because this is something that keeps happening recurringly.

Go watch tru3  play some legion. One person at least tried and shows legion is viable. Just need synergy.

I did play legion in the PTB, and I did also see some off Tru3's videos about legion where for most of the times he was using very rare addons, which doesn't say anything about if the killers balanced or not, and believe or not, those addons are likely going to be nerfed, it says nothing about the legion being viable or being balanced for that matter. There a lot of things that the legion needs to be viable, and they're most likely have to rework it's power.

Tru3 stated Legion might be the worst killer.

I wouldn't bother. These people's criteria of "this killer is good is" "this person did well with this killer sometimes."

While a lot of your factual points are correct, you're passing off opinions as facts. Legion is very much so more fun for some killers. You may not enjoy cheese chasing, but I definitely do. You might find it more entertaining to deal with looping, safety pallets, and vault patterns for as long as the survivor can find things to use. But I personally much more prefer using Frenzy to get an easy first hit and then cheese chase for 15 to 20 seconds to finish instead of having to deal with that occasionally endless "fun". I'll agree he has a lot of weak points, and factually, there's no denying that. But speaking on behalf of the playerbase and claiming he's not fun is highly erroneous.

@ad19970 said:
People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once.
With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time.

The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say ######### the DEVS! They have COUNTLESS knowledgeable players of THEIR GAME knowing the mechanics and how it plays out that they don't even BOTHER to recruit some of them to design a killer power.

It's SO ######### obvious they just design a killer power and test it via the NOOBS they have in the office.

It's so dumb that they basically drive this game towards rank 15-20 balance it's #########.

"i've never played before omg this scary guy hit me i'm gonna die ( doesn't mend )"

vs

"ok so i'm hit twice, my bar isn't gonna drain in a chase so when he breaks off the chase i'll just mend and be fine"

or

"ok hit me twice but i'm basically just an injured survivor looping a 110% killer like the spirit without her power, ggez 4 min loop"

SIGH

@SmokePotion said:

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@MhhBurgers said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:

@SmokePotion said:

@ScottJund said:
" a bunch of stuff that was wrong"

You are straight up using him wrong.

Oh I love this part. Please enlighten me on the correct way to use Legion.

It's easy. Go to where survivors are, freny, hit them, when you are on the last person, hit him twice, stun out of frenzy.

then, you let them leave. Count to 3, the chase ends, they bleed out FAST, you follow the blood, try not to start chase to soon, pop frenzy, get hook

Or they run to a pallet and start mending and laugh at you while you can't do anything. I mean sure, you can just sit there and wait for your power to come back, but that only further supports my "least fun killer in the game" debate. You get an unavoidable hit, sit there, and get another unavoidable hit. That is just awful design, I don't care how effective or ineffective it is.

Your power comes back fast, you only need 1-2 seconds to smack them and down them. If they are by a pallet it's a free down.

I'll record a video tonight and post it for you.

Everybody can record a video of himself doing good with ANY killer. Monto has a 3k video with burger king myers (tier 1 myers with 100% ms and no increased lunge) in a 3v1 match where survs didn't do any gens and a 4k video right after

Then watch my stream and watch me pip about every game with him?
That wasn't my point, my point was to record a video showing how to do what I'm saying to do. AKA, a guide.

Pretty much the best killers of this community say he's trash but here you are showing us a guide on a straightforward character that you think nobody figured out. Breaking the [BAD WORD] chase so the timer ticks down is an obvious choice esp since mending doesn't stop the timer anymore unless they're at 99%, he still sucks even with that tactic which basically guarantees you down somebody.

They call killers bad while 4king with them.

Some even call hag bad.

Get your own opinion. Hey, letting the chase break might seem obvious, but considering the OP didn't mention it, maybe you should chill out.

In facto downing a survivor, hag is bad.
But downing is essential for the game to even work.

@Carpemortum said:
ScottJund said:

While I'll concede that Legion would be at least decent with normal killer movement speed, it still doesn't address the fact he is the least fun killer in the game for both sides. I originally thought just giving him normal movespeed would at least bandaid him but he's actually completely fundamentally broken. Let's look at the ways to play him and why they are all terrible for both killer and survivor.

Basically the gameplay flow is: find survivor -> feral when close enough -> get free hit -> look around for nearby survivors. If none nearby, hit original target again to bleed out more. If there are survivors in range, tag them until you can't tag anyone else, then hit the closest survivor again to drain frenzy.

From there, you have a few options. The first is go look for someone who is mending, and just chase them as a no-power 110% movespeed killer. As long as the survivors have a brain and used their 20 seconds of bleedout to get to even a remotely safe area, this is painful and unfun for the killer.

You can also just repeatedly hit the survivor, waiting for your power to cooldown (which can be aided by addons). This guarantees you will eventually down the survivor because there's not much you can do to avoid a feral Legion. This is painful and unfun for the survivor.

The other option is to follow a survivor backwards and just cheese the chase mechanics of the game until they either bleed out or get to low enough bleedout to be hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit. This is painful and unfun for the survivor and the killer.

Hell, even people that still like hiding / playing stealthily can't do that.

That's it. Those are the options Legion has to down people. All of them are immensely boring, and not even 115% movespeed will fix these issues. He is fundamentally badly designed for maximum unfun. The developers in charge of Legion absolutely do not understand this, as they thought removing the double stun would be a good fix, when in reality all it does is promote the unavoidable eventual downing of a survivor with no counterplay earlier.

The sad part is even though he can guarantee downs on survivors, he's still awful. It takes a decent chunk of time without addons to either cheese chase mechanic down or just repeat-power use down. This ensures: the survivor being chased eventually has no counterplay, which feels terrible. It ensures the Legion will still lose vs. a coordinated team who spread out and do not waste time healing (because there is no point), and it ensures that the other teammates not actively being chased are either bored mending or bored doing generators.

Every single thing about Legion is bad.

I enjoy the legion. They're fun to play as and against imo. Such hate lately. If its not your killer so be it. Dont try to ######### in my sandwich

you would enjoy playing freddy without sleeping survivors then

Zavri said:

@Carpemortum said:
ScottJund said:

While I'll concede that Legion would be at least decent with normal killer movement speed, it still doesn't address the fact he is the least fun killer in the game for both sides. I originally thought just giving him normal movespeed would at least bandaid him but he's actually completely fundamentally broken. Let's look at the ways to play him and why they are all terrible for both killer and survivor.

Basically the gameplay flow is: find survivor -> feral when close enough -> get free hit -> look around for nearby survivors. If none nearby, hit original target again to bleed out more. If there are survivors in range, tag them until you can't tag anyone else, then hit the closest survivor again to drain frenzy.

From there, you have a few options. The first is go look for someone who is mending, and just chase them as a no-power 110% movespeed killer. As long as the survivors have a brain and used their 20 seconds of bleedout to get to even a remotely safe area, this is painful and unfun for the killer.

You can also just repeatedly hit the survivor, waiting for your power to cooldown (which can be aided by addons). This guarantees you will eventually down the survivor because there's not much you can do to avoid a feral Legion. This is painful and unfun for the survivor.

The other option is to follow a survivor backwards and just cheese the chase mechanics of the game until they either bleed out or get to low enough bleedout to be hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit. This is painful and unfun for the survivor and the killer.

Hell, even people that still like hiding / playing stealthily can't do that.

That's it. Those are the options Legion has to down people. All of them are immensely boring, and not even 115% movespeed will fix these issues. He is fundamentally badly designed for maximum unfun. The developers in charge of Legion absolutely do not understand this, as they thought removing the double stun would be a good fix, when in reality all it does is promote the unavoidable eventual downing of a survivor with no counterplay earlier.

The sad part is even though he can guarantee downs on survivors, he's still awful. It takes a decent chunk of time without addons to either cheese chase mechanic down or just repeat-power use down. This ensures: the survivor being chased eventually has no counterplay, which feels terrible. It ensures the Legion will still lose vs. a coordinated team who spread out and do not waste time healing (because there is no point), and it ensures that the other teammates not actively being chased are either bored mending or bored doing generators.

Every single thing about Legion is bad.

I enjoy the legion. They're fun to play as and against imo. Such hate lately. If its not your killer so be it. Dont try to ######### in my sandwich

you would enjoy playing freddy without sleeping survivors then

@Delfador said:

@Zavri said:

@Condorloco_26 said:
I don't know man, it really looks like Legion was designed for new players only, from both sides. Both killers and survivors will have somewhat a chance at "success" and "fun" as survs won't go down like flies (as usually happens at ranks 15 - 20) and killers will eventually get 2 or 3k's just because there will be a lot of hiding and fooling around involved, and much longer games as a result.

because the devs just basically design a killer and barely test it via noobs ( [BAD WORD] mcote basically ).

it's absurd and INSULTING that they don't employ the help of various community members to help design a killer that put more time into their game then they did MAKING IT

I said the same thing.

They have fog whisperers and all of the fog whisperers have a lot of hours in this game.

They should make good survivors and killers try the new killer first and take their opinions seriously.

edit grammer mistake

survivors are just skins so that isn't even a thing. It's just perk balance.

Killers are a completely different beast.

@Delfador said:

@Zavri said:

@Delfador said:

@Zavri said:

@Condorloco_26 said:
I don't know man, it really looks like Legion was designed for new players only, from both sides. Both killers and survivors will have somewhat a chance at "success" and "fun" as survs won't go down like flies (as usually happens at ranks 15 - 20) and killers will eventually get 2 or 3k's just because there will be a lot of hiding and fooling around involved, and much longer games as a result.

because the devs just basically design a killer and barely test it via noobs ( [BAD WORD] mcote basically ).

it's absurd and INSULTING that they don't employ the help of various community members to help design a killer that put more time into their game then they did MAKING IT

I said the same thing.

They have fog whisperers and all of the fog whisperers have a lot of hours in this game.

They should make good survivors and killers try the new killer first and take their opinions seriously.

edit grammer mistake

survivors are just skins so that isn't even a thing. It's just perk balance.

Killers are a completely different beast.

Survivors' opinions should be taken into consideration since they will be the ones who will play against the new killer.

Look at the new killer for example, he chases you with his ass looking at you and get a down. It is a bad design and any survivor could see that.

I'm talking about new content BALANCE, a new survivor doesn't require testing outside of graphical issues. The perks do require testing.

Did you even read my post? lmfao

@Zavri said:

@Delfador said:

@Zavri said:

@Delfador said:

@Zavri said:

@Condorloco_26 said:
I don't know man, it really looks like Legion was designed for new players only, from both sides. Both killers and survivors will have somewhat a chance at "success" and "fun" as survs won't go down like flies (as usually happens at ranks 15 - 20) and killers will eventually get 2 or 3k's just because there will be a lot of hiding and fooling around involved, and much longer games as a result.

because the devs just basically design a killer and barely test it via noobs ( [BAD WORD] mcote basically ).

it's absurd and INSULTING that they don't employ the help of various community members to help design a killer that put more time into their game then they did MAKING IT

I said the same thing.

They have fog whisperers and all of the fog whisperers have a lot of hours in this game.

They should make good survivors and killers try the new killer first and take their opinions seriously.

edit grammer mistake

survivors are just skins so that isn't even a thing. It's just perk balance.

Killers are a completely different beast.

Survivors' opinions should be taken into consideration since they will be the ones who will play against the new killer.

Look at the new killer for example, he chases you with his ass looking at you and get a down. It is a bad design and any survivor could see that.

I'm talking about new content BALANCE, a new survivor doesn't require testing outside of graphical issues. The perks do require testing.

Did you even read my post? lmfao

Before laughing, you should read carefully.

It is important to take what survivors think about the new killer into consideration. NEW CONTENT BALANCE after all, affects them too you know?

@se05239 said:

@Zavri said:

@Condorloco_26 said:
I don't know man, it really looks like Legion was designed for new players only, from both sides. Both killers and survivors will have somewhat a chance at "success" and "fun" as survs won't go down like flies (as usually happens at ranks 15 - 20) and killers will eventually get 2 or 3k's just because there will be a lot of hiding and fooling around involved, and much longer games as a result.

because the devs just basically design a killer and barely test it via noobs ( [BAD WORD] mcote basically ).

it's absurd and INSULTING that they don't employ the help of various community members to help design a killer that put more time into their game then they did MAKING IT

They designed Legion to be 'fun' to play against/with. New players will feel good when they get chased (but not downed fast) and new killers will feel like they're doing good work constantly hurting survivors.

He's the opposite of fun to play, both as and against.

@BeanieEnthusiast said:

No I think leatherface does need a little buff actually. He’s much weaker than Freddy. In regards to the other person, just because one person says that ‘I’m a viewer’ doesn’t negate every other ‘viewer’ in there. I am capable of reading, but are you capable of understanding or thinking outside the box? Doesn’t look like it. 

Except I also know as a matter of fact that there are plenty of people like me who do not type much either. Sometimes all people want to do is sit down, watch a video or a stream and relax, nothing more and nothing less.That being said, if you're capable of thinking it doesn't take a genius to know that you should seriously consider looking into changing your passwords and it isn't entirely unlikely you misclicked or had bad memory either. Trust me, the possibility of a misclick isn't impossible either because Twitch recommends channels and I've nearly accidentally clicked "follow" on channels I've never heard of because the button is right there when you scroll over the streamer's name. I hope you also realize this just derails the purpose of the post too and that's not to bash on anybody with the points above either.

Now, do we want to actually get back into the discussion? Fun is subjective so I don't think anybody can really say something is fun as a fact as everyone has their own version of it. The issue I think we should look at is for instance the issue I have with legion is that he's lackluster in some areas and brokenly strong in others in a way where even with that out of the way he's just not satisfying to play in my opinion. My issue with legion for instance is that his power lacks counterplay but also is in a state where it's incredibly easy for the game to fly by incredibly fast because legion encourages "gen rush" and by this I mean just not healing and using resilience on generators pretty much. He's essentially a nightmare to balance because he's either too weak or too strong by this design. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I even have any good ideas to buff the legion appropriately either because of this reason.

Devs really need to think about what they want to do with this killer. Currently with his 2 purple addons he can kill anyone reliably within 12-15 seconds after the initial frenzy hit (ofc with cheesing the chase). His lack of map pressure makes it so survivors can still easily win the game with multiple escapes, however, chases are not fun for survivors, as there isn't much counterplay except No Mither, Dance with me and Quick & Quiet.

Without addons he isn't close to being time efficient, even though he will get guaranteed downs. They could let the timer count down in chases too, however, that is even less fun for survivors, as their asses will be on a death-timer as soon as he sees them (EDIT: That is to say in every game, not only in games where Legion cheeses the chase). One could argue how that isn't different to any other killer, as virtually every killer has a certain "time" he needs on average to get a survivor downed. The thing is, against other killers without pallet/window counterplay (so not counting Nurse, Trapper and the likes) the survivor has the possibility to kite for a whole game, which makes survivors feel good, but ofc the killer will feel like #########. It's really an interesting debate they will need to have, to find out where they wanna head with Legion.

@Theluckyboi said:
Friendly reminder the only reason Legion exists is because deathgarden sold poorly and they had to rush a new killer before christmas

A killer release was planned for this time of the year way back when. Deathgarden doing poorly wouldn't have anything to do with the timing of this killer release.

However, there is a very good chance this killer was meant to be Ghostface and they couldn't get the licensing rights. That would explain the similarities and why Legion's lore is so much worse than every other original killer.