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Any reasonable arguments against MMR?
So far there's just three arguments repeated in circle:
- the game is not fun for high skilled players without stomping noobs
- my teammates are as bad as I am now
- the game isn't competitive so MMR doesn't belong here (How exactly MMR is specific for competitive games only? How exactly you differ a competitive game from non-competitive?)
Is there at least one another argument that actually makes sense? So far it looks like people just got used to busted matchmaking and don't want something new.
Comments
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High-MMR killer being a sweatfest is about the only one
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If people who don't like competitive play would play casually instead, that wouldn't be an issue.
If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen, as they say.
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But it is not a problem about MMR. It is a problem about the game itself, and we always knew that playing against survivors who will run straight to god loops when they see you and will abuse it until you lose your mind is unpleasant. That's why only few killers are viable in high level gameplay. And the solution is not to throw killers on noobs, but to work on map design and perks.
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Regardless it isn't working, I got multiple killers tonight with under 100 hrs. I assume this is because they are slaughtering rank 20's with noed etc. so mmr is bumping them up too quickly. IMO this instance is just as poor as previous ones.
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Sometimes you just want to pwn some noobs. I don't see any other argument against it. Oh and i've noticed longer queues, i hope they don't get unbearable.
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Even if the system is not perfect, there are people on this forum who admit that they have 97% killrate or something, nothing can be worse than that, and I really doubt that new system is as bad as that.
Also, MMR takes time to settle, these people might be going through their initial placement.
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Noobs have arguments against that for sure.
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I agree those people need an extra sweaty bracket.
The "I have a 97% kill rate bc I run ruin/undying, thanat, sloppy pin legion." (plz don't run this its boring)
At the same time I run only corrupt most of the time. I'm getting the full meta andys because I played well?
I don't want easy games, but I don't want to play like a sweatlord with a bunch of regression perks either. its a catch 22. 😪
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If you'll run regression perk stack and your results will improve you'll get even tougher opponents.
The entire point of MMR is that you can play with weak perks, weak killers and be chill in general, and you will have the same killrate as some god nurse in high levels. You'll just play against different people.
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My argument is that I'm totally not confident that MMR works with DBD and therefore does nothing to match equally "skilled" players. Same as emblems don't reflect skill right now. MMR requires a win condition to determine if you played well or bad and then adjusts it according to the differecne between you and the opponent(s).
And DBD doesn't have a clear win condition. If you just pick escape vs. 3k or better, then urbaning key users going down in 5 second chases still rank up due to the key, 10 hook games with 2 kills (because you didn't tunnel) derank you. And as they don't want to reveal how the MMR is working in detail, you just have to guess if it works and see if your game experience is better or worse. Including games where you play together SWF with mixed ranks and guess if the killer is chosen adequately
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just like it isnt fun playing against way better players you barely have a chance against because they dont get paired against people on THEIR level.
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I don't believe it's a healthy way for this game to go with the many existing problems with the core mechanics. MMR promotes extremely sweaty play by both survivors and killers and it will drain any fun out of this game, it will hurt it really bad.
I just don't see the game ever getting to a healthier state if MMR is going to be a permanent add, it will be the downfall along with the ignorance around balancing issues too imo.
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Well, that's not exclusive to BHVR. As I remember, in Starcraft 2 it wasn't revealed to players until some point, and casual modes in Hearthstone don't give any clue about player's MMR at all.
That might change with time though.
Personally I think that we need some indirect indication of MMR, like leagues in Starcraft 2.
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But how it promotes that?
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I agree, I think MMR makes sense for like dota 2, league, and many other games that have clear skill gaps. soo many variables, If we dont know how it works, how do they expect to make it work. BTW they have been testing mmr for 2 years now. so....
Post edited by Psycho_ on1 -
There can be problems with MMR while still being preferable to what we had before. I'll take this over the old system.
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Because people will be entirely focused on staying in certain ranks or will be trying their hardest to get out of certain ranks. It promotes such an unhealthy extremely competitive mindset for a game with so many balancing issues as it is. People will play so beyond sweaty once a competitive mechanic is added to the game, you can see it from most people streaming and in your own personal games. Look how much more competitive players have been playing since mmr was turned on.
It's evident people have been having a more miserable experience since it was switched on, just proves why it shouldn't be in the game.
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I have yet to play a killer who hasn't straight up tunneled a single person out of the game since MMR was introduced.
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That actually makes sense. But this is not that much of MMR issue again, more like a bad interaction with revamped ranking system.
That might be solved if ranking system will be adjusted though. For example, if they'll remove depipping completely, or at least make it harder in high ranks.
MMR has nothing to do with competing though. People are playing more because they want to try something new.
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I don't want it until they address high-level DBD.
If I'm going to be sentenced to it, I'd like it to not be actual hell.
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They are testing it because it's really hard. Other games are using simple ELO systems usually, and this game requires something more complicated
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Because it is nearly impossible for an automated system to detect player skill in this game.
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That's not true. While you won't have a precise number that completely determines your skill, you'll have an approximate number that will give you relatively fair games, and that's all what MMR should do. That's the same thing ranks are trying to do, MMR should just do that better.
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Same goes for any game, really. But most mmr systems are inherently flawed due to that fact.
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Well.. we at least need a better system than current emblems/ranks to try to approximately detect the skill level.
and I have yet to see Someone suggest a better system. Current matchmaking is just bad, even if it was working as intended..
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Only thing it's genuinely missing is finetuning in the form of allowing people to say if they gave up/felt sorry and farmed/had something come up irl but didn't want to dc, to take such matches into account
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People that are against the SBMMR can be boiled down to 3 different types:
- Streamers
- 4 man SWF death squads
- derankers
All 3 have the same thing in common. They fear that they can´t stomp easier targets anymore. Since the first 2 would be constantly matched against each other, which would be a sweatfest (for them).
Everyone else will just benefit from the new system.
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Yeah, that's true. These matches will kinda mess with your MMR. I hope BHVR is filtering these matches at least to a degree.
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One argument which makes sense is not wanting to go against the "sweatiest" players on the other side. But I doubt most would get to that position unless you're a bit "sweaty" yourself
I.e. you might be very good at killer but if in addition to that you consistently run 4 slowdowns/gen perks, extremely good addons and slug for the 4k every match I'm not sure what else you would expect.
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By that logic, why have a ranking system at all?
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not right now I'd say. I know i'm not 'good', though I've been able to hold my ground well against highranks, but I'm often.... too nice? and right now i'm getting paired with people with less than 10 hours into the game (not that I mind, make the killer challenges a lot easier)
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I am not sure if that's even wrong tbh
Playing against experienced but nice killer is much better for newer survivors than playing against newer killer who tries to camp everyone he catches
It makes sense that the game allowes you to play casually if you want
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TUNNELING IS AN MMR ISSUE, I've met multiple people that are having ######### game after ######### game because of it.
How do you 100% win games as killer without question?
get someone out early.
run a bunch of chase and regression perks.
run good addons.
I can't get behind a system they won't even explain to us. That's my biggest issue.
NO game with an mmr system HIDES IT FROM YOU.
Its ######### ridiculous.
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NO game with an mmr system HIDES IT FROM YOU.
That's just 100% false. Most games I've played with MMR hide it from you. They have a generic rank (like DbD's ranks) that they use, usually goes bronze->silver->gold->platinum->diamond, but your MMR? No, that's hidden. They also don't tell you how it works, except in very loose terms (you know, like BHVR did it).
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If the mmr is invisible then why should I even care about it I much prefer seeing my rank numbers in games
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the new mmr is clearly big #########, you don't come across a part that is balanced. and after ten games, we find a balanced game. you just have to win it and you fall back on ten unbalanced parts
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after we complained that there are tunnels or facecamper pfffffff its going to be even worse now, there is no more pleasure as before. there is so much to do as a priority such as the hitbox bug, the wait too long depending on the hour, the bug map we get stuck in a bush. no he has to piss off the world with their mmr when he was very long before
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flawed argument, its nearly impossible for us to even decide what skill is in this game.
but in the end it does not matter, you dont get proper consistent matches now, and you probably wont in the future....soo nothing changes so what is the problem.
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How is that an MMR issue if that's how gameplay works?
If you always sweat your ass to tunnel someone ASAP at some point you'll face survivors able to deal with that.
Then those people will probably come to the forum to complain how horrible MMR is and how it makes them sweat every game...
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Well, you'll be able to do so after the test ends
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That is one of my biggest irks with mmr I really hope they consider having atleast something visible
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Several games do that. Usually they have a casual and ranked mode (or multiple of both) and ranked MMR is visible, but the casual queues also use the same system and it's hidden.
It'd be insufferable anyway, people already start posting their ranks on here to support their arguments despite them not meaning much (red ranks both sides btw)
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I am actually pretty sure that when MMR will come permanently ranks will actually matter way more than now to see if someone is good, because rank drops will be more severe. If every month your ranks drop to 20 and you see red ranks in your lobby - these are probably people who play a lot and they are probably good, not just some goofs who grinded their red ranks for a year.
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iirc, Valorant also hides your individual MMR.
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It's a stupid system that has proven time and time again to fail. Played against a team with a rank 18 and a rank 15 who seemed like they had just installed the game. I'm rank 1 and have 1,000 hours.
This new system can work if bhvr stops making the game miserable for new players every time they test it.
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agree. What i meant though it that it seems as if the game equals 'experienced and nice' with 'low skill level', which... is not great
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My only concern is that it won't work properly and, let's be honest, BHVR's track record is dicey at best.
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Fair enough. But then we are still stuck with current emblem/rank based matchmaking. Which is bad AND doesn’t work properly.
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I know. They asked for a valid argument against it. It seems a pretty reasonable one.
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the times and times failing we’re acknowledged by the devs though. They were always working on the system and improving it.
the old system has proven all the time to not work properly as well. We NEED another matchmaking system.
also i guess the rank 15 and 18 claimed they were on those ranks in end game chat? Because you can’t see them right now. Are you certain they were not in a SWF? That they actually didn’t have more experience and just deranked intentionally or due to rank reset?
in the end, this was one match out of many. You are not seeing the overall big data, statistics and analysis. Previous testphases had flawed results. Current one will also probably not be implemented permanently as is. And no matchmaking system will ever be able to guarantee perfect matches. You can’t tell me you didn’t have matches like that with current matchmaking.
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