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People who say dead hard has no counter…

Are you also advocating for tinkerer to be changed, as there is no way to avoid it being activated? Compared to other information perks such as BBQ, discordance, etc there is no workaround, and thus zero counterplay. You can’t advocate for DH to be changed because of lacking counter if you don’t hold the same standards for tinkerer.

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Comments

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Doesn’t matter, the argument for changing DH is that it has no counter, neither does tinkerer.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Okay so killers should just start using coup to counter dead hard then, problem solved! You can’t call psychic prediction of what perks someone is going to use counter.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Coup de grace also exists, why don’t killers use it to counter dead hard then? Gens more often than not are in a building, behind a T&L wall, etc.

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,809

    The Undetectable isn't the good part of Tinkerer, it's the information.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867
    edited August 2021

    Yeah, exactly. It gives that on top of arguably better info than BBQ and discordance give, and that’s all they give.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Let’s hear this magical way to counter tinkerer activating like there is for BBQ and discordance. Not doing gens?

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    You can tell how biased people are on here, people saying spine chill is a counter to DH get upvotes, but me saying coup counters dead hard, nothing lol

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005

    Information, huh? Then try to explain how the killer is supposed to counter all the information sharing via comms in SWFs?

  • BasementDweller
    BasementDweller Member Posts: 482

    Because having 1 gen pop = 1 regular hit but with a longer reach, doesn't seem like a good trade-off. While gens are behind some kind of structure, you can still position yourself (at most places) where you have a better viewpoint.

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,809

    Whataboutism at its finest.

    Though, information sharing isn't anything. Yes it'll make any team coordinated but they need to be decent players alone or else you'll still win, least in my own personal experience.

    How do you counter it? Simple, play better and prey on the overaltruism. How do you counter a tournament squad? You don't. You hope BHVR finally buffs solo basekit so they can give killers buffs across the board.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Spine chill won’t be active if the killer is smart enough to notice it and look away

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Yeah, that’s really helpful against nurse and blight…

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,809

    Yeah because Freddy and Blight are two easy killers to do that to.

    Information perk of Tinkerer being uncountable in solo and information between swf mates has literally zero correlation and if you see there is one please fire your optician with immidiate effect

  • BadMrFrosty
    BadMrFrosty Member Posts: 1,100
    edited August 2021

    The people who care the most bleat the loudest. BVHR has had 5 years to fix several glaring issues, and it hasn't been done in that time. Indeed, they seem stuck in a time loop that requires them to take a step back for each step forward. If only my job gave me a 5 year window to fix serious problems, holy #########. That'd be heaven.

    Of course, we all know that it doesn't work that way in most places. But hey, that's cool - it's going to take a Blizzard tier wake up for them to do anything, lacking competition and all. It's just a shame it's gotten here.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    I mean tinkerer does have a counter.

    Doing gens seperatly. If 2 tinkerers proc there is only one place the killer can go.

    I'm sure there are examples from the killers perk list you can use but tinkerer really isn't one of them

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,716

    Yes - The issues are so endemic that the game has been saddled with the burden of continuous growth since Beta.

    Given that this was their most successful year in terms of player count (and most likely financially) 5 years into the game, perhaps you should drop off a resume and show them what they're doing wrong/how it's done.

    Better still, why not fire off a resume to one of the companies that attempted to compete and folded like a sheet of paper?

    I am sure your insight and input, as well as your stellar attitude, will be valuable assets :3

  • BadMrFrosty
    BadMrFrosty Member Posts: 1,100
    edited August 2021

    This isn't about me, so I'd ask that you keep it on the topic, thanks. Going to a common fallacy (appeal to accomplishment, specifically) isn't going to make your point look good. My point still stands, that 5 years after this game has come out, it still has an insane number of glaring issues that are known about and not being addressed. Or, if I were to give the benefit of the doubt, they're being addressed at a snail's pace. With all the success you claim BVHR has had, especially this year, you'd think those resources could go into hiring more people for Q/A, programming, or something else that could add additional value to the game's long term health.

    However, rather than acknowledging my argument, you've instead decided to deflect my criticism by saying "Oh but the game is showing growth, so clearly what you're saying doesn't hold water. Why don't you apply and do better?" Yeah, that's not going to work here.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 5,327

    There are perkless ways to counter both, which have worked well for me.

    For Dead Hard, if I suspect they have it, I will bait them and get them to force the Dead Hard. After the initial burst, they have a period where they are slower (however brief) before returning to the normal 4.0m/s. So, forcing it allows the killer to still keep close and will secure that hit in most cases I've forced them. Otherwise, Dead Hard gives a brief boost to get to a pallet, which is just a good way to get to protection sooner.

    For Tinkerer, there are a few examples: If you are watching the rate of the gen and it gets to about 70%, and the sound of the killer's terror radius suddenly dips, then that's a very clear sign to be aware. Beyond that, using eyes and ears is always useful, and putting yourself by the side of the gen with the best view around you is necessary. Also, like Myers in Tier 1, killers will be making some sort of sound when almost on you, and although it is tight, a good ear may get you out of harm's way.

    Anyway, those 2 perks have counters even without taking into account perks like Spine Chill, Perception and Coupe de Grace. They're tried and tested ways of countering both perks.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,716
    edited August 2021

    I'm fairly certain that I imply in my first sentence that the issues you feel are pressing or endemic aren't seen as such by a majority, and also touch on the fact that any competition has swiftly died, which is totally strange when going up against a game that's apparently going to die if 'competition' looks its way.

    I most likely could have used a better framing device, for sure.

    I don't need to argue with you or prove anything, given the reality of the situation and state/popularity of the game.

    Edited to add - In the interest of complete transparency, I do think that their previous gen optimization issues should be a larger priority.

  • BadMrFrosty
    BadMrFrosty Member Posts: 1,100

    Alright, that tells me what I need to know. Have a good day.

  • GrimoireWeiss
    GrimoireWeiss Member Posts: 1,452

    Perks aren't supposed to be counterable, I honestly don't have a problem with neither. Tinkerer imo was a bit overbuffed, but it's not impossible to deal with, same with Dead Hard.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    How am I going to communicate that strategy to my solo queue teammates? Why are people only ever looking at the game from SWF POV, so annoying.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Not what I said at all. I make a completely fair comparison and suddenly because it doesn’t agree with your opinion, I’m just a troll account. Seriously, why is it so controversial to say anything is too strong on the killer side? But it’s complete consensus to say SWF is OP, half the killers need a buff, etc. This sub is so blatantly killer sided, which is very strange as much more people play survivor.

  • NomiNomad
    NomiNomad Member Posts: 3,181

    I'd be very fine with deleting both these perks, thanks.

  • WexlerWendigo
    WexlerWendigo Member Posts: 1,867

    Already disproven. Perceptive killers will know when someone has spine chill, look at Otz, and be able to counter it.

  • PalletsAndHooks
    PalletsAndHooks Member Posts: 989

    Tinkerer counters: spine chill, being mindful of timing/progress (coupled with blast mine)

    Dead hard counters: instadowns, locker grabs, baiting

  • Msterflex
    Msterflex Member Posts: 126

    You did t think this one through friend. Spinchill and depending on gen location your own eyes can counter tinkerer

  • Kira15233
    Kira15233 Member Posts: 473

    Dead Hard obviously has counters, Servers and walls 🤣

  • MigrantTheGreat
    MigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,379

    Tinkerer - Be Vigalente

    BBQ - Get out of range or hide in a locker

    Dead Hard - Bait it out

    Dead Hard (for distance) - No counter

    I don't think DH needs to be nerfed, I think it needs a risk factor.

  • DeliciousFood
    DeliciousFood Member Posts: 464

    It has no counter, that's why despite all its jank and awful results at times, it's probably the most popular exhaustion perk. You cannot counter a good survivor using dead hard to extend a loop or chain another loop because even with coup, they'll likely just use it to reach a pallet and give you a delicious taste of hit validation.


    The issue with dead hard is that it can have WAY too much impact for ONE perk. It can turn one survivor into a complete game changer and deny the killer the momentum they need and probably earned if they pushed the survivor to using it. 30 extra seconds (varies of course) is MASSIVE in the grand scheme of things. Now, consider this on 3 or 4 survivors, which is ABUNDANTLY common in red rank queues. You suddenly have survivors that ALL have the potential to extend chase by a fair amount that you likely can't even counter. Even with coup, you only have 5 stacks that you MUST make count, and let's face it, you're not always in a position too, let alone some stacks being consumed despite not even going for a lunge, or needing it to get a first hit quickly.


    It isn't the same with sprint burst where you can cut off but also needs to be forcibly triggered at the start of the chase. It's strong, and some would say stronger than dead hard, but I find it much more manageable when you're experienced at the game than dead hard used by good players.


    Also coup ######### sucks why would you ever run it even on a chill, no-slowdown build? It's jank and can only be used five times, and that's if you're struggling lol.


    What to do with dead hard? I think it should be reworked in a way that it's no longer a 'Press E to extend chase' and moreso a 'dodge' that's more consistent than what it is now. No distance gained but the killer whiffing can go a long way.

  • baseballfan4877
    baseballfan4877 Member Posts: 364

    bad bait thread