The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

Closing the hatch to ensure 4 kills is balanced.

Hunter__
Hunter__ Member Posts: 53
in General Discussions

Now in the PTB a new mechanic was added that was completely balanced and fair once you realized that the killer is supposed to kill the survivors.
If a group of 4 random or swf survivors are not good and 3 of them die off within 3-5 minutes and during the time of them being hooked repeatedly they manage to power 2 generators and then your standing in a large map with one other survivor who is not good at surviving and has done nothing but go down and then get saved only to go and hide in a corner while their teammates die off. Then that survivor doesn't deserve to live based on rng.
Oh and there's even a perk to help a survivor in this position. It's called Left Behind. That actually gives them a chance. Stealth is more or less useless but it can help for a time. But if they wanna be immersed and use stealth builds with caution perks then this is a perk they can add to their build to help with this new mechanic that makes sense for what it is.
A fix to the most unbalanced thing in the game. The existence of hatch.

Comments

  • Hunter__
    Hunter__ Member Posts: 53
    My argument was about balance. Based on rng if he came across the hatch first he gets to go. If he doesn't and the killer does then based on rng it's that much harder for him/her to survive.
    thesuicidefox said:

    No. They did 2 gens, that means that 1 has the chance to escape. If you want a 4k you should slug the third guy and go looking for the last guy. Closing hatch as it was in PTB 2.0 originally just gives the killer a free 4k when they get a 3k. There is absolutely no risk to killing the third guy because you can completely screw over the last survivor anyway. Now if you want to close the hatch you have to accept the risk that the survivor might still escape. Again if you don't want to be in that position, slug the third guy and don't kill him until you caught the last guy. This isn't buy 3 tires get the 4th one free.

    The 4th should have a chance but that chance shouldn't be a completely free escape without any work. Balance. If rng can screw over the killer then rng should be able to screw over the survivor.
    The end game activation on hatch close is balanced b/c then it turns back to the survivor and killer need to have skill other than just luck. 
    If the killer wants to be an ass and camp hatch then survivor can do gens. If killer closes hatch then it is up to the survivor to open one of the doors and leave instead of just a free getaway. Then it's up to killer to find and kill survivor.

    And Left Behind is a very situational perk that wouldn't work except in this very specific case. But that doesn't mean that it's useless. Again my argument wasn't about the use of the perk just showing that there is a perk that helps with this very situation.

    Finally if your a survivor that let's others die to get an easier chance to live then you, yes; do have an easier opportunity to escape but that in no way means that it should be that close to a guaranteed escape. And it fits into the lore as something you can do but free escapes are not something that the entity desires at all. In the lore argument. In one of the many quotes at loading screens.

    "The Entity is especially ammused by interrupted hatch escapes."

  • Hunter__
    Hunter__ Member Posts: 53

    @thesuicidefox said:

    My point here is that you only seem concerned with RNG that does not favor you. But when it does, then it's fair and balanced.

    Your kidding me right? For real joking???

    It's fair and balanced b/c hatch could have easily spawned right next to you while looking at her. The fair part is in a situation based on rng like hatch spawn it WILL screw over one party, there's no escaping that fact. The killer is supposed to kill you and you are supposed to try and survive. In no way it should be easy for either side to do that especially in a game like this,

    So... What if that game was in the ptb and that greedy ######### of a pig slammed that hatch right there. You would have probably died that game. RNG screwed you over. What if in the same ptb the hatch spawned right next to you and you jumped in before the pig could get to it. RNG screwed the pig.
    Now what if the hatch spawned in a random place on the map and it was up to you to find it before the pig closed it. Is that balanced @thesuicidefox ?
    What if the hatch spawned in a random place on the map but the pig saw you and started chasing you. You either went down because you couldn't escape her or find it fast enough OR you turned the right corner mid chase and jumped in to escape. Is that balanced? What if mid chase you guys got to the hatch at the exact same time and she either yanked you out of the jump or slammed it in your face. You don't consider that balanced right?
    The hatch existing in the game as it is right now, 100%RNG ONLY if the survivor doesn't know where it is and it spawns. If they do know it's a free escape. That is balanced to you? Really. Balance is when It's just as likely RNG screws over one just as much as the other. Equality. The Hatch in the game is there to give the last survivor with all the odds stacked against them a chance to escape. A chance. Not guarantee if they know where it is.

    I am a killer main and you know what I would say if it got down to the last survivor and i saw that hatch icon appear only to be instantly used for an escape and the game end. I would say; Lucky. In the same position If i saw hatch open right next to me and I slammed it closed knowing they couldn't escape through there, I would say lucky. But even then unless i know where they are which would take skill on my behalf to know. They now have and opportunity to open one of two doors and escape. Which would take skill on their part.
    That is BALANCE.

    My point here is you only seem concerned with what could screw over your survival role instead of balance in the game.

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    You are wrong simply because you think hatch is a free escape. It's not. Survivors did at least 2 gens. And only 1 gets to take the hatch unless they have a key. It's not free.

    If the hatch spawned near me then the end result would still be the same: I escape. Keep in mind despite the location of the hatch spawn, I still came out the winner in that situation. But if they could close the hatch WITHOUT RISK then I would have definitely lost because of RNG. But as a killer if the RNG favors the survivor you STILL have 3 kills. Also you forget that she knew where the hatch was, and killed the third guy only because of it. Had the hatch spawned elsewhere she probably would have let the guy bleed out more. My point was that RNG can go both ways and you can't balance one side exclusively for it.

    You also can't seriously think that she DESERVES to kill me do you? I did 2 full gens by myself, plus I worked on another. I had 3 or 4 saves. She NEVER CAUGHT ME ONCE all game, the hatch standoff was the longest she had her eyes on me the entire game. In no way should she just get a free kill on me by closing the hatch. She camped the basement all game. Why should she get the kill? Tell me, please I'd like to know. What right does she have to kill me when I'm clearly better at the game.

  • Hunter__
    Hunter__ Member Posts: 53

    It's not a matter of what's deserved or not. Do you deserve to escape b/c of what you did and the skillful way in which you did it. Sure you probably do deserve it. But as long as the hatch is there for you to escape and the ease in which you can b/c of rng then its only balanced for the killer to be able to just as easily prevent you too.
    Also the hatch spawning before such a situation where 1 survivor is left is imbalanced. That itself creates situations like this which is unfair to both sides b/c of knowledge that puts one side above the other.
    A balanced fix to this is hatch spawns when all gens are completed or there is 1 survivor left. Does that put the survivors in a tough spot in your opinion? If they don't know where the hatch is and neither does the killer. That would fix this situation but create another problem. You said yourself that hatch is there to let the last person who has done whatever they have to evade the killer and do gens and help their team or leave them to die have a better shot at escaping.
    Do you think that the hatch should exist before there is one survivor left. If yes, why? Can you consider that this is better for it to be completely random. If there was no way either party would know hatch location before it actually opened would you consider that balanced? That it was completely up to rng whether or not someone could escape?
    Hatch may not be a free escape and it definitely wasn't for you that game but that doesn't mean that it's not a lot of the time for survivors who didn't do what you did. Do you think a immersed survivor that did nothing to help their team who just hid and waited for everyone to die deserves to get hatch that they luckily stumbled upon? That there doesn't matter because what is deserved doesn't apply here. I'm not talking about what is and is not deserved.
    I'm talking about balance.
    In a situation where The hatch location was completely unknown by the last survivor and killer and the opportunity to escape was completely based on rng would you think it's balanced if the survivor found it first then they get a free escape and if the killer found it first the survivor would need to use skill to try and open 1 of 2 doors to escape, would that be balanced for the survivor to have yet another thing in the game where they have a second chance.

    This is over here b/c if your only argument is "your wrong" because your opinion is how it should be then this won't end. We agree to disagree because we have differing thoughts on what balance means. My only point in all of this was if survivors got an escape b/c of rng its only balanced that the killer also has the opportunity To force the survivor to use skill to survive also based on rng only. To create a balanced environment.

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    thesuicidefox said:

    You are wrong simply because you think hatch is a free escape. It's not. Survivors did at least 2 gens. And only 1 gets to take the hatch unless they have a key. It's not free.

    If the hatch spawned near me then the end result would still be the same: I escape. Keep in mind despite the location of the hatch spawn, I still came out the winner in that situation. But if they could close the hatch WITHOUT RISK then I would have definitely lost because of RNG. But as a killer if the RNG favors the survivor you STILL have 3 kills. Also you forget that she knew where the hatch was, and killed the third guy only because of it. Had the hatch spawned elsewhere she probably would have let the guy bleed out more. My point was that RNG can go both ways and you can't balance one side exclusively for it.

    You also can't seriously think that she DESERVES to kill me do you? I did 2 full gens by myself, plus I worked on another. I had 3 or 4 saves. She NEVER CAUGHT ME ONCE all game, the hatch standoff was the longest she had her eyes on me the entire game. In no way should she just get a free kill on me by closing the hatch. She camped the basement all game. Why should she get the kill? Tell me, please I'd like to know. What right does she have to kill me when I'm clearly better at the game.

    She still Killed three. It doesn’t matter how she played the match. She still did well by Killing three. Regardless of how she did it, she did it. Why is it that one person on the team is rewarded for the failure of the team? You included on that team. How would you feel if the Killer did poorly and three others escaped before you, but the last person gets locked into the trial and can’t leave unless they find the hatch first? If they find it after the Killer, they lose automatically. 

    The hatch is already a mercy mechanic. As a Killer I already beat the team. I already found the hatch before you did. Exactly how many hoops do I have to jump through, how well do I have to play, what do I have to do to earn that last Kill? Speaking of, what about that Survivor who literally does nothing all game and doesn’t help. Just hides out and let’s everyone else do all the work and grabs the hatch? 

    I’ll say again, how many hoops do I as the the Killer, have to jump through to be granted the power of choosing to grant Mercy or not? 

    Your RNG argument is invalid because the moment the hatch opens it equal opportunity to whoever finds it first. It only becomes one sided to whomever finds it first. Even then, doing a Gen to reopen it or power the gates is still an option. You want the hatch to be one sided from the get go in favor of the Survivors, punishing a Killer for actually playing well and Killing three. Don’t bother with the bullshit excuses of campers/tunnelers/bad teammates. The Killer did their job, like it or not. 

    What you want is a bullshit game mechanic that turns the game from a 4v1 balance, to a 1v1 balance at the bottom of the 9th for no other reason than entitlement. You may simply be the best of the worst, doesn’t mean you’re good. If she was busy with others, that’s not her fault. Simple predator/prey interaction. Pick off the weaker ones first, then go for the stronger ones. 
  • shadowsfall42
    shadowsfall42 Member Posts: 201
    You're wrong. Your whole point is essentially, it's balanced because RNG could favour the survivor, which completes ignores the killers advantages. The killer doesn't need to hide and is faster, meaning the chance of them finding the hatch first is significantly higher, skewing the RNG. In the first place, the interaction should be skill and decision based, not RNG. RNG is not balance.

    Giving the ability to close the hatch and the only option to open it back up is doing a gen, is not balanced. The chance the killer finds the hatch is much, much, MUCH higher because the killer is faster and doesn't need to hide. So the RNG is immensely in favour of the killer. 

    Giving the ability to close the hatch which immediately powers the gate results in a 50/50 if and only if the exit gates are far enough away. In a lot of cases the exit gates are close enough that most killers can just patrol between them. It's not as RNG based, but still killer sided. And that's not even considering Nurse and Billy can very easily travel between gates, even if they're not close together. AND THEN that's also not considering that in terms of end game perks, killers have much stronger choices. Hell bitter murmur or NOED and it's game over. It's not balanced. 

    The only way to balance the hatch and properly balance it, is to give the ability to close the hatch and finishing a gen can open it again. (And the hatch cannot be closed again) But the survivor can also begin an interaction similar to Jigsaw boxes (a series of skill checks which if failed restarts the interaction and makes a notification, plus sound) and this creates risk vs reward. The killer can either stay by the hatch after closing it to force the survivor to finish gens and start the end game, or close the hatch and patrol gens. This gives the survivor a chance to either do gens and get a 50/50 or wait for the killer to stray away and quickly open the hatch. This is not RNG and is skill and decision based.
  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    @Jack11803

    So where did the developers say that the hatch should be a totally one sided mechanic that completely favors the Survivor left alive from the moment it spawns? You want to screw the team for the hatch, you should be making a rather large gamble. As much as this game is a solo experience, it’s also a team experience. 

    All you’re doing is complaining that the game should be balanced for a 4v1 team experience, until it’s no longer an advantage for it to be a 4v1 team experience, then you want the game to suddenly shift to a 1v1 balanced experience when it suits you. 

    IE : Instead of the game going from Normal difficultly to hard mode when you and your team mates screw up, or screw each other, you want it to stay at normal difficulty, if not go to Easy Mode on the fly because “mah entitlement”.

    You don’t get to do that. You don’t get to change the difficulty to suit yourself when it benefits you in a PvP title. The developers don’t get to pick and choose favorites. The hatch needs to be impartial until either the Killer or the Survivor finds it first. Then it favors whoever finds it first. Equal Opportunity RNG. 
  • GhostEuant
    GhostEuant Member Posts: 243
    A lot of this discussion is based on what the killer/survivor “deserves” based on their performance. The problem with those arguments is that there is a lot of RNG in this game. Regardless of your skill you can’t control:
    -The perks/items other survivors have (for me at least who mostly plays solo) 
    -What Killer it is (which changes playstyle and thus may improve or hurt your chosen builds) and their perks
    -The map
    -Your starting position and how it relates to other survivors and the killer
    -What other survivors do in the game (if they pay attention to gen placement, if they’re altruistic, good at chases, etc) 
    -What the killer does in the game (will they camp or not?) 

    I’m glad the devs accounted for that and gave the hatch as a potential escape but I also look forward to how they fix the hatch standoff problem. 
  • Hunter__
    Hunter__ Member Posts: 53

    @shadowsfall42 said:
    You're wrong. Your whole point is essentially, it's balanced because RNG could favour the survivor, which completes ignores the killers advantages. The killer doesn't need to hide and is faster, meaning the chance of them finding the hatch first is significantly higher, skewing the RNG. In the first place, the interaction should be skill and decision based, not RNG. RNG is not balance.

    The only way to balance the hatch and properly balance it, is to give the ability to close the hatch and finishing a gen can open it again. (And the hatch cannot be closed again) But the survivor can also begin an interaction similar to Jigsaw boxes (a series of skill checks which if failed restarts the interaction and makes a notification, plus sound) and this creates risk vs reward. The killer can either stay by the hatch after closing it to force the survivor to finish gens and start the end game, or close the hatch and patrol gens. This gives the survivor a chance to either do gens and get a 50/50 or wait for the killer to stray away and quickly open the hatch. This is not RNG and is skill and decision based.

    Explain how I'm wrong. The killer has advantages b/c of patrolling/searching speed. Obviously he does and he should. But the hatch spawns in an unknown place and the survivor finds it first to be able to leave. That's RNG based.

    Your wrong. Your argument is because it's unfair that's not right. It's unfair to killers that the game handholds survivors and gives them a free escape for what. For being immersed. For RNG. For having their entire team die. For completing up to 2 generators while the killer is busy downing others, that's really hard. Your worrying about bitter murmur or NOED. If they have whispers your dead and don't need to worry about doing anything
    other than running to your death.

    And really. Killers close hatch and the survivors have the option and ability to go to one of 2 doors OR do gens to reopen that doesn't close this time OR go through a series of simple skill checks to escape anyway.
    Your just an entitled survivor crying about why the game isn't easier for you. Your arguments mean nothing here. It's not skill being able to use one of several methods to escape. It's skillful managing to escape with slim odds.

    Want something balanced and not that stupid easy for survivors. Hatch closes. End game activates with all gens completed. You can go try open 1 of the 2 doors or a chest spawns randomly in the match with a dull key in it. Something that takes skill to get an escape. In a situation where your trembling hand is being held even harder. So to help out the survivors even more they have to search the entire map for a chest and then get back to the hatch. Or use the mind game of if they looking for a key can open a door and escape.

    If the killer has bitter murmur your screwed. Maybe you should have run Dark Sense. About the same likely hood. Your not talking about balance, your talking about making it easier for survivors b/c killers have a movement advantage.

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    @shadowsfall42

    Fair and Balanced for a 1v1, but not a 4v1. Again, just another player that wants the balance of the game to shift on the fly when everything goes to #########. You already have you chance when finding the hatch first. Your little movement speed argument is nothing more than a complaint about the 4v1 balance. 

    It’s like all those whiners in For Honor that whine and complain that Assassins move quicker than them, and use hit and run tactics vs. your Tank hero like Conquerer or Lawbringer.

    Your argument is nothing more than a complaint the game mechanics aren’t in your favor. Tell me, how is Looping in the Killers favor? How is body blocking the hook prompt in he Killers favor? How is animation lock to be blinded by a flashlight in the Killers favor? 

    You want nothing more than EVEN MORE game mechanics to be favorable to you. As if you don’t have enough already.
  • Hunter__
    Hunter__ Member Posts: 53

    @thesuicidefox said:

    Your logic is one sided. Why is that one survivor is punished by the mistakes of the group? I literally did more than 75% of the gens that were done that game and had most of the saves too. Your saying I should just lose because other survivors are braindead and fell for an obvious trap? No. Survivors are not a team. They have a common goal, which is why they should want to work together and rescue each other, but by no means should I be obligated to them in any way. If I let you die on the hook, I'm doing it to increase my chances to escape. That Pig was NOT at all good killer. She got the other 3 because they were bad survivors, but I was not. I did most of the work that game, and even outplayed her at the end. She killed 3 why does she get me for free?

    Wait, you would have lost if you died? You did over two gens saved how many ppl and you didn't pip. Your problem is your associating winning with surviving. If you did all you said than you surely pipped. Which means you ranked up. You won that game. Even if you had been killed, you would have still pipped. Your under the assumption that you deserve to live because you are a survivor that performed well. No. What you get is the opportunity to escape. If the killer closes the hatch then you still have options. And i'm sure she wouldn't be able to kill you for free. You would have led her a merry chase, gotten even more points that you would have pipped. 2 gens so gold lightbringer, 3+ saves so iridescent benevolence, Gone down once at the end so gold unbroken, and all the time running around you would have gotten at least gold evader. That's not losing. That's just dying. Should the free getaway just be handed to you b/c you did well or should you have to earn it.
    Only if you agree with the latter makes you not just another entitled survivor. The problem your having is even though you earned it RNG screwed you over.

    /> @SovererignKing said:

    Your argument is nothing more than a complaint the game mechanics aren’t in your favor. Tell me, how is Looping in the Killers favor? How is body blocking the hook prompt in he Killers favor? How is animation lock to be blinded by a flashlight in the Killers favor? 

    You want nothing more than EVEN MORE game mechanics to be favorable to you. As if you don’t have enough already.

    Said it best.

  • shadowsfall42
    shadowsfall42 Member Posts: 201

    @Hunter__ said:

    @shadowsfall42 said:
    You're wrong. Your whole point is essentially, it's balanced because RNG could favour the survivor, which completes ignores the killers advantages. The killer doesn't need to hide and is faster, meaning the chance of them finding the hatch first is significantly higher, skewing the RNG. In the first place, the interaction should be skill and decision based, not RNG. RNG is not balance.

    The only way to balance the hatch and properly balance it, is to give the ability to close the hatch and finishing a gen can open it again. (And the hatch cannot be closed again) But the survivor can also begin an interaction similar to Jigsaw boxes (a series of skill checks which if failed restarts the interaction and makes a notification, plus sound) and this creates risk vs reward. The killer can either stay by the hatch after closing it to force the survivor to finish gens and start the end game, or close the hatch and patrol gens. This gives the survivor a chance to either do gens and get a 50/50 or wait for the killer to stray away and quickly open the hatch. This is not RNG and is skill and decision based.

    Explain how I'm wrong. The killer has advantages b/c of patrolling/searching speed. Obviously he does and he should. But the hatch spawns in an unknown place and the survivor finds it first to be able to leave. That's RNG based.

    Your wrong. Your argument is because it's unfair that's not right. It's unfair to killers that the game handholds survivors and gives them a free escape for what. For being immersed. For RNG. For having their entire team die. For completing up to 2 generators while the killer is busy downing others, that's really hard. Your worrying about bitter murmur or NOED. If they have whispers your dead and don't need to worry about doing anything
    other than running to your death.

    And really. Killers close hatch and the survivors have the option and ability to go to one of 2 doors OR do gens to reopen that doesn't close this time OR go through a series of simple skill checks to escape anyway.
    Your just an entitled survivor crying about why the game isn't easier for you. Your arguments mean nothing here. It's not skill being able to use one of several methods to escape. It's skillful managing to escape with slim odds.

    Want something balanced and not that stupid easy for survivors. Hatch closes. End game activates with all gens completed. You can go try open 1 of the 2 doors or a chest spawns randomly in the match with a dull key in it. Something that takes skill to get an escape. In a situation where your trembling hand is being held even harder. So to help out the survivors even more they have to search the entire map for a chest and then get back to the hatch. Or use the mind game of if they looking for a key can open a door and escape.

    If the killer has bitter murmur your screwed. Maybe you should have run Dark Sense. About the same likely hood. Your not talking about balance, your talking about making it easier for survivors b/c killers have a movement advantage.

    Your entire argument is that whoever finds it first is balanced because RNG. The killer being faster and not needing to hide, skews that RNG considerably. Which you still are incapable of understanding. And even more so, RNG is not good balancing.

    My argument is that it should be balanced for both sides, bringing in both skill and decision making into equation. Not because it's unfair, so it's not right. You're really ######### stretching mate. The current hatch mechanic is bad, because it requires no skill, no decision making in order to win that scenario as a survivor. The best the killer can do is slug the third survivor and look for the last one, or hope hooking them reveals them with BBQ. Closing the hatch requires very little skill or decision making on the killers side. You find that hatch, close it and it's near impossible for most survivors to fix a gen and find the hatch again in that scenario as the killer has constant knowledge of gens. (made even worse by that fact that the killer could just close it again)

    Powering the exit gates upon closing the hatch produces a similar issue, except that issue is exacerbated by the fact that it only provides one option of escape. Which is a 50/50. And that 50/50 is essentially moot if the killer is Nurse or Billy. And even if you add the key that's RNG. RNG is a terrible point to balance with because it doesn't take into account the skill or decision making of either player and that's what should dictate
    the final survivor situation.

    You're the entitled one here, and it's funny you call me an entitled survivor, considering 90% of my game time is on killer. So that 'point' is moot, since all you're trying to do is say my point means nothing because of the side I play, which again, 90% of my game time is killer. Frankly all you want is that last kill for no effort on your part.

    You're trying so hard to validate your 'RNG is balance' point. But what you aren't understanding is that both hatch solutions given so far on the PTB are in the favour of the killer and you're desperate for that, just because you think you deserve that last kill. What you're missing with my proposed solution is that it makes it fair for both sides. If a survivor can get a gen done while the hatch is closed they deserve to escape. If they go through the hatch interaction therefore opening the hatch back up before the killer can get back there to check it, they deserve to escape. How is it even remotely easy for survivors in that situation? Explain that? Explain how it's easy for the survivor in that situation? Because it's certainly not the free escape you keep telling yourself it is. Especially when we have the definition of a free escape in the game right now. Explain that. Because all you're doing is whining.

  • kimukipi
    kimukipi Member Posts: 137

    I'm totally fine with the final survivor getting a last chance, provided he finds it first and uses before the killer could find him. However, the current hatch mechanic is laughable that even if killer reaches in time, there is absolutely nothing he could do. Hit the survivor, he gets off, down the survivor and he still gets off. IMO, the killer should be able to close the hatch provided he finds it first and to balance it, maybe provide the final survivor some temporary buff like increased repair speed, reading killers aura (like OoO) but without notifying the killer etc. It needs a rework in such a way it is competitive and not a get outta jail free card.

  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @Mc_Harty said:
    I just wanted to point out that the people avocating that the hatch shouldn't be survivor sided clearly don't understand the [BAD WORD] point of the hatch. What does the hatch existing do for the killer? [BAD WORD] nothing. So ofc its survivor sided by default.

    It exists for that lone survivor that played well. Not the team. It's designed to ensure the individual has a chance. If you're upset that one survivor got away when you got the majority of players in that match I don't even know what to say. You already won, stop being sore about it.

    Inbefore I'm a filthy survivor main that wants the game to be unbalanced because I disagree with salty posters.

    This and as a killer most of the time except when I'm the killer they already know where the hatch is and camp it like a plague. I had a Pig get 3 ppl and the hatch was in 1 of the 2 story house but in a narrow cubby hole spot that you couldn't reach without getting grabbed and sac'd. School Haddonfield.

    I'd done 3 of the 4 gens myself and the last 3 gens we're both on same side of the school. One near the front and close to the house. One near the back of the school and one in middle of the street. The pig just camped there forever and would only venture out to see if they could get me before retreating to the hatch.

    I ended up getting the last gen done and they made a beeline to me and hit me 1x and i managed to run to the hatch and jump in. I've had other games same way against Hillbilly and Leather face same map. They did same thing and just patrolled back and forth near the exit gates.

    I think a good way of doing it would be that it doesn't actually ever spawn until the conditions for it have been met. Then once it does spawn it should spawn somewhere between the killer and the survivor. It would give both sides and equal chance to get to it, but neither side would know where exactly it'd be at. So do you veer left, veer right or go straight down the middle to try and find it.

    The killer would have an advantage of being quicker and not having to hide while looking. The survivor gets to choose which way they go to look for it while trying to avoid the killer. If one goes the wrong way ie left instead of right they lose.You could also make it take time to close the hatch and not be instantaneous. It should take say 5-10 seconds, the survivor could use this time to try and finish a gen or if gates are powered try and open 1.

  • hMM
    hMM Member Posts: 121

    @Hunter__ said:
    Now in the PTB a new mechanic was added that was completely balanced and fair once you realized that the killer is supposed to kill the survivors.
    If a group of 4 random or swf survivors are not good and 3 of them die off within 3-5 minutes and during the time of them being hooked repeatedly they manage to power 2 generators and then your standing in a large map with one other survivor who is not good at surviving and has done nothing but go down and then get saved only to go and hide in a corner while their teammates die off. Then that survivor doesn't deserve to live based on rng.
    Oh and there's even a perk to help a survivor in this position. It's called Left Behind. That actually gives them a chance. Stealth is more or less useless but it can help for a time. But if they wanna be immersed and use stealth builds with caution perks then this is a perk they can add to their build to help with this new mechanic that makes sense for what it is.
    A fix to the most unbalanced thing in the game. The existence of hatch.

    As a survivor main i agree 100%. If the others die what can we do? This happens, but not in every game. The hatch should indeed not be a 'get out of jail free' card.

  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    I killed at least 80% of survivors that tried the hatch on me when I was six or billy, thing is, you can catch them after you find the hatch. Did you know are actually able to move once you find the hatch? Never camp it, that is THE worst decision you have. You can find the person before they find the hatch. As killer, you shouldn’t try to find hatch, you should try to find the survivor, it’s literally just common sense. You guys are WILLINGFULLY throwing away your chance of killing the last guy. Also, if they should just run left behind, maybe you should just run whispers.

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    @shadowsfall42

    Yet RNG is all over the place for the Killer. Pallets Spawns, Totem Spawns, Windows blocked off or not for HUGE loops, you name it. You want to ######### about RNG not favorable to the Survivor in this case, but what about all the RNG that screws the Killer? What about ENTIRE maps that cuck Killers, like Lery’s for a Nurse? Nah, forget about that. RNG should only screw Killers, never the Survivor right? 

    All you have been doing this this whole time is whining you don’t have second chances on top of your second chances over and over if closing the hatch comes into play. 

    You also, like so many damn Survivors only consider Survival as winning. If you really did play well, you pip. Survival is, and should always be, a team effort. Not a lone wolf thing. Why do you think Survivors ######### and moan all the time about team mates not helping? Why would they when there isn’t really any incentive to do so? Seriously, you pip’ed, you already won. What you want is ice cream with your cake. You can’t be happy with just the cake, gotta have more cause you’re greedy. 

    The Killer played well and did thier damn job and beat the team. You played well and were last alive. However did you even have to DO ANYTHING to be last alive? No, you didn’t. You could just bum out and let everyone else get chased, do gens while they keep the Killer busy, do hook saves when you know it’s safe. You don’t even have to have ANY interaction at all with anything. Just be the best of the worst. Good job. You get a free pass just because other people sucked more than you. Congratulations. How’s that pity ice cream taste? 

    Again, nothing more than a whiner who wants RNG to favor one side, and ONLY one side. 

    Oh, and I had some spare time on my hands so I got curious and checked PSN. Hello fellow PS4 player. I wonder what a “90% Killer player’s” trophies look like... hmmm... well that’s odd. 

    92 Total Trophies available to achieve.
    You have 13 Killer Specific Trophies... and 28 Survivor specific trophies. You don’t even have 500 Kills trophy “Feast for the Entity” ... Yet you have 500 Skillchecks preformed as Survivor, 100 heals, 100 Full Repair of Gens. 

    Yeah, “90% Killer Player” my ass. Might want to hide your trophies before you lie out your ass that you’re not a Bias Survivor Main player mate. 
  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    @SovererignKing said:
    @shadowsfall42

    Yet RNG is all over the place for the Killer. Pallets Spawns, Totem Spawns, Windows blocked off or not for HUGE loops, you name it. You want to ######### about RNG not favorable to the Survivor in this case, but what about all the RNG that screws the Killer? What about ENTIRE maps that cuck Killers, like Lery’s for a Nurse? Nah, forget about that. RNG should only screw Killers, never the Survivor right? 

    All you have been doing this this whole time is whining you don’t have second chances on top of your second chances over and over if closing the hatch comes into play. 

    You also, like so many damn Survivors only consider Survival as winning. If you really did play well, you pip. Survival is, and should always be, a team effort. Not a lone wolf thing. Why do you think Survivors ######### and moan all the time about team mates not helping? Why would they when there isn’t really any incentive to do so? Seriously, you pip’ed, you already won. What you want is ice cream with your cake. You can’t be happy with just the cake, gotta have more cause you’re greedy. 

    The Killer played well and did thier damn job and beat the team. You played well and were last alive. However did you even have to DO ANYTHING to be last alive? No, you didn’t. You could just bum out and let everyone else get chased, do gens while they keep the Killer busy, do hook saves when you know it’s safe. You don’t even have to have ANY interaction at all with anything. Just be the best of the worst. Good job. You get a free pass just because other people sucked more than you. Congratulations. How’s that pity ice cream taste? 

    Again, nothing more than a whiner who wants RNG to favor one side, and ONLY one side. 

    Oh, and I had some spare time on my hands so I got curious and checked PSN. Hello fellow PS4 player. I wonder what a “90% Killer player’s” trophies look like... hmmm... well that’s odd. 

    92 Total Trophies available to achieve.
    You have 13 Killer Specific Trophies... and 28 Survivor specific trophies. You don’t even have 500 Kills trophy “Feast for the Entity” ... Yet you have 500 Skillchecks preformed as Survivor, 100 heals, 100 Full Repair of Gens. 

    Yeah, “90% Killer Player” my ass. Might want to hide your trophies before you lie out your ass that you’re not a Bias Survivor Main player mate. 

    1) You just want RNG in favor of the killer. That’s the exact thing you want. 2) You are also whining and composing profusely. 3) The devs have said it’s viable to be alone and screw the team, they say whether you chose to be a team, or be selfish is the whole premise of the game. Of course teammates want to live, WHY WOULDNT THEY!? That’s a stupid statement. 4) Not interacting is not always a bad thing.

    5) YOU don’t determine what’s victory. Everyone has what they believe is victory, you don’t determine others.

  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    @SovererignKing

    Also, because apparently trophies matter to you, I have PlayStation platinum

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    @Jack11803

    1. RNG will favor the Killer AFTER he/she Kills 3 people. Only because the balance set forth for 1v4 at the initial start of the match. You want the games balance to suddenly shift from a 1v4, to a 1v1 out of pity for for no other reason than you feel entitled to it.

    2. Exactly what you are doing, because you’re afraid your easy out for YOU and YOUR TEAM performing poorly.

    3. Viable, yes, if you over preform well enough to pick up the slack of your team mates, and (for lack of a better term) “Carry Them”. You should only say screw the team mates when the risk outweighs the benefits, not as an “end all be all” tactic with little, to no repercussions.

    4. It’s not always bad thing, however purely not interacting? Why are you even bothering to play the damn game at all if you’re just here to score an easy out? Don’t care for a challenge do you? Just want to coast through? Maybe you should play a single player game on easy mode or something then...

    5. No, I do not. The developers get the say so on that. However what you want is the developers to say “Yeah... he did well so he gets ice cream with his cake. Why? Cause we said so.” The have to be impartial, just as the hatch mechanic in itself must be impartial.
  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273

    Jack11803 said:

    @SovererignKing

    Also, because apparently trophies matter to you, I have PlayStation platinum

    Ok, cool. I’ll take you seriously and debate with you then. 
  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    @SovererignKing
    1) The devs want it to shift to simulate the final girl trope. They themselves said the balance should shift. 2) I know I was, it was for hypocrisy’s sake. Let’s scratch this number from the reply chain. 3) 2) The killer CAN find you before you get the hatch, Ive done it tons of times. It’s not as easy as it seems as well. Also, devs (I’m basically using their word like the Bible now aren’t I? Yeah I know it’s annoying) said that if one person goes the selfish route, and makes the UNIFIED goal harder, the SOLO goal should be easier. 3) Was referring to killer interactions, not all. Simple misunderstanding 4) If the hatch is the necessary escape, chances are you didn’t make much pip progress. Also, killer has already won, you can just, if you evade the killer, make it out alive and salvage the game.

  • shadowsfall42
    shadowsfall42 Member Posts: 201
    SovererignKing said:
    @shadowsfall42

    Oh, and I had some spare time on my hands so I got curious and checked PSN. Hello fellow PS4 player. I wonder what a “90% Killer player’s” trophies look like... hmmm... well that’s odd. 

    92 Total Trophies available to achieve.
    You have 13 Killer Specific Trophies... and 28 Survivor specific trophies. You don’t even have 500 Kills trophy “Feast for the Entity” ... Yet you have 500 Skillchecks preformed as Survivor, 100 heals, 100 Full Repair of Gens. 

    Yeah, “90% Killer Player” my ass. Might want to hide your trophies before you lie out your ass that you’re not a Bias Survivor Main player mate. 
    I mean, there's reaching, and there's this #########.

    Firstly, I only play a couple hours each day. Some days, I don't even play it. Secondly, 500 skill checks is ######### easy to get considering it counts healing, gens, jigsaw boxes etc etc. Thirdly 100 heals takes no time at all, if you're the kind to save people nor is 100 gens considering I easily get 2-3 done a game. (Do the math, it's really easy to get) While on the other hand, you can only get a maximum of four kills per game and half the time, it's really only two. And that's not even taking into account the 4 man escapes.

    Lastly, I said 90% of my game time is on killer. For the 6 months and a bit since I bought DBD, 4 months of that was almost completely Killer. With maybe a game or two of survivor thrown in. Except when the Chinese new year came around and I had to grind for literally days to get 80 lunar gens for David's jacket. Compared to how freakishly easy it was for the Huntress mask. So please, reach harder mate. None of the survivor trophies are particularly difficult. 
  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Hunter__ said:
    Now in the PTB a new mechanic was added that was completely balanced and fair once you realized that the killer is supposed to kill the survivors.
    If a group of 4 random or swf survivors are not good and 3 of them die off within 3-5 minutes and during the time of them being hooked repeatedly they manage to power 2 generators and then your standing in a large map with one other survivor who is not good at surviving and has done nothing but go down and then get saved only to go and hide in a corner while their teammates die off. Then that survivor doesn't deserve to live based on rng.
    Oh and there's even a perk to help a survivor in this position. It's called Left Behind. That actually gives them a chance. Stealth is more or less useless but it can help for a time. But if they wanna be immersed and use stealth builds with caution perks then this is a perk they can add to their build to help with this new mechanic that makes sense for what it is.
    A fix to the most unbalanced thing in the game. The existence of hatch.

    Nice rational argumentation.
    Sadly you forget that ~80% of the community are survivors and they are who dictate the "balance"

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    Jack11803 said:

    @SovererignKing
    1) The devs want it to shift to simulate the final girl trope. They themselves said the balance should shift. 2) I know I was, it was for hypocrisy’s sake. Let’s scratch this number from the reply chain. 3) 2) The killer CAN find you before you get the hatch, Ive done it tons of times. It’s not as easy as it seems as well. Also, devs (I’m basically using their word like the Bible now aren’t I? Yeah I know it’s annoying) said that if one person goes the selfish route, and makes the UNIFIED goal harder, the SOLO goal should be easier. 3) Was referring to killer interactions, not all. Simple misunderstanding 4) If the hatch is the necessary escape, chances are you didn’t make much pip progress. Also, killer has already won, you can just, if you evade the killer, make it out alive and salvage the game.

    1. I would like to know where the developers said they want the balance to shift from 4v1 to 1v1.

    2. The unified goal has always been escape. Why is it that screwing your team mates makes the unified goal of escape easier as well? I’d like to know where the developers stated that the unified goal and solo goal should be the same difficulty regardless of how many Survivors die? That makes no sense. It should increase in difficulty with each death. That’s he whole point of the game. 

    (Not sure if we should continue number 3)

    4. You shouldn’t be able to salvage a game if you didn’t play well, either as a team or solo. You shouldn’t be rewarded for failure.
  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    @SovererignKing said:
    Jack11803 said:

    @SovererignKing

    1) The devs want it to shift to simulate the final girl trope. They themselves said the balance should shift. 2) I know I was, it was for hypocrisy’s sake. Let’s scratch this number from the reply chain. 3) 2) The killer CAN find you before you get the hatch, Ive done it tons of times. It’s not as easy as it seems as well. Also, devs (I’m basically using their word like the Bible now aren’t I? Yeah I know it’s annoying) said that if one person goes the selfish route, and makes the UNIFIED goal harder, the SOLO goal should be easier. 3) Was referring to killer interactions, not all. Simple misunderstanding 4) If the hatch is the necessary escape, chances are you didn’t make much pip progress. Also, killer has already won, you can just, if you evade the killer, make it out alive and salvage the game.

    1. I would like to know where the developers said they want the balance to shift from 4v1 to 1v1.

      1. The unified goal has always been escape. Why is it that screwing your team mates makes the unified goal of escape easier as well? I’d like to know where the developers stated that the unified goal and solo goal should be the same difficulty regardless of how many Survivors die? That makes no sense. It should increase in difficulty with each death. That’s he whole point of the game. 

    (Not sure if we should continue number 3)

    1. You shouldn’t be able to salvage a game if you didn’t play well, either as a team or solo. You shouldn’t be rewarded for failure.

    1 and 2) I believe first 5 dev streams, don’t quite remember. Screwing your teammates rewards you because of design choice. It also only applies on “the final girl” trope. Killer shouldn’t get weaker on 4-2 survivors, but once it’s at one, the bone is thrown to the survivors. 4) If you mess up solo, yeah you’re dead. But as before, they’re not your team. Just people with a common goal you can help, or use like a bunch of tools. This will result in the number role losing. But you personally surviving.

  • newduls
    newduls Member Posts: 90

    Any hatch discussion has to start with the question, do you think the hatch in its current state is broken?

    If you answer "no" to this question then any discussion around changing it is pointless because it's currently so insanely survivor sided that anyone answering no, has already shown they aren't looking for it to be more fairly balanced.

    If you answer "yes", then you should view the hatch as a tool of purpose. One which should enhance the game experience for both the killer and the survivor.

    Once 1 survivor remains, the game dragging on is not fun. For the killer, the purpose of the hatch should be the prevention of the game dragging on for too long.

    For the survivor the hatch serves as a last chance escape.

    The last version on the PTB, in which the killer could close the hatch and all the gens were completed, was a decent option, but ultimately provided a RNG 75/25 escape/kill chance.

    Why? Because hatch placement becomes the RNG factor that ruins the killers chance for a kill. The killer has 2 gates to check. If the hatch is too far from either, the survivor wins for sure, additionally, if the killer chooses the wrong gate the survivor wins. On rare occasion the hatch may be in a position to allow the killer to protect both gates.

    So while, it may have looked favorable on the PTB, over time and experience, survivors would learn to simple hide by a gate and wait for the hatch to be closed.

    IMO, the hatch should be removed from the game as a last chance escape. The hatch should only be openable by a key. When the final survivor remains, a timer should start, 30 secs. The aura of the survivor is revealed to the killer. When timer ends the gates open.

    This solves both problems. The game will never drag on, and the final survivor must be good enough to last in a chase for 30+ secs.

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    @newduls

    Make it 45 seconds, and we have a deal. 
  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930
    edited June 2018

    @SovererignKing said:
    @newduls

    Make it 45 seconds, and we have a deal. 

    I think it’d fit final girl trope the devs were going for as well. How about, you have to last 30 or 45 seconds, then the hatch and it’s aura open and appears? So basically the hatch was never open until you live for almost a minute

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    Jack11803 said:

    @SovererignKing said:
    @newduls

    Make it 45 seconds, and we have a deal. 

    I think it’d fit final girl trope the devs were going for as well. How about, you have to last 30 or 45 seconds, then the hatch and it’s aura open and appears? So basically the hatch was never open until you live for almost a minute

    Hmmm... only thing I’d have to say on this is what of Nurse. All the Loopable Killers I suppose this works fine, however Nurse breaks Looping. Permanent wall hacks would be too powerful on her. 

    Better idea would be that the Killer gets a free 15 seconds of aura reading. Then it stops. As a Survivor, you should already have lost a Killer in that time span. Not to mention, we don’t want to encourage Looping anymore than it already is. 
  • Irisora
    Irisora Member Posts: 1,442

    @newduls said:
    So while, it may have looked favorable on the PTB, over time and experience, survivors would learn to simple hide by a gate and wait for the hatch to be closed.

    Yes this is what potencially would happen if they introduced the close hatch mechanic in its current idea. Other suggestions should be given taking into account not to prolong the game too much and not making it boring.

    In my opinion the hatch choice should stay because its not there only for a free escape but also for not to prolong the game needlessly. The close hatch option can be implemented but it need some tweaks like for example: to prevent survivors camping gates there can be an increased timer for gates. So then the survivor will have to choose to go for the hatch first and camping a gate will be more risky.

    Then if the game prolongs too much for example more than 2 or 3 minutes auras can be revealed.

  • Jack11803
    Jack11803 Member Posts: 3,930

    @Irisora said:

    @newduls said:
    So while, it may have looked favorable on the PTB, over time and experience, survivors would learn to simple hide by a gate and wait for the hatch to be closed.

    Yes this is what potencially would happen if they introduced the close hatch mechanic in its current idea. Other suggestions should be given taking into account not to prolong the game too much and not making it boring.

    In my opinion the hatch choice should stay because its not there only for a free escape but also for not to prolong the game needlessly. The close hatch option can be implemented but it need some tweaks like for example: to prevent survivors camping gates there can be an increased timer for gates. So then the survivor will have to choose to go for the hatch first and camping a gate will be more risky.

    Then if the game prolongs too much for example more than 2 or 3 minutes auras can be revealed.

    Makeing gate take longer is probably not the best idea, it’d make billy even more ridiculous.

  • newduls
    newduls Member Posts: 90

    @SovererignKing said:
    @newduls

    Make it 45 seconds, and we have a deal. 

    I think 45 would be fine, the final number could obviously be tweaked to fit whatever target testing shows to be the most balanced.

    The point is, looking for the last survivor isn't fun for the killer, and having no hope of escape isn't fun for the survivor.

  • SovererignKing
    SovererignKing Member Posts: 1,273
    newduls said:

    @SovererignKing said:
    @newduls

    Make it 45 seconds, and we have a deal. 

    I think 45 would be fine, the final number could obviously be tweaked to fit whatever target testing shows to be the most balanced.

    The point is, looking for the last survivor isn't fun for the killer, and having no hope of escape isn't fun for the survivor.

    I actually do like looking for the last guy. I like hide and seek more than tag, sorry lol. 

    Truth is, this whole debate is about entitlement on both sides. Both did work, both were the best at what they do.

    It's just that to me, the Killer is a little more deserving is all. He/She doesn’t have the option to just be “the best of the worst”, he/she doesn’t have team mates, he/she doesn’t have a bunch of game mechanics stacked in his/her favor already from match start. Then there is the issue of SWF on comms already tossing the Survivors another freebie advantage.