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Otzdarva noed experiment
Comments
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Might've described it in another thread, actually...
'Perk tax' is where survivors are constantly told to fix bad game design by picking up perks.
Spirit OP? Just pick IW.
Camping? Just pick DS/BT.
Tunnelling? Pick DS/BT.
NOED? Bring SG/DetHunch.
Slugging? Bring UB.
Ultimately, if the survivor doesn't want to be at the mercy of the killer for the possibility of having a fun, or even playable game, they need to sacrifice all their perk slots for band-aid perks.
DS, BT and UB are all rather situational perks. Whenever I play killer, they practically never fire unless I make the misplay to fall for a DS bait. But survivors pick them so damn often because they're mandatory if you want to avoid having your game ruined by camping, tunnelling, or slugging.
This idea of NOED, another thing that's no fun to play against, demanding another perk slot just puts more strain on survivor's perk choices, and it's pushing other decent, possibly more fun survivor perks down the list, like FTP, Appraisal, Deception, Diversion, and more.
Some of these game design problems need to be fixed externally as opposed to putting strain on survivor's perk choices.
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Otz is no more an authority on the game than anybody else with too much time on their hands to play this game
Frankly, as long as perks that allow people to cover up their mistakes such as Dead Hard exist, NOED has a right to exist. I don't care how much clout you have.
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I think it's unfair killers with noed are rewarded for bad gameplay. There SHOULD be some type of substance to the perk because its TO free imo.. there is zero value in hex ruin if its not earned. I dont think someone should be able to face camp someone to death as bubba and have noed prompt Indefinitely for endgame. It allows bad killers to get kills they don't necessarily deserve alot of times. It should be something that has to do with hooks like maybe everyone whos been hooked at least once or something is exposed until downed once. But killers that think oh ok well i got my ######### wrecked this game im just gonna face camp this survivor and im gonna smack down this first survivor going for the save and im gonna camp em both kind of mentality is just bad imo.
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Do you think killers have a 'perk tax?'
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Sort of. I think most killers will agree that some form of slowdown perk is almost mandatory. Most will go for Ruin Undying or Corrupt.
We do still get to choose though, as there's multiple options to fill the niche, and you can suffice with two or even one slot filled, so it's less egregious than with survivors.
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C'mon, what hasn't the OP done that It's has?
We're all Equal, remember?
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TLDR!
Cleanse the bones you noob. At most NOED gets one person in the higher ranks, and then the good survivors will cleanse the totem and hook bomb with borrowed time, don’t you worry you little pub scrub, rank 20s I tell ya..
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Exactly, I have recently started to use it because i keep getting sweaty red rank teams.
It is fun! it is also fair so if all survivors find all totems on the map it will not activate.. so then the killer has lost that perk.. i think it is stupid survivors complain about NOED a lot... still do when they end up genrushing and even get a pip. mostly salty when they die to NOED but if you got a pip then good if you safety pipped then good..
The next game may be better for you.
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Your rank is showing.
Dead hard is easily the best survivor perk in the game, when you use dead hard to "dodge a hit" yeah, it doesn't do anything. Dead harding "for distance" when you round a corner and dead hard to a pallet or window that you otherwise missed, extends the chase by an extra 20 seconds at least.
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I don't know why people always say killers who use NOED are bad. I've seen rank 1 killers run it.
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Pssst....I'm gonna let you in on a little secret regarding your magical NOED using, camping Bubba. You ready? Bubba don't need NOED to down and camp you because see, he has this little thing in his hand called a chainsaw. I know it's kinda hard to spot and all, being such a real small and easy to miss detail on the character. But yeah, if a Bubba is gonna camp you, then he's gonna do it just as well, if not better without NOED since he'll have the use of 4 perks all game instead of 3 until EGC.
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Sometimes I run NOED on Bubba to get a down at endgame if I struggle with my chainsaw if you know what I mean. Or if I'm in a lobby and I see a possible SWF.
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I honestly don't know why you would want to run NOED on Bubba outside of the bloodweb RNG screwing you over though. Like if you're leveling a Bubba and you have no other good perks and you need to pick between Deerstalker and NOED then yeah I don't blame you in that case because most of my low level killers use NOED that have been screwed by RNG lol. I had to use it for a long time on freaking Trickster of all people, and same for my Deathslinger lol.
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And you miss the point.
The argument was that DH is unearned, that it rewards players for playing poorly. I point out that it doesn't, unless DH is used properly, which isn't some skill-less endeavour.
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You missed the point.
You said it only gives you 2 extra seconds of chase, i'm saying it doesn't. It also isn't earned, because you get injured to get it, and it covers for your mistakes.
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Eh, that's fair. I personally think that NOED is an issue purely because it feels like it does too much when you don't really need it, while not doing enough in games when you genuinely need it. (Like, games where you are doing well as Killer, if you get to end game with 2 dead and 2 left, NOED is going to annihilate them, especially if you already were keeping up enough pressure during the game where they struggled to even get gens done- let alone bones. Meanwhile, in games where you were already struggling to get hooks, chances are NOED is going to be cleansed immediately (Or the bones are already done), and not really give you the support you need unless the Survivors are super disorganized (ie, Solo or just a messy group), super altruistic, or don't have anything to support against slugging. Mix that with obviously being a late game perk, and I just have a hard time justifying running it over other perks where I know I'll get decent value out of them. (Heck, even solo Devour has been giving good value compared to running NOED.) I just think that it would be nice to be reworked to something that actually gave you support when you need it, instead of feeling like a sort of 'salt in the wound' situation.
Uh... what? Adrenaline and Deliverance are both really popular meta perks that require you to do things to get them to proc. Detective's Haunch and Inner Strength are also popular, and they also require you to do things to get the effect. Another major one is We'll Make It.
There are plenty of perks on both sides that have a lot of stipulations and are fine perks, just like there's perks on both sides that have restrictions that are too heavy or too inconsistent to be worth running. (Secondwind and Gearhead come to mind.) Just like there's plenty of perks that are influenced by actions purely by the other side. (Like Unbreakable or Haunted Grounds).
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Mettle of Man, Inner Strength, We'll Make It, Flash Bang, Blast Mine, stacks of WGLF, Deliverance, Diversion, Head On, Red Herring, Repressed Alliance, Rookie Spirit, Smash Hit, Stake Out, could be an argument for Resilience... there's some survivor perks that must be earned.
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Yeah, it doesn't, -if you use it properly-. But doing so requires you to set it up and use it at the right moment, turning a 'press E to win' perk into a 'use it tactically to win' perk. That means you need to put in effort. Which means you earn it.
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Precisely; NOED doesn't reward bad killers, it punishes negligent survivors.
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It is still by far the most powerful survivor perk in the game where one good use of it on a single survivor can win the entire game for the team. It needs to be dealt with.
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I think one interesting thing to think about with NOED is that if it was basekit no one would care.
NOED is a pain point specifically because it is a surprise that dramatically changes your mid match objectives. If you went into EVERY game knowing you need to totem hunt it wouldn't be as bad. It is a weird uncanny valley style balance issue where buffing it would really nerf it.
Not saying NOED needs to be basekit, but if dull totems were always an end game consideration I suspect NOED would actually be stealth nerfed.
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I also think Noed is hated on so much because people have the mind set that all 5 gens done = match over killer lost. So when they get hit with noed they feel cheated.
That is also wrong though. Just like totems are to survivors, gens are to killers. They are part of the objective sure, but the killer can still have had an epic match even with all 5 gens done. Their job is to kill at the end of the day.
Plus if all 5 gens being completed equaled a fail for the killer then have end game killer perks would make zero sense.
Just more of my thoughts on good old Noed ^^
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100% true, but going from the responses I've seen here so far survivors don't want a secondary objective of any kind.
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If you get trounced that hard by one DH use, you weren't winning anyway.
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Since he used NOED he is a baby killer, that is what every survivor says. So why listen to a baby killer?
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Why do survivors gripe sooo much over NOED??? When I first started as killer other players suggested it. When I got good enough to stay in Red Rank consistently three things would happen.
1.) They cleanse NOED in the time I down, and decide hook someone somewhere after using it.
2.) They cleansed all the dull totems before the end game. So it doesn’t activate.
3.) The team abandons the one sap, and gets a 3-Man Escape. So I still lose. 😂
Never once I have gotten everyone with NOED. Not by itself. With Blood Warden, and No Way Out perhaps. However, those are superior end game perks imo that don’t require NOED to begin with.
I never trust large streamers in regards to things. They’re entertainers, like you said. Meaning a lot of stuff they do would be faked, or staged somehow. They’re no different than a “Mega Church”. In it for the money. What I mean is those big streamers will fight their fanbases, and the fans that recognize the streamers will let them kill/escape. I’ve seen plenty of times in those big streams where the killer lets only the popular streamer escape. Killers dance on the screen, and everything (When I’m survivor killers never do the hokey-pokey). As killer the survivors on their streams make the dumbest plays even inside of the most insane tiles/jungle gyms. Never juking/spinning to dodge. Running in straight lines against a ranged killer. From my experience survivors at Red never do that. They sweat their butts off, spin, and try their best to dodge every single attack. If not where are these lousy players? I want to face them for BBQ/anniversary points! 😂
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Again, your rank is showing. If all 4 survivors split up on gens, a single dead hard buys 30 seconds and you lost 3 gens and didn't even get the down.
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Those 3 gens took 80 seconds, not 30.
And before you say 'that's just ignoring the factors that hinder your theory', that also applies to yours.
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Again, your rank is showing.
How about some math shall we?
Imagine a scenario where a survivor hold w and runs in the opposite direction.
- They don't use pallets
- They don't use vaults
- They don't use perks.
- They don't try to mindgame
- They do nothing but hold w.
Doing so, will make it take 47 seconds for the killer to down the survivor. Now factor in finding the initial survivor, picking them up, walking to a hook, and hooking them, and you just spend around 60-70 seconds. By the time you can walk to any other gen, 80 seconds have just passed, you just lost 3 gens and got 1 hook.
Now let's factor in that the survivor can use pallets, and windows, and vaults (and yes the killer can use their power) but, even if the killer guesses right for both hits to do a mindgame, the survivor is still going to take at least 20 seconds for each hit. Dead hard, when used for distance, effectively gives you a third health state, meaning, even if the killer guesses right 3 times (even with them being 50/50s that is really unlikely) it will still take them 60 seconds to down the survivor. Again, factor in picking them up, hooking them, walking to a hook, finding the survivor etc.
When used correctly, dead hard is a third health state.
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Is not that hard to do totems so noed is fine
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That's all well and good, but you're also assuming the survivors have no trouble finding a trio of safe gens to do. Safe in terms of both the killer's location and proximity to other gens.
If all four survivors spawn together, at least one survivor has to move at least two gens further to avoid 3-genning, and all the while has to avoid drawing chase.
Yes, it's possible to lose 3 gens in one chase.
But that's not even close to the whole match, is it?
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Your rank is still showing. Too bad your steam profile is private so i can't prove it. But i'd say you are playing at a lower level and don't encounter these problems. it is pretty known and obvious that at the highest levels survivors are OP and dead hard definitely contributes to that. When MMR got flipped on, i basically had to play nurse/spirit every game or i got destroyed by organized teams that would easily finish 3 gens in less than 2 minutes.
Unfortunate: https://dbd.onteh.net.au/playerstats/76561198019687649/
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I don't have a problem, therefor I must be bad?
Question mark?
Red rank killers touched almost 70% average kill rate with the latest data.
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Proving my point more. Red ranks are basically meaningless. I'm talking about top tier players that would be like, rank -1.
The data that you are talking about also says that nurse is the worst killer in the game. Do you think that is true?
This data is obviously irrelevant. This says freddy is top tier killer and doc is next? Pig is top tier too? But nurse and blight are the worst ones in the game. Makes sense....
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Yes, sure, let's balance for rank minus one, so no one else can bloody play anymore. Let's make that 70% an 80%!
Everyone knows Nurse is the hardest killer to play.
And she -still- performs just fine at 57%, winning more than losing.
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Never mind.
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Ah yes, it's ok if the game is unbalanced as long as it doesn't affect me!
Also this is a logical fallacy. You can balance a game for all skill levels in mind. for example:
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For example, obviously the problem is gen speed to chase time ratio. But i wouldn't fix the problem by just blanket increasing gen speeds, or necessarily adding a second objective. I would start by fixing the "hold w" situation, and then making small adjustments from there.
For example: If you have a god tile that really good survivors can waste 60 seconds of a killers time at, you should nerf that loop. It isn't going to hurt low level players, because low level survivors don't have the ability to exploit that tile to it's fullest extent and generally get hit 15-20 seconds into the chase. Because of this, if you nerf the tile, you aren't really hurting them, the survivors that go down in 20 seconds are still going to go down.
Lastly, on the opposite end of the spectrum, camping is a serious problem for low level survivors. A facecamping bubba could easily get a 4k at low levels, but at high ranks, all it means is the killer gets 1 kill and survivors all escape, resulting in the killer depipping and 3 of the survivors pipping. As a result, camping (at least the facecamping variety) should be addressed in a systemic way, because it won't really have any impact on high level gameplay, and it would only improve low level gameplay.
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I think the key difference is that Otz said it's not earned, even if it's deserved.
The only time NOED does what it's designed to do is when people rush gens.
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I actually think putting people who havent been hooked to the exposed status would be better. That way it truly does what it's designed to do: punish genrushes.
With that logic, old DS was fine as it was. Old exhaustion was fine as it was. They were perks in the game, there were many of them.
NOED isnt balanced enough to be as powerful as it can be. It's pretty much designed to punish a genrush. Right now, it doesnt punish a genrush so much as it rewards facecamping. Which doesnt really need any perks.
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Dude, I never said anything about my opinions on the design of the perk, or how strong it was. Only thing I referred to was "earning" something. And nothing in this game is "earned". IMO.
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I agree, NOED isn't earned in the traditional sense but it does not need to be earned because it's a clutch perk used only at the very tail end of the match.
Experienced killers won't need to use NOED because they aren't looking to win late game but have constant pressure all game long.
NOED is a perfectly balanced perk for new killers and tbh really easy to counter. If tou don't want to do totems, open the gates and leave. I domt know why everyone thinks having all 4 survivors leave is the only way to "win"
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