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How does this work again? 50ms Killer vs 88ms Survivor
This is a video of me getting rob of my Hits 2 times because Felix had 88ms vs me as a Killer with 50ms.
I can clearly accept the chainsaw being invalidated but Cmon! My M1 hit first!
I had 50ms on the lobby screen and when I checked the Felix's ping he was 88ms. I thought the one with better ping would win but this... in my case just look favorable to survivors.
Comments
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Ping can spike up and down.
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I know but this mechanic man... The 6 second chased turned into a 30 secs chase that turned into 1 min and 20 sec chase just because of stun validation. Feels annoying as hell.
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People who think that the reason there hits are not landing soley based off of ping don't understand how networks work. In fact the fact that they have worse ping for you is more of an indicator that the hit should not count and not the other way around.
This is very likely what happened, they pre-threw the pallet, they're a bit laggy and they're afraid that you're going to hit them because of it. Your own latency of 30 ms is enough latency that the hit appears to land despite them throwing the pallet ages ago (again due to their personal lag) The server determines that the hit that you landed was invalid due to your own 30 milleseconds of latency and you have the health state removed.
I get that it doesn't feel good, but it is objectively fair.
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Yeah, it's pretty demoralizing. They're going to fix the fake hits though I'm pretty sure.
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Survivor client sided instead of killer client sided. The money demands and the money gets.
If the pallet drops on their screen you can have zero ping and still be rolled back.
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Not how it works buddy, though it’s pretty obvious who’s side your buttered on so I won’t bother arguing.
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Seriously, everyone needs to educate themselves on this before commenting “SuRvIVoR sIdEd”. Look at the dev blog and they explain very clearly what the hit validation is.
The ghost hit you get as killer is the server rejecting your hit, all BHVR need to do is remove the ghost hit so that everyone and their dog doesn’t come on the forum to cry about how they got “robbed” of their hits.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/262994/developer-update-july-2021#latest
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Maybe I'm not understanding fully but instead of laggy killers getting hits through pallets now laggy survivors get priority drop?
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Basically, now every m1 killer is even more weaker and not fun to play. Pallets now beat killers lunge will make pallet camping meta and m1 killers will be force to eat a stun or waste time mins gaming lol. I guess behavior only care about people buying them $30 survivor cosmetics lul
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^ This.
And I agree, the Ghost Hit needs to go away, because Killers are not "robbed" of their Hits, they should not get those Hits in the first place.
AND Killers need to learn that they cannot swing at every Pallet and expect a Hit. However, I have little hope that the system stays if they complain as much as they do.
(Killers are complaining more about getting "robbed" by Hits in the past few days than Survivors getting hit through Pallets over the last years)
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(Killers are complaining more about getting "robbed" by Hits in the past few days than Survivors getting hit through Pallets over the last years)
To be fair, at some point, you just learn to give up on the concept of a pallet stun and just eat the hit, because you at least get the full injury boost, as opposed to locking yourself in the drop animation, losing a health state, and also losing half the boost.
But yeah, to clarify: The pallet dropping on your face occurs a little earlier than you see it, due to your latency, so you don't 'get robbed of a hit', the hit was just less achievable than it looks on your end.
And if it bothers you that much, just play an anti-pallet killer like Nemesis or Pyramid Head.
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You don't understand at all. Not going to fault you for it, but I can't be bothered to explain it again.
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For those Of you to lazy to pause it. From HIS perspective he gets the hit just as the felix begins the animation. Not 50% of its drop, so not getting this hit is 100% BS.
However ping doesnt matter much which is kinda stupid, closest to server wins. In a survivor perspective this is getting hit after the pallet is completely down, which isn't a nice feeling is it?
Neither side should experience such bad hits especially when their screen is clearly 1+seconds out of sync. How are players meant to know what's what when you can have good ping but not actually see what's happens, at this point you have to guess on if what you see is actually there... and that's a stupid concept for either side.
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If you guys played Team Fortress 2.
The melee ghost hits literally happen every match.
You would hear the bonk but no damage is done.
The slight moment your ping goes higher it just robs you every time.
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Rollback was the one everyone considered killed Street Fighter V
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From his perspective he gets the hit before the pallet is down. From the survivor’s perspective, the pallet is down already and the killer is stunned, and if he got hit there he would be complaining about laggy hits and pallets being useless.
So which takes priority? The devs have tried to compromise by saying “whichever registers with the server first, stun or hit, gets priority”. Whatever they do, someone will be “robbed” and complain. If you can think of a fairer way to do it then by all means, I’m sure they’d be happy to know about it.
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I think the problem here is I had an average of 50ms-60ms Ping as the Bubba while Felix has 80ms-90ms ping. Rather than being fair, it's more a Survivor Sided Change which is not okay.
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Its not fair right now i feel like they favor the side who pay more. I know its probably not the case. Those hit are the reason i stop playing right now and im waiting for the pbe to drop like that i can try the new killer and wait for the next pbe for the next killer etc... until they fix the hit
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Ping displayed in the Ue4 Client is not always 1:1 accurate, very unreliable in the minute cases of validation.
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Okay but like most people you're going to the them vs us state. I even said survivors didnt like it when a pallet was down and they got hit, this is the exact same outcome but players are calling it fix.
Either they fix their servers by creating more, improving them etc. Or allow more of a leeway for hits to be considered.
Atm it's gone from a survivor issue to a killer one, when it shouldn't even be an issue
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honestly i play both sides and yes it was BS on some hits from a survivor perspective but i got used to it (similar to getting hit trhought windows i vaulted and i'm already 3 m away from) but right now as killer you are definitly feeling robbed of hits. This video shows that you got the hit before he started the drop animation and still the hit didn't register...
If the weapon is already across half of the pallet before the pallet is down THIS SHOULD HIT. Right now it's like survivor that are vaulting and are getting hit while in the middle of the window would not registered the hit... (similar to an issue entering jars from an other asymmetrical horror game that would grant invulnerability frame during the animation)
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No, it's impossible to fix that in any world. Your game (your client) register a hit because it has to provide feedback right now, not wait until the server gives feedback about "he hits" or "he doesn't hit". So in the killer's game, he hits so he hears the scream, but yourPing ms later, the server corrects (or not) the fact you hit the surv'.
This is how client-server works.
To fix that, everything would be laggy as hell, because your game would be waiting to the server to give the state of the game each time.
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Maybe killers are complaining for a reason.
Or would you call those legit pallet stuns, when the animation is at the beginning instead of the acclaimed 50%?
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- Ping fluctuates, it's not a constant number
- You're assuming you both have the same exact reaction time, which is most likely not the case. 38 ms sounds like it could very well just be a difference in reaction time
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It isn't 50ms vs 88ms, it's 50 + 88, your connection to the server, + their connection to the server, just like killers have been saying for years that hits over pallets are just lag and that survivors have to just deal with it, now killers do, ideally it would be nice if everything just looked perfect on both sides but it never will.
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It's objectively fair that in a PvP game, the player with a good connection is punished for issues raised by latency in the slower connection person's game??
Methinks you might need to revisit this and check what 'objective' means. It's not fair at all for the killer's objective (hitting/downing survivors) to be defined by the survivor's connection which the killers have zero influence over.
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Can you, without a shadow of a doubt, prove the killer had the better ping at the interaction point besides the number they have stated that they had in the pre-game lobby?
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It's really glitchy and horrible to play with honestly, I kinda stopped playing DBD because of it actually. Also, it's even more painful as Bubba and Chainsaw hits 100%, who happened to also be who I was playing the most after the update.
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I agree with you 100% , neither side should have to deal with this, however, I DO think that it is MORE negatively impactful for Killers because it's 1v4 and each loop for each player can be extended before each down for 30-60 seconds at least and that ends up adding like 8-12min of chasing to a Killer match if each Survivor plays into this...
That is CRAZY amount of added chase time if a Killer wants to down and kill all 4 Survivors..
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Oh yeah it defo hurts killers more, but it shouldn't happen on either side but survivors are happy and call it fixed when in reality it's just impacting others. I lost my hit during a pallet save, on my screen I hit them before they even started the animation (she was injured) but it rolled back so I lost both survivors which massively screwed me. Luckily i would of got a 4k but they quit so their friend could get hatch lol
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Not much achieved by discussing this....bhvr will do as they please; and for now the system won't change.
For all those who play killer, my suggestion and also my opinion on what the meta could become now is: don't try hitting them at pallets, just avoid the stun to lose as little time as possible and also don't try to make them waste a pallet by waiting for the hit in chase. Not the ideal scenario as it robs the killer of valuable time and prevents them from making survs waste pallets, but it is what it is... in the end it'll save the killer some frustration in the middle of a match.
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I've just analyzed your video frame by frame at 60fps, and I can say for sure, you didn't have 50ms latency in both instances.
Keep in mind that your latency in the lobby is usually lower than your latency in-game, you can try a game as a survivor and check multiple times this way, you'll see. Also, latency fluctuates all the time but is more stable with a wired connection, it can help if you're using wifi.
Playing at ~50ms myself (I have 39-42ms in lobby), I got hits that were correctly registered and weren't rejected where the survivor dropped the pallet even earlier than what we see in this clip. I rarely see any of my hits rejected.
Old pallets hit validation was Killer-sided, new pallets hit validation is server-sided (not killer-sided, not survivor-sided). It is the most fair system and has to stay. Also, for the further analysys: A pallet drop doesn't stun instantly, after checking multiple clips, it seems to stun about 5 frames (which is equal to ~0.083s or ~83ms) after the animation start (survivor having his arms on the pallet).
The interesting part, the clip analysis:
Chainsaw Hit @ frame 341 (~5.683s in the video)
Pallet animation start @ frame 341 (~5.683s)
Pallet stun @ frame 346 (~5.767s)
Pallet stun happens 83ms after the Hit on Killer's POV, so in this instance: If Killer < 83ms = hit registered while if Killer > 83ms = hit rejected
then:
M1 hit @ frame 2262 (~37.700s)
Pallet animation start @ frame 2263 (~37.717s)
Pallet stun @ frame 2268 (~37.800s)
Pallet stun happens 100ms after the hit on Killer's POV, so in this instance: If Killer < 100ms = hit registered while if Killer > 100ms = hit rejected.
As a conclusion, as seen in the clip, the server received the stun before the hit in both actions, which means you had >83ms on the first hit and >100ms on the 2nd hit, and rejected both hits as intended (the server does it's job correctly). It's as simple as that. You were not robbed of any hit. The false Blood VFX animation from Killer's POV is indeed annoying and I hope they will be able to do something about it, but the new pallet hit validation is fair and has to stay or we'll see people abuse their connections forever. I really hope vaults are coming next.
I play both sides but I'm also a Killer main (70%+ of my games) so I understand it can be frustrating sometimes, and for balancing issues and having it more bearable, maybe the devs could make it so the pallet is stunning the killer 1 frame (17ms) later than right now, so the killer has 1 more frame to have his hit validated before being rejected but all of this really has to stay server-side for fairness for both sides. I also feel that adding servers (especially for eastern europe/middle east but also other regions that can't have a decent enough latency because are too far to the current servers) now that the game has a lot more players and crossplay would make the experience just way better for everyone.
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That is very easy.
The hit validation only works for the person who has the worst ping.
I've been robbed from many hots when i played against 200+ ping survivors, 1 of them even went up to above 900 ping.
I've been hugging them before i went for the hit but hit never registered.
So imagine the fun game i had against them.
After all that time they still don't see that they have it the other way around as how it supposed to be.
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It matters what the SERVER sees not what the survivor sees. A bad survivors ping will still get hit through pallets just like a bad killers ping will get denied a hit. Its not biased and it doesn't favor survivors.
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See, it's lag when Killers hit through pallets, but bullshit when Survivors don't get hit.
I don't understand the complaints; pallets are supposed to be the only real consistent defence survivors have, and they are of limited quantity. How is it fair if Killers don't respect pallets?
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You lack reading comprehension. But I'll try to dumb it down to your level. I had said that the survivor had dropped the pallet very early to counter there high ping. That you had hit them even though they had pre-dropped and it was within your own latency window where the validation had triggered. But honestly I dont expect you to understand.
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Capcom in that situation did a poor implementation well after initial development of the game. Rollback based netcode can be retrofitted to games after the fact, but it might not always perform as well as a game designed with Rollback as the intended netcode. Most games are usually Delay based and I can't think of many non fighting game rollback implementations.
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I’m “going to the them vs us state” because it’s a PvP game and lag is inherently an us vs them issue.
There will always be latency between killer and survivor players. It’s not possible to transmit data between two separate points with absolutely no delay, adding more servers won’t solve an unsolvable problem. So the question becomes, how do you implement a solution that is as fair as it’s possible to be? The current version is the devs’ attempt to do just that: whoever has their action validated by the server first gets priority. If they “allow more of a leeway for hits” like you’re suggesting then survivors will suffer laggy hits again and complain, and we’re right back at square one.
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As long as the server registers the pallet drop, even if it is a millisecond before the hit registers on your screen, the hit will be rolled back. You can't get hits before the pallet animation stuns anymore. The best we can hope is for BHVR to remove this update, or for them to fix the hits even connecting on the killer screen, so people don't feel cheated. Right now this change is very survivor sided, and as someone who plays 50/50, I believe this change is not good.
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And it sucks for survivors to be punished for using the only consistent defence they have, which also is a limited resource.
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Oh damn! My 20+ years as a network based software engineer, along with Cisco networking qualifications among others, means I don't understand how ping, or software or networking works, but you do?
Not to mention you completely missed my point in either case, which is that it's it not "objectively fair" (the term you used) for the killer to have to work around network issues that are influenced by factors outside of their control (i.e. it's not just down to their latency). I have a pretty strong connection myself, and I've had a number of instances where I've landed a hit only for it to not register. And in every case, the survivor had a worse ping than me!
What would be fairer is for the killer to be rewarded for achieving their objective of hitting/downing the survivor and the survivor being punished in this case for getting too close and trying to greed that extra loop
But I don't expect you to understand the nuance of that.
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It has nothing to do with latency. This video proves it has nothing to do with latency.
It seems like the game checks if the pallet is 50% down. If yes, reject hit, if no hit the survivor. Its going be new tech that survivor abuse to get free health states. If they wanted buff smack hit exhaustion perk, they could just make it so that pallets that are thrown by smack hit apply the stun Immediately.
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Except... This video doesn't prove anything to the current discution, and I repeat, it all has to do with killer's latency, I have explained well enough in my post. I also explained the pallet stun you talk about, it's good you remember the 50% information but it seems you wipe out on purpose the fact that the 50% pallet drop has to happen ON THE SERVER (and not on any player screens, whether they play killer or survivor), therefore the more latency the killer has, the later he will see the stun on his screen and the longer it has happened on the server already (and the earlier he will have to hit to not have his hit rejected). If you don't understand such basic netcode, don't spread out misinformation at least, thanks.
I've had many exact same hits as killer (and even hits 1frame later) playing w/ ~50ms latency since the update and those have hit survivors. Those hits were not rejected. About 80 games in as killer since the update, only 5 hits were rejected that I was totally fine with.
My issues playing killers are elsewhere, current pallet stuns are fine.
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@Mercês gives a good explanation on it and why it happens even if the survivor has higher ping.
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"Limited" is not equal to good survivors knowing how to loop and mange their pallets well. Also there are maps that have 20 pallets and all of them are safe ie. The Game.
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Ime things are great. As Killer, I haven't had any denied hits. As a Survivor, I am feeling the crispiness of pallet stuns. I have been struck through pallets but just assumed they had a better connection at that moment. I know people really like they vs us approach here and I must say, it's interesting how Survivors have endured The Killer being the server for years including fake hits and dying because of it and that was ok. However, a week into the server being the authority on pallet stuns and it's the end of the world for Killers. So unfair, getting robbed and the lot. The topics I see are always so definitive, and conclusive: there is NO way the Survivor had a better ping; I was robbed of my hit FIX THIS!!
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It actually IS fair but what you are seeing on your screen makes it look not fair. There has been multiple answers throughout this thread explaining this already. Whichever the server registers first the pallet or the hit gets priority and that is 1000% fair. I heard they are going to fix seeing the blood and scream so that it doesn’t seem the way it does now.
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It's more noticeable on pure M1 Killers like Shape and Clown. Had like an average of 3 Ghost Hits per Trial with those Killers.
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My issue is you can have 40 ping and the survivor 800 you are still going to get robbed at the pallet
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No, you're still doing us verse them. You're basically saying killers have to deal with it or survivors will have the issue, that's not a fair statement as now one side must deal with an issue that shouldn't be a thing. Imagine if most games you have as survivor end up getting hit once a pallets down, you wouldn't enjoy it would you?
And more servers etc. Would actually help, do you know how many different countries are included in the EU servers alone? How can you expect them all to be on the same level.
As for the leeway it will be needed if this is how they're gonna code it. If a killers screen is just 1 second off then that killer is going to have a rough and horrible time. Imagine being 1second late as survivor, you wouldn't be able to loop efficiently as the killer isn't where you see him, you wouldn't be able to time pallet drops, dead hard etc.
It's not acceptable for either side to have this issue. And having it where good ping isnt even the deciding factor hurts alot. I have 40ping, sure not perfect but that's damn good considering and I get hits rolled back before they even drop a pallet, same as I can play a killer like PH and have a survivor be within my power yet not get hit because the server isnt showing it right. When I need to be accurate in a game I cannot afford the game to show me a second off and roll back each hit. Its physically impossible to to guess where the survivor actually is.
This is an issue, and hopefully will be looked into.
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