Perks sometimes matter more than Skill

this game quite literally can not be competetive, due to exactly the point you just brought up: RNG.

it has way too much of an decisive factor on everything that happens in it for this game to ever be truly balanced - which is exactly why i think MMR is such a horrible idea btw (because there is no way MMR could ever take this incredible amount of RNG into account to work and rank an individuals skill properly).

RNG in this game absolutely doesnt stop with maps aswell - there are self unhook attempts, chests, spawn locations, loop setups, the Killer you go up against (technically speaking not RNG, but still nothing you have any controll over as Survivor so i count it - same with Bear Trap escapes and Jigsaw Boxes Keys btw), skillchecks, the bloodweb (for those of us who like to bring specific Add Ons / Items), etc.

there is no way this could ever be balanced peoperly and made competetive - especially not since BHVR has acknowledged the imbalances and said that whatever happens, they will keep this RNG aspect. So at best they will slightly reduce it at certain points, but it will still mostly be the deciding factor for your matches.

@SilentPill

Right. Same can be said about matches that do not have any of those perks. Survivors do not stand a chance of the killer decides to go from “Let me to patrol gens” to “Let me throw and get 4-5 hooks and camp because I am bad” … even then survivors need those perks to be able to get a decent win. It has nothing to do with the perks changing the game for THEM when they are reacting to a sudden change of playstyle.

My response was basically to your notion that they can be game changers when they are extremely situational.

As for the streamer reference, I am not going to trash talk on here, but let’s just say I wouldn’t place my bets on him.

Take away dead hard, half the survivor player basis can't loop.

For me, the game is unplayable without Ruin. If that cleanses early, I am probably going into troll mode.

To be fair,those three perks are especially strong because of the influence they can have on killer behaviour.

Survivor got unhooked right in front of me?Need to ignore him because he will have DS and BT.

3 survivors are downed and i see the last survivor?I should start to hook them before someone can use UB.

Do killers not realize their job is to stop us from doing gens? To win, we need to do gens. Why should survivors make the game easier for their opponents?

Toolboxes have been nerfed into the ground, I see no reason to even search chests anymore. I am not afraid to play injured, I'm not looting the chest in the basement, praying for a medkit. Small Game has been nerfed into uselessness now, I'll do totems if I come across them and YOLO the risk of NOED now instead of taking the time to find all five before the last gen is done. Dead Hard breaks the game on console, it's unusable, and doesn't even work half the time anyway, and DS has been destroyed. I hardly ever see anyone run it anymore. And thank god there is a chance to counter a killer who slugs. I don't know why there shouldn't be one, other than the fact killer mains don't like it.

So use anti totem perks if it annoys you so much to go against ruin/undying.

I kind of agree. A one time use perk like Unbreakable or Blood Warden can completely swing the match if the circumstances come together just right. (And please don’t think I’m comparing those perks to each other, I’m not. They’re just random examples.)

But for the most part, I think playstyle and adaptability are the biggest factors. So many people are unable to adapt their tactics when playing the game. Sometimes, immediately healing under the hook after a save is a smart play, and sometimes it’s a death sentence (looking at you, Wraith players). Some survivors make their perks obvious and playing around them can win you the match. Sometimes you have to adapt what you do to the map you get.

I will say though, once I accepted that this game is HUGELY influenced by RNG, I got a lot less mad at it. Unlucky totem spawn? Oh well. Unlucky map? Just gotta make the best of it. I may have to deal with bullshit this match, and someone else will have to deal with bullshit the next match. Que sera, sera.

Getting healed does NOT disable Decisive Strike. As long as the one with Decisive Strike does not do any action that progresses survivor objectives it does not get disabled, so others can you just fine without disabling it.

You can't keep SB at 99 and if you have to stop working on a gen to do that. It's counter productive.

that’s fair enough I guess.

I'm with you, I don't see how people complain about this combo. I rarely, if ever use this combo anymore. Survivors have too many tools to cleanse them, and cleanse them quickly. I see Small Game and/or Detective's Hunch quite frequently in my matches. Honestly, Ruin/Pop is a better combo than Ruin/Undying. Either Ruin gets cleansed fast and you still have Pop, or they are unable to find/cleanse it and you still get value. Idk, there are just so many other combos, even older ones, that are more reliable: Pop/BBQ, Pop/Thrilling, Pop/Surge, Pop/Tinkerer, etc.

I mean, I do think skill plays quite a big role as well. And I do think that skill most of the times has more effect on which side wins than rng.

I do think there can still be mmr that works fine. It won't be perfect, but even with RNG, I am sure there still is possiblity to tell people's skill level by averaging out all their games.

And I definitely do like the RNG in this game, even if it is a bit much at times. I think it's important, especially when it comes to maps, so maps are never built the exact same.

Why is it unrealistic? If it is RNG, it is sometimes on your side, sometimes not on your side. If it is always not on your side, then it is not RNG anymore.

You can't keep SB at 99% "forever". You can run around with it at 2 secs till it recharges but the moment you stop, you get it back and you have to use it. You can't work on a gen and keep SB at 99%. The moment you run you have to use it. If you want to run around all match with it at 99% just to juke me. Id rather have you do that than working on a gen.

Dead Hard on the other hand, you can keep that in your pocket until you need it. The only real counter to it are killers with one shot mechanics like Billy/Bubba or anything that causes expose.

of course skill also plays a role - but a much less significant one than RNG does.

you can be the best Survivor in the world, if you get a bad map with tons of deadzones, very few pallets and a killer that can decently play around the few loops you got, you will most likely lose that match, even if that Killer was mediocre at best and way below your skill level.

it can also be the exact same way around - you can be the absolutely best Killer in the world and be much better than the average Survivor in your lobby, you can still get destroyed by landing on Cowshed with a long wall chaining into a pallet spawn (the long ones) chaning into shack, chaining into another pallet spawn, chaining into another long wall chaining into yet another pallet spawn (yes this setup can actually exist and its BS).

map RNG, tile RNG, pallet amount, spawn locations, certain killer powers (Bear Traps and Reverse Bear Traps), skillchecks, basement spawn, etc.

there is a LOT of RNG in this game - which isnt necessarily a bad thing mind you, as it makes each game unique - but its almost impossible to actually determine an individualy skill when RNG is the decisive factor for so many things.

sometimes every survivor spawns in a different corner of the map and 3 gens get done super quickly - does that mean the killer played bad and didnt apply enough pressure?

sometimes you get a long wall setup into shack (looking at Father Campbells Chapel here) - does that make the killer bad at chases because he cant catch someone around that setup?

sometimes you spawn in a huge deadzone and the Killer is close enough to almost instantly find you - does that make you bad at the game as a Survivor?

sometimes a Survivor escapes your Bear Trap before you even managed to vault the window they got trapped behind (mid chase) - does that mean the trap placement was bad or that you are a bad Trapper?

the answer to all of these (and many more): no.

you had absolutely no controll over any of these scenarios, therefore your and your opponents skill level didnt matter - RNG decided you'd get screwed over, so you did.

MMR could work in this game. it absolutely could - but for that to happen, the amount of RNG would have to be cut down drastically in order to create actually fair and balanced matches every game for both sides, so your and your opponents skill level can properly be judged by the system.

but that is not going to happen, so why on earth would we want a matchmaking system that requires an actually balanced and competetive game to even function? DbD is none of those things, so why pretend it was?

@mustang

Not sure if you were following the context in which I asked the other member. I didn’t mean old DS, I meant new DS. A survivor cannot touch a gen unless they want their DS to stay active.

As for the other examples, I don’t see how someone flashlight clicking trying to get your attention means you have to pay attention to them. At that point it is obvious that they have DS and they are just trying to get downed by you, so you can lose focus of the other survivor. This is like beginner killer 101.

I’ll gladly down them, and continue to chase the other survivor. That is 2 survivors not on a gen. So that strat doesn’t work on good killers. They are trying to get a situation in which DS CAN work. Also, depending on how I am paced as killer I will sometimes take the DS stun just because I would rather deal with it then, than later when a gate is open or when they are forced to trade and no longer have it.

My point was that DS has to follow step 1/2/3 , you cannot bring DS and expect to get to step 3 while skipping steps 1/2, unless it is a very situational scenario.

That's my bad, misread that, thought you were talking old DS. I agree that it's fairly clear a survivor is trying to use DS when they're doing those kinds of things, and the proper counterplay would be to ignore them as killer (as much as you can, bodyblocking aside). I also agree that it's usually not going to be very effective against good killers, but I guess I'd argue that it fits the definition of using DS offensively, as the survivor can play quite a bit more recklessly than they otherwise would, knowing that they have protection. Having DS active basically allows them to force a choice on the killer - try to ignore the survivor A, and have them potentially extend a chase with survivor B by using flashlight blinds or bodyblocking, or go after the survivor A and eat the DS. Slugging survivor A also takes time and can extend the chase with survivor B. Whether or not it's an effective strategy, the survivor can still waste some of the killer's time doing this stuff if they really want to

I'm not sure any of this is even problematic at this point, I guess my only argument was that I've seen DS used offensively quite a bit. Not as much as in the past, but it does still happen

@Gamedozer7

The unhooker loses his DS the moment they unhook. It is no longer possible to do that.