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pressing E = bypass of your efforts, and that's not ok
I was playing Hag trying to get her adept on coldwind. I placed a trap in a specific spot in shack, foreseeing a chase leading there where I would need it later. Sure enough when I chase an injured person into the shack, they step on the trap. I teleport immediately, swing, and they pressed E to make the distance to shack pallet. I cannot think of any way they did anything to deserve getting that chase extended so much. No skill, no intelligent usage... The only thing they did was equip DH and press E. I strategically placed that trap there with the specific intent of using it, minutes ahead of time. It is so frustrating to make a good play and get ######### for it.
If you think DH is fine, please explain to me what this person actually did that was smart or skillful. It certainly wasn't pressing E. It looks to me like they just get free things by merit of having DH equipped.
Comments
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I feel like DH needs a rework, but I’m not sure what it could be
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I agree, DH is very strong (maybe to strong) in the right hands. I kinda doubt that they will nerf it though.
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That is the use of DH, to dodge your attack and give them basically a semi third health state.
It does not have to be skillful or intelligent, that is just how the perk works.
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hmm I don’t know, maybe they don’t “deserve” it much like killers don’t “deserve” kills when they camp or tunnel but they are still part of the game that it’s still consider a strat. Much like pressing E on a PERK that by definition gives you a little bit of an advantage on specific situations much like the one you describe?
Oh, what do I know. They should just make a perk where you can freeze a survivor then maybe that might make you happy?
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Change it to immunity from a hit, remove the lunge, extend the i-frames by a second or so.
Now Killers 'hit' the Survivor and get the whole weapon hit slowdown. That is all. No DH for distance. Just DH to absorb a hit & make distance via Killer slowdown.
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That would be very, very busted. They'd still make any pallet/window during the wipe, get out of the gate for free at a further distance than current DH, etc.
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Generally it's pretty obvious when a survivor has dh so in a chase it's very easy to bait out and takes mere seconds hence the meme "exhausted on the ground", however, in your situation it's a bit more circumstantial and given it's on a trap trigger you don't have the option BUT you are playing hag and traps are so disgustingly strong is it right to remove any hope of a survivor surviving one when crouching past it isn't an option.
Had the trap been on a second floor window, next to a vault or the survivor walking past it with sb, the same distance and safety could have been obtained in exchange for exhaustion so I'm gonna have to side with dh on this one, but as someone who plays a lot of killers I do know the pain.
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i can see two ways of addressing this issue without completely reworking the Perk:
1) add an activation requirement to it. something the Survivor has to go out of their way for to achieve - we can make it gen time, totems cleansed, chase time, etc as long as it requires them to perform a certain action that they otherwise might not do. but just handing it to them for free every chase is just not good gamedesign, sorry.
2) add a significant downside to it using it. for example, you use Dead Hard, but inflict yourself with the Hindred status effect for a long time. or we make it like Decisive & Co and limit its maximum amount of uses each trial to something like 3 usages. to make it actually require some thought whether you wish to use the Perk or not, with an punishment in place when you misuse it.
right now its literally just "press E and immediately outplay your opponent". could you imagine a Killer power where all the Killer has to do is press a single button and immediately win the chase? yep, sounds like Nurse. kinda ironic how everyone views Nurse as this overpowered figure because she can kill an oponent no matter their skill level just by pressing a button, yet DH is hailed as this holy grail of Survivor Perks.
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So you want turn this perk into Styptic Agent?
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Given that a variety of perks and killer powers literally do force the survivor to remain in place for a period of time to mitigate them (IE - Deep Wound, Legion, Trapper, Plague, Pig, Nemesis, Doctor, and so on), you're best off ignoring their weak rebuttal attempt.
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people have suggested when a survivor dead hards, they can’t interact with a window or pallet for a few seconds.
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DH rework EZ mode. Give the Survivor the invulnerability for a time period instead of the Dash. Rip E for Distance.
This way Survivor can have DH do exactly the same, avoid a hit, and killer will only know when the swing doesn't work but at least killer can attempt swings any time and not worry about E artificially making chases longer than they should be.
Alot of people complain about gen speeds but they fail to realize the killer objective process and the maps is why gens seem fast. Maps are too big and chasing someone takes too long because of perks like DH which have been weaponized instead of being a defensive mechanic, same as pre change DS, doing gens in killers breath range and being protected by DS was weaponizing imunity.
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Not a rework but a risk factor to it. DH is a second chance perk with no risk involved. A simple fix to it imo would be to just lock survivors interactions for 1-2.5 seconds, this will force the perk to be used as intended and prevent it for being used for distance
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Perks don't need to be skillful. Perks are meant to help you. Where's the skill on using STBFL or Bambozlee then.
Hag is also quite good on countering DH. If you teleport fast enough with a hit most of the time the survivor won't have enough reaction time to use it.
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I agree, DH is a dumb perk. Don't know how to rework it properly though.
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I never understand the skill arguement when it comes to this community. Nothing in the game is hard or greatly skilled in general. Heck, this game is pretty much bs stacked on bs.
Sure DH isn't hard to use, but neither is sprint burst, lithe, ruin, tinkerer or a hag that just puts down traps... and that's it. She just waits for people to trip them and hits ctrl.
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Massively overrated perk, that does not work half the time. And the majority of the people who play this game use it in a way that won't help them. And also if they used their perk in smart way... Then I don't what you mean when you say it requires no knowledge to use it. But it needs a nerf to prevent players from DH over trapper traps, and from the immunity it gives when you get hit by a hatchet.
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Who is making it about us vs them?
I play killer too and I understand how it’s annoying and yet I don’t find the perk unbalanced.
I am responding to the notion of “deserving” when the whole concept of a PERK is to give you that Perk aka. An extra advantage in specific said situations.
That isn’t exactly US vs Them. It’s just common sense.
Exhaustion perks do not need the game to condition them based on a specific killers’ power that’s why some of them are stronger against specific killers and others against other killers. Annoying does not translate to “unbalanced”.
Post edited by Johnny_XMan on4 -
I think this will make the killers thought game of does this person have dead hard 10x worse. way it is now you can at least bait it and see it being used, its even more entirely a guess by what you are suggesting. I think it just remove the I frame entirely, and make extend the lunge a few feet, then it cant be used to much of a panic button face a wall to negate a hit and can only be used for a slight lunge forward.
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I don't see the issue.
...sounds like you should have placed more than one trap at shack so you could catch the survivor post-Dead Hard.
Or... maybe don't immediately m1 like every other Hag on the planet, so you can bait out the Dead Hard and catch them just before the pallet.
If we're talking about pressing a button to gain a health state, Hag does exactly that. She presses a button to teleport and immediately receives a free m1. There is literally no skill involved.
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The only thing I can think of other than just removing or completely reworking the perk is making it so that survivors are hindered while dodging. That way not only is the free distance cut from the dash removed but an opportunity for free distance just from being invulnerable isn't either. This would force it to be used with timing as a high risk high reward perk. You know. The playstyle that is the literal description for david kings perks. High risk high reward. Not braindead get out of jail free.
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I would make it so they can just use it for distance (just like any exhaustion perk) but where they still get hit while using the dash. It would at least encourage a more intelligent use of the perk that could feel like they actually deserved to get away.
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Dead Hard is a B-tier exhaust perk. If you gave the survivor the opportunity to use it, it was a fair play.
They were already injured and the hag trap went off. For any survivor, this adds up to an immediate reactive use of DH on sight/sound of the hag trap going off. It was a totally fair play due to the sudden and possibly unexpected jump scare of the hag trap. It's a rare example where DH shines over Sprint Burst and Lithe.
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You are already assuming they have DH every first chase now, the Dash is just visual confirmation. It's the same scenario except there's no visual indication outside of you not getting the hit. The practical aplication is the same, you'll be waiting for a time where you're close enough to hit but wait and bait them to use DH but since there's no Dash DH being baited is stronger cause you baited it and they got absolutly nothing out of it. The most use they can get out of DH will be while they are injured and they go for a vault or a pallet. They activate DH right before the vault or pallet to nulify your hit but that's a risk since until they reach that point they can get stabbed and not make use of DH.
DH stays strong because baiting it will be harder but once baited it's game over and you're eliminating E for Distance. SO it's a fair trade, harder to bait out but the bait is stronger and it eliminates the weaponization of the perk. How manny times have Survivors purpusefully gotten hit and be injured so they could use the speed boost and Dead Hard to reach an extremely safe spot? Trading a health state for extreme safety and time wasted by killer is definetly worth a health state. With this change you're eliminating that.
Practical example of killer baiting DH: Ghostface using crouch animation. It still works, you can still bait DH out like this but you'll only know if it works when you swing. There's three scenarios, there's DH and you baited, there's DH and survivor time it right, meaning not baited, and there's no dead hard. Either way you'll know. YOu either hit or you miss. The big difference here becomes Killers can decidide their timming for baiting and swining.
Let's say DH gave 2 seconds of imunity, by timming alone you can know wether a survivor has or doesnt have DH. And if they have it you as killer can change the timings and mind game them. If they know you want to bait it then don't bait it, they'll be looking for the animation, if instead of crouching as Gf you just get closer then you've changed your aproach you changed the timing of your attack thus timing DH gets harder for Survivor. IF everytime you're in range for a swing they activate DH then you just keep going for how long DH is active for. In this scenario the only way Survivors can make effective use out of it is like i said when they are near a vault or pallet, they can use DH when they are close to those locations.
Now killers get a new off meta perk. Unrelenting now has a place, recover faster from failing swings, meaning you can take more risks with swings and reduce the penalty for missing.
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Ok what did you do that skillful yourself? Placing one trap in the shack? huh pressing m2 is more skillful than pressing E? Hag is already pretty much free hits killer and dh is only viable counter and you are complaining?
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If dh didn't also have a press e to die connotation I would be more inclined to this. But with how terrible the synch issues the servers have I just don't see it being an acceptable change.
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Deadhard is fine, all exhaustion perks give you distance so if someone reaches a window/pallet because of deadhard they would’ve reached it with other exhaustion perks too.
Knowing how to use deadhard definitely takes some skill, I’m sure alot of people who used it for the first time used it to dodge hits while experienced players use it to reach a window/pallet to prolong the chase. If they ever nerf deadhard there will be 4 sprintbursts every game which is way more annoying.
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The distance is what makes it obnoxious, to be honest. It erases mistakes and multiple microplays that lead to an overall outplay by the killer.
Granted, it is often buggy and doesn't function properly, but that's a different conversation altogether.
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If they nerf the distance the perk becomes very bad/luck based if you'll end up exhausted on the ground. If they nerf the i-frames / remove them entirely people will still use it for distance and killers will still complain. If they nerf both then it will be garbo and literally everyone will just run Sprint Burst.
This is the problem with trying to change DH it's very touchy balance-wise.
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It is so frustrating, against good survivors with a m1 killer, you basically have to catch them 3 times during looping before they go down( the 2nd time you catch them during a loop because you made a good mindgame/moonwalk, whatever, they will use the deadhard for distance to still reach the vault/pallet).
I think many things in the game, like deadhard, would profit from a rework, but lets be honest, (ebony) moris were so long in the game, keys still are. Insta heal and styptic ? Some addons are busted, why do the strongest killers (with their basekit) get the most busted addons, spirit addons, blight alchemist ring, nurse range addons...., the nurse can proxy camp hooks from like half the map away, she can eat a DS and even if the survivor holds shift W, he is still in range and the nurse can easily port in range for the down.
There are some things that are obviously overpowered in the game, there is no arguing about it, but it takes them years to balance simple things out.
With the new mmr the game has become a sweatfest (at the high level), which is interesting for a while, but not so much when each side uses their strongest tools (survivor bring map offerings for coldwind/haddonfield, styptic/instaheal and meta perks and killer play nurse blight spirit, ruin undying corrupt pop, op addons and tunnel /proxy camp ,...)
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Well, the survivor had Dead Hard, noticed you placed the trap, and prepared to use his resources to force the trap to trigger while timing it perfectly so he would get out unscathed. From his perspective, you just placed a trap in a location that every hag would place it, making you the person who "didnt do anything to deserve a hit" in that chase, making you the person who didnt deserve to shorten the chase so much just because you placed a trap that literally cannot be removed without a very specific item that very few people tend to bring.
The counter argument could easily be made that if you had waited 1 second before you would swing, you would have baited out the DH and gotten the down. Essentially, you were too greedy for a down while being fully aware the survivor could carry DH in that scenario. Let alone that you could have placed a second trap next to the killershack pallet and essentially guarantee a hit too.
There are cases where I would agree DH can be a bit too strong for what it does, just like I can think of cases where NOED is extremely unbalanced. But there are plenty of cases where it's fine. Like survivors having plenty of time to cleanse all the totems before finishing the final gen, or having a tiny bit of patience.
There are millions of cases in a chase where you hit a survivor, and there was absolutely nothing that survivor could have done to avoid that hit. Especially when it comes to a Hag. Seriously, the only counter a Hag has is flashlights. If there is no flashlight, good luck trying to unhook any teammates without heavily risking having both people on the hook.
Yeah, it sucks for the killer, but guess what? It's not a single player game. Both sides need to at least feel they could have done something, and in this scenario, you could have. Remove Dead Hard, and you remove not only people being able to extend a chase through a pallet, but you also screw over every single survivor that doesnt have dead hard as there is no reason for you to wait out a hit. That second of hesitation allows players without Dead Hard to spin you out.
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I really hope they nerf it since you guys keep crying about it, then I'm gonna laugh when you see 4 Sprint bursts every game, lol. That is wayyy more annoying than DH, especially considering it doesn't even work half of the time. 😂
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At the end of the day sprint burst tilts me more than dead hard
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I love when killers complain that a perk works. And speaking of, do you have any idea how often Dead Hard does not work? When the devs destroy DH from all the killers' constant complaining, I wonder what you will do when survivors use a perk that works 100% of the time. Killer mains won't be able to handle it.
I think Pop needs to be reworked. All killers have to do is push a button to undo all my work.
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To use pop you have to hook a survivor and then find a gen in the next 45 sec that has enough progress to be worth kicking. And even then its 'only' 25%. This is way more balanced than E to outplay.
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When I'm playing Clown, I just raise a bottle for a split second and then lunge, works almost every time. It's a strong perk, but I really have no problem with it at all. Baiting out DH is a skill everyone develops as a killer and it's fun that way.
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This too. Placing traps at shack isn't any more skillful.
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Sorta like when you get tunneled or camped at the start of the match?
It sounds like the killer successfully found you and you didnt hide well enough.
Its frustrating, but you have to be able to accept that it happens at times.
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You say it doesnt take skill to Press E, but it also doesnt take skill to put a trap down either. It dont think it requires using your brain either
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Well to play devil's advocate, you could very well say Dead Hard rewarded them for their quick reaction time, saving it for when they thought it was truly nescesary, etc., and it payed off.
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skill
/skil/
noun
- the ability to do something well
1) I just noticed curse words show properly in quotes while I type this post.
2) Your trap placement was smart and skillful and required thought.
3) Their bringing Dead Hard instead of another perk carried opportunity cost.
4) Maybe that lag stuff in the last patch they are working on will improve this. They aren't done with their changes on that front.
5) Maybe they set off your trap on purpose and envisioned the whole scenario you just described but one-upped you. Survivors definitely set off traps on purpose. Especially loopers. It could have been part of a grand plan by them.
6) I don't know if Dead Hard is fine, but their Dead Hard usage required skill. An example of a perk that does not require skill to use is Botany Knowledge. They timed pressing E correctly and it beat you (unless lag beat you). It's not automatic. I myself can rarely get it right, so it does take skill. It's one thing to use it to create distance. It's another thing to time it so perfectly that you get hit right as you're invulnerable.
And I've beaten many Dead Hard users who don't use it at the right time. While it's not a perk I've used much (bad bloodweb luck amirite), I have about an 80% failure rate in its usage, meaning pressing E does take skill. Saving it for the right time in the match also takes skill.
7) Maybe you swung too early. When I play Hag and teleport to a trap, I sometimes wait to attack because of them potentially having Dead Hard. If I touch their butt and they didn't use DH, they probably don't have it. She has 4.4 m/s speed, so I basic attack on her with caution. Also, because of Momentum Built-Up (explanation below). I'm not saying you messed up because of momentum build-up, but I want to mention it anyway.
Momentum Build-up
Due to how a Lunge Attack works from a technical Point of View, it is absolutely imperative to build up a minimum of momentum before initiating a Lunge Attack, in order to maximise the available range.
Since Killers do not accelerate to their top speed instantly, initiating a Lunge Attack prior to reaching top speed will cause it to have less range.
This is a problem almost exclusive to a post-Blink Nurse and a post-Teleport Hag, as both Killers have zero momentum right after using their Power. It is therefore advised to momentarily wait before initiating the Lunge Attack after using the Power of those Killers, allowing them to build up some momentum and reaching top speed first, ensuring that the Lunge Attack will have its full range available.
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DS is fine IMO. If anything, maybe get rid of the invulnerability window, so it is just a dash.
I'm just a lowly purple rank killer/survivor so that is my experience.
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I don't like it either. But the perk is fine and was utilized properly. Actually it needs to be fixed because you still got players getting downed even when they DH. Regardless of me getting irritated with how it's used during chases, it's still acceptable.
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First, I would like to address your shack scenario: I honestly don't quite understand the problem. The survivor ignites i.e. so you can just relaunch the trap and wait for him to trigger the next trap or drive him in that direction. As a hag you have a certain area trapped anyway. If each triggered trap would be a free hit, the survivors could also give up immediately. In addition, after triggering a trap, the pov is changed, so that dh is often uncontrolled.
And on the subject of "it doesn't need a skill to press E": I see that differently, because you have to use dh at the right time during a chase.
Counter question would also be "what is the skill that gives a killer an instadown at noed, make your choice, devour?" just because you go off hook or survivors don't make totems? That sounds really hard and difficult. Or bamboozle? Spirit fury? Pop? Ruin? Nurses? Sorry, but I just find it funny and also a bit one-sided when killers whine about survivor perks, although there are plenty of comparable ones on the killer side.
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actually it is ok
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Maybe some here should just understand that most perks in dbd have hardly anything to do with skill. It is simply a selection of skills that you take into the game, no more and no less. These can be coordinated, should be fun for the user, compensate for the weaknesses of the player and provide variety. Of course there are perks that are used more than others. BUT: perks do not have to require a certain skill! They should only correspond to the conditions of their strength.
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You can't use DH unless you're injured and it's very easy to mess up. It's really common to DH into an obstacle or to use it too late and end up getting downed while activating exhaustion at the same time. Really, DH is just giving someone one chance to potentially avoid the dying state. It's not a guarantee and it can't be spammed.
I don't see how it's unbalanced, even if it can be frustrating to go against.
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DH for distance is it's best use. I got downed MID DH the other day. The server was like "yeah sure, oh wait no". I have a nice collection of exhausted on the ground screenshots I am gonna dump on support one day.
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its a strong perk, that dosent work for its correct purpose most of the time.
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DH is Fine because = easy Counter , same goes for noed and as many perk in this game stop wanting everything nerfed use your brain to play properly . enough to see ppl complaining for that and this and when you face them they go in a straight line like a bot . use mindgame and play with your red stain this way you will go better. there is no shortcut
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