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Dev misconception on legion critiques
Devs did their best to make a fun killer. They did a pretty good job so far, meme not intended, but they came up short on the follow through. The last bit of fun is the satisfaction element of using the power.
To give an example of killer satisfaction, think of the feeling when you hear the snap of a trap. When you blink in as a nurse and hit, when you mind game someone with a hag trap. That is killer satisfaction. That is fun.
They made a statement that they wanted to make this a time waster ability like the RBT, but the RBT suffers from the same lack of problem as deep wound. There isn't satisfaction. We want the head to pop when the timer runs out. That's a killer's fun.
If we can get that satisfaction at the end of the chase, I think it would calm the review storm. there are so many calls for buffs in so many directions but all we really ultimately want is to down the victim with our cool, fun new power.
If we could have the bleed out timer keep running during a chase after a second hit, problem solved. 3 victims on the mend, and the unlucky last one is chased down like a shot dear.
Devs could let legions power work with exposed perks as an alternative, but ultimately bring able to down your opponent is the last key to legions fun
Comments
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I was one of the first people to advocate for Legion strongly needing improvements, as well as the idea of new killers being an "Arms race" of each needing to top the last as being irrelevant, rather just strong enough to be worth playing at any skill level. I care very much about Legion ending up a fun and viable killer.
With that in mind.. I don't think letting the timer tick down during chases is the right way to go about it. It sounds fun, on paper, but looking at it from both sides it dooms the survivor being focused on to.. Having no options, period. Against even a decent killer player, there'd be no getting away once you're afflicted with deep wounds. That kind of punishment seems really lopsided with how easy it is to get the first hit, going off this and how little interaction/skill is needed to apply deep wounds initially, I feel like this would actually really hurt the enjoyment of both parties.
You happen to catch the latest dev stream? If not, I'd recommend checking it out, they put out proposed changes that actually sound pretty alright.
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Legion honestly seems poorly designed to me because of how 1D he is. His strengths and weaknesss have 1 thing in common: Little to no counterplay. It is laughably easy for Legion to negate any and all loops and just bum rush a Survivor for an easy hit. It is almost impossible to lose any Legion with half a brain. At the same time, there is nothing the Legion can do about the fact that his power is designed in such a way that it prevents him from getting good, fair, well-earned downs with it, and in order to do his objective as the Killer, he is better off being an M1 110% bullying practice dummy.
This 1D Killer with glaring strengths as well as glaring weaknesses is going to need to be a masterful balancing act. He'll need to be extremely fine-tuned and precisely adjusted to make him fun to play both as and against, but the slightest heavy-handed buff could make him from pathetically weak to abjectly OP. For example, the simple nature and features of Legion's Feral Frenzy—faster speed, chain hits, and near-total loop negation—leaves me convinced that giving Legion 115% speed would be about as balanced as giving the NoSkillbilly no cooldown on his chainsaw. Legion's power needs to be balanced in such a way to justify his 110 speed, because if he were 115, he'd be a fully capable M1 Killer with an extra, easily-accessible loop denial/ez pressure ability.
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@azazer said:
In the last dev stream they made a strawman argument that players want all killers to be top tier. To be fair that is a thing. However that isn't the issue here.Devs did their best to make a fun killer. They did a pretty good job so far, meme not intended, but they came up short on the follow through. The last bit of fun is the satisfaction element of using the power.
To give an example of killer satisfaction, think of the feeling when you hear the snap of a trap. When you blink in as a nurse and hit, when you mind game someone with a hag trap. That is killer satisfaction. That is fun.
They made a statement that they wanted to make this a time waster ability like the RBT, but the RBT suffers from the same lack of problem as deep wound. There isn't satisfaction. We want the head to pop when the timer runs out. That's a killer's fun.
If we can get that satisfaction at the end of the chase, I think it would calm the review storm. there are so many calls for buffs in so many directions but all we really ultimately want is to down the victim with our cool, fun new power.
If we could have the bleed out timer keep running during a chase after a second hit, problem solved. 3 victims on the mend, and the unlucky last one is chased down like a shot dear.
Devs could let legions power work with exposed perks as an alternative, but ultimately bring able to down your opponent is the last key to legions fun
Totally agree.
The Devs don't seem to see what "fun" actually is for killer player.It's the same with Freddy, you use your power on someone and want to say in a deep voice "Now you are in my world" and dominate him there… but in truth, you get looped for ages, because the power did nothing but delay you.
Pig the same, put an RBT on hook 'em/leave 'em and a short time later you see the HUD, rescued, healed, RBT gone. No one is saying, "oh that was fun, I delayed the game".3 -
You're half right.
Setting up a trap as hag or trapper in the right spot and herding a survivor into it takes skill and planning
Blinking and landing an amazing hit as the nurse takes skill.
Landing that perfect hatchet shot as huntress takes skill
Pressing M2 to frenzy and then being able to vault obstacles and repeatedly mash m1 to hit a survivor takes no skill. That's why it's not rewarding. Then waiting for them to go down after you've hit them is just bland. Compare that to landing 2 hard hatchet shots as huntress where you're trying to throw where you think the survivors are going to run to.
Legion is a nub killer.0 -
@The_Crusader... in a point i agree with ya; Legion is easy to utilize, but i highly disagree on the Nub part. If we follow ur sentence then we should declare Spirit a Nub killer as well since u utilize her power as well without timing and just watch scratchmarks and listen to sounds. But it's actually not that easy. Same with Legion who suffers from same issues: no scratchmarks as well non-lethal ability. u need to make choices wich is equivalent to placing traps/mindgaming in chase with heavy outcome on ur performance. Legion is a crowdcontrol killer and such u need a decent amount of awareness how to assault. Sometimes dedicating to a chase even with Killer Instinct up or sometimes hitting a wounded survivor instead to trigger Killer Instinct to set up pressure or target a specific survivor to kill, it's all something wich requires alot of experience and experience is equivalent to skill. So Killer Mains with lesser reaction speed due age or other IRL hindrances prefer killers who demand rather experience to utilize his potential. And Legion is such a Killer, ofc not on scale with Spirit but similar.
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@The_Crusader... I agree on the point of Legion is easy to utilize, but i highly disagree on the Nub part. If we follow ur sentence then we should declare Spirit a Nub killer as well since she's easy to utilize as well: just activate power, follow scratchmarks, listen to sound, get the down... but it's actually not that easy. And same applies to Legion: he may be fast and overcomes defenses but his power is barely lethal except of overcommitment wich takes time... but depending on the situation it's the right choice. Legion is a crowdcontrol killer and such u have a bigger pool of choices than any other killer: dedicating to a chase even with Killer Instinct popping up, hitting a wounded survivor with frenzy instead to trigger Killer Instinct to set up pressure, dedicating multiple hits on a chase or risking the stun for 'faster' down... to make ur choices the right ones rely heavily on ur experience and awareness of the situation. There lot of killers demanding skill to utilize but it requires training and solid framerates... as Killers like Trapper, Hag, Spirit, Clown and Legion demand experience of situational possebilities to be threatening. Perfect for Killer Mains with lesser reaction speed due age or other IRL hindrances... Yes Legion's power is simple to use in skill perspective, but to properly pressure survivors u need awareness of the situation to be threatening... experience is equivalent to skill
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But when you find the pro survivors in games, the 2000+ hours survivors, those guys can be hard to get even with spirit. With Legion it's much easier. Then you just moonwalk to them while they're mending.
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I did see it, reducing the timer on already injured survivors is what stuck out to me but it still leaves the overall issue that the power lacks that little umph to bring the sequence to an end.Rukov said:I was one of the first people to advocate for Legion strongly needing improvements, as well as the idea of new killers being an "Arms race" of each needing to top the last as being irrelevant, rather just strong enough to be worth playing at any skill level. I care very much about Legion ending up a fun and viable killer.
With that in mind.. I don't think letting the timer tick down during chases is the right way to go about it. It sounds fun, on paper, but looking at it from both sides it dooms the survivor being focused on to.. Having no options, period. Against even a decent killer player, there'd be no getting away once you're afflicted with deep wounds. That kind of punishment seems really lopsided with how easy it is to get the first hit, going off this and how little interaction/skill is needed to apply deep wounds initially, I feel like this would actually really hurt the enjoyment of both parties.
You happen to catch the latest dev stream? If not, I'd recommend checking it out, they put out proposed changes that actually sound pretty alright.
But I think you're overlooking the fact that if the killer, any killer, is going to down someone, they have to focus on one person. The last person to get stabbed in a frenzy is going to get focused down because they are right there. They just drew the short end of the stick.
That also isn't to say they have no chance of getting away. Between the speed burst of being hit, the killer stun and below average walking speed industries or well equipped victim can evade a killer long enough to either mend, heal, or lose the killer all together with the lack of scratch marks to follow.
Having a time limit that won't pause during a chase (again after a second hit of frenzy only) keeps mending at 99% in place as it is now. It's simply a quality of life change that gives the killer the satisfaction aspect of using their power without moon walking after their target.0 -
@Youkari said:
@The_Crusader... in a point i agree with ya; Legion is easy to utilize, but i highly disagree on the Nub part. If we follow ur sentence then we should declare Spirit a Nub killer as well since u utilize her power as well without timing and just watch scratchmarks and listen to sounds. But it's actually not that easy. Same with Legion who suffers from same issues: no scratchmarks as well non-lethal ability. u need to make choices wich is equivalent to placing traps/mindgaming in chase with heavy outcome on ur performance. Legion is a crowdcontrol killer and such u need a decent amount of awareness how to assault. Sometimes dedicating to a chase even with Killer Instinct up or sometimes hitting a wounded survivor instead to trigger Killer Instinct to set up pressure or target a specific survivor to kill, it's all something wich requires alot of experience and experience is equivalent to skill. So Killer Mains with lesser reaction speed due age or other IRL hindrances prefer killers who demand rather experience to utilize his potential. And Legion is such a Killer, ofc not on scale with Spirit but similar.Spirit is much more counterable, because she can't see you. I know Legion won't detect scratchmarks, but they are fast and see you. If they stay focused chasing you, they won't need scratchmarks to keep track. The only god counter are pallet stuns, which can be outplayed by Legion by respecting them or hitting through wit a fast strike.
Besides that. Yes the ability is almost non-lethal. But still it always guarantees a first strike on Legion. That's why survivors don't heal against them. They will hit you anyway against with it and going against Legion can be kinda annoying, dealing with a killer, that even though it takes multiple stabs and a lot of time, they will always injure you and your friends, without any counterplay.1 -
And that's the problem, where's the counter play?Freudentrauma said:@Youkari said:
@The_Crusader... in a point i agree with ya; Legion is easy to utilize, but i highly disagree on the Nub part. If we follow ur sentence then we should declare Spirit a Nub killer as well since u utilize her power as well without timing and just watch scratchmarks and listen to sounds. But it's actually not that easy. Same with Legion who suffers from same issues: no scratchmarks as well non-lethal ability. u need to make choices wich is equivalent to placing traps/mindgaming in chase with heavy outcome on ur performance. Legion is a crowdcontrol killer and such u need a decent amount of awareness how to assault. Sometimes dedicating to a chase even with Killer Instinct up or sometimes hitting a wounded survivor instead to trigger Killer Instinct to set up pressure or target a specific survivor to kill, it's all something wich requires alot of experience and experience is equivalent to skill. So Killer Mains with lesser reaction speed due age or other IRL hindrances prefer killers who demand rather experience to utilize his potential. And Legion is such a Killer, ofc not on scale with Spirit but similar.Spirit is much more counterable, because she can't see you. I know Legion won't detect scratchmarks, but they are fast and see you. If they stay focused chasing you, they won't need scratchmarks to keep track. The only god counter are pallet stuns, which can be outplayed by Legion by respecting them or hitting through wit a fast strike.
Besides that. Yes the ability is almost non-lethal. But still it always guarantees a first strike on Legion. That's why survivors don't heal against them. They will hit you anyway against with it and going against Legion can be kinda annoying, dealing with a killer, that even though it takes multiple stabs and a lot of time, they will always injure you and your friends, without any counterplay.
Exhaustion perks work but that's a 1 time use. ll you can do is pray you've got iron will and he can't find you.0 -
Isn't that counterplay by itself? If u are wounded and Legion chooses not to frenzy... then he's a frigging 110% M1 killer suffering loops... till he uses frenzy just to inflict deep wound instead and giving u more time for ur team to do objectives... all i see here is whining of a survivor who complains that Legion is a killer u can't outrun if he focuses u... BUT U ARE A SURVIVOR OUT OF 4! there's no "I" in "team" dude, in time a overcommiting Legion downs u there will be multiple gens popping up if not then ur team just suck, either cuz they all died before u or either they're not utilizing the time u buying out for them to do objectives... and that case: though luck, better luck next time. Legion has for sure the skill lowest focus at 1v1... but the expense of time to down is higher than most good chase killers like Nurse, Clown, Spirit, Shape with EW3... and in a team game like DbD killers need the hook pressure as fast as possible... wich Legion struggles as much like Freddy, face the facts pls
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It mentioned that there is no counter play against the legion, but I find that it isn't the case. I wouldn't consider myself any kind of top tier player but I do make it to rank 1 every session much to my chagrin. Given that skill range I've lost survivors in rampage. Jukes along with no scratch marks are a powerful combination given the right setting. There is counter play but it takes a skill set that isn't looping so survivors aren't doing it on large scale0
