The Developers need to address Face Camping and Proxy Camping/Tunneling

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Munqaxus
Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
edited August 2021 in Feedback and Suggestions

Some Definitions

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Face Camping: When a killer stands within M1 distance of a hooked survivor till they die on hook or are rescued allowing the killer to place the same survivor right back on hook.

 

Proxy Camping/Tunneling: When a killer hooks a survivor and stays within about 32 meters or less of the survivor, so that the moment that survivor is unhooked, they can go immediately back to that survivor and hook them immediately, ignoring all other teammates.

 

The Developers Responsibility

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The 1st responsibility of Developers in any game is to make the game playable for all players.

 

Why the Developers Need to Focus on Face Camping and Proxy Camping/Tunneling

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1. First and foremost, Face Camping and Proxy Camping/Tunneling allows one player to completely prevent another player from playing the game they bought from the developers.

2. Face Camping and Proxy Camping/Tunneling is considered by the majority of players, the most toxic behavior currently in the game. About the only players that don’t consider it toxic are players that face camp or proxy camp/tunnel. Other toxic behaviors have been addressed, such as DCing and racial slurs, this is currently the biggest offender of toxic behavior by far.

3. Extremely Low Skill, Extremely High Reward: Every killer player learns and masters these techniques in brown and yellow ranks.  Killer players master this tactic even before they master the killers main power. However, the reward of using this low-skill tactic is rewarded far more than almost every other tactic in the game. It allows you to completely remove a player from the game within a minute or two, sometimes less.

4. The 3 and 3 Ratio: The games tipping point, where a Killer player “wins” the game is usually around 3 survivors and 3 unworked gens. This game play mechanic is a problem for Survivor players because Face Camping and Proxy Camping/Tunneling allows a Killer player to “win” the game by using an extremely low-skill tactic to immediately eliminate a player. But the 3 and 3 ratio also causing a massive problem for Killers, because the developers have to make gen speeds extremely fast, so survivors can get below 3 gens before face camping or proxy camping/tunneling removes a survivor player from the game. If face camping or proxy camping/tunneling was addressed by the developers then gen speeds could also be addressed by the developers. It’s a catch-22.

 

What have the Developers tried to do to fix this

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1. Perks: Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike. Using perks to fix this problem has not worked and will not work. First, solo survivors are very limited on what perks they can choose, so requiring an anti-tunnel/camping perk for solo survivors handicaps them. Second, a determined killer won’t be phased by either one of these perks. Third, perks like these are easily abused by survivors if they are strong enough to prevent tunneling/camping yet are worthless to survivors if they are two weak. Which is currently what is happening

2. Pausing the struggle timer: This was a step in the right direction, because it didn’t handicap solo survivors and also addressed camping/tunneling as a whole for every player. However it was abused by survivor players because the rules were for pausing the hook timer were so generalized that it didn’t account for survivors running the killer around the hooked survivor. 

3. Unfortunately, the developers didn’t attempt to refine the rules for pausing the struggle timer to account for exploits and seemed to give up on trying to address this problem. Nor did the developers attempt another fix.

Comments

  • jajay119
    jajay119 Member Posts: 877
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    Theyve already addressed they don't have a problem with it and that they feel its a valid play style.

    Its scummy... But then you just self sacrifice and help your team. Give what you get and move on. Don't let it get to you that's my philosophy. I don't seem to find the game anywhere near as stressful or annoying as many here do so it must be working lol.

    Sometimes it can even work out like it did on a Coldwind match against Ghost face yesterday where I was hooked right next to the gates and he wouldn't move. Someone still got me off and we got out. It was genuine squeaky bum time.

  • JohnWeak
    JohnWeak Member Posts: 854
    edited September 2021
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    Clearly one of the best "feedback" thread about camping/tunneling i have seen and no one cares...

    That's crazy what the community of this game has become. Nothing surprising when i see the players i met in-game...

    Camping/Tunneling toxicity has been a huge subject since the game release. Old School players even invented the "face camping" term... It means a lot.

    What have the developers done about it to permanently remove it from the game ? Nothing. I have an easy fix : when a survivor is hooked, the hook disappears (with the survivor on it) and reappears somewhere else, randomly on the map. Same as PH cage but without the "farthest from the killer".

    Honestly, in 2021, Camping and Tunneling are used 90% of the time in red rank.

    I constantly see red ranks killers that are terrible at chasing & map control combined and they are still red ranks. They just camped the first hook and kill the trial for this survivor and all the others. And YES, they are highly rewarded with it as they often end up with 25k bloodpoints and they succeed to go red rank while they are really bad at the game.

    3 years ago, red rank killers had way more skill and it was way funnier to play as a survivor. Today it's a terrible experience. I have 1500h into the game, some of my friends have 3000h and they are all quitting the game, one by one.

    Higher skill requirement to rank up would be healthy for the game, and it's where we find the fun. Staying minutes on a hook being camped in-between pressing left mc to do gens is not fun, it can't even be called "gameplay".

    BHVR, be ware, when old school players are leaving the ship, it's sinking :). You will never be able to keep the game in a healthy state as new players won't stay, the current state is way too toxic.

  • Gorik
    Gorik Member Posts: 133
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    While we are at it, lets make sure killers can't even touch you after you have been unhooked for 5 minutes just to be extra sure they can't tunnel you, and you then get 5 minutes of undisturbed gen work in, and if you are camped and tunnelled the Devs guarantee and insta ban for 1 month for the naughty killer and any survivor if tunnelled gets GOD mode activated so that they can be compensated with a free escape.

    Then we need to balance it a bit so I propose to stop them dirty Gen rushers who complete 3 gens by the time the killer has 1 down, they should do it so when ever the killer is more then 32 metres from a hooked survivor, other survivors can only do Gens for 10 seconds before being forced to take a 10 second break, and if survivors blind the killer or even worse make a save on a picked up survivor then they have to remain idle for 20 seconds so the killer can catch up to the survivor who got off.

    In fact bugger it, BHVR need to end the game as soon as it starts and give every player maximum emblems and blood points instantly.

    And if you think face camping a Survivor whilst all of your Gens pop around you as killer is them being rewarded then your nuts, simple as that, plus killers are deducted emblem points for being to close to the hooked survivor as a "punishment" regardless of whether they are camping or being forced to chase another survivor around that area, tell me how that is fair?

  • JohnWeak
    JohnWeak Member Posts: 854
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    Not enough emblems deducted as they succeed to be red rank being total potatoes in chasing/map control. So they just camp all the time, every game and still get to red ranks.

    No one can force a killer to chase a survivor near the hook. The killer has the choice, it can force the survivors to stay on the hook camping them, it can force the survivors to die and have a bad trial tunneling but survivors can't be toxic towards a killer.

    Survivors have no way to interact on the killer trial.

    In DbD everything revolve around the killer choices and way to play. Period.

  • Gorik
    Gorik Member Posts: 133
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    Then BHVR need to add a killer emote so that the killer can wave at the person waiting for the unhook ( likely playing around BBQ ) as they pass them by because according to you that's what they should do rather then starting a chase an interrupting a potential unhook.

  • Viktor1853
    Viktor1853 Member Posts: 932
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    camping and tunneling is fine is not against the rules

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
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    Everything you said has nothing to do with this post. If you re-read my definition, I said it was staying within about 32 meters of a hooked survivor with the intention of going back to him the second they are unhooked to tunnel that survivor down and rehook them. Nothing you said fits that definition.

    The game is balanced toward the most effective tactic. That includes gen speeds which is a major problem for Killers. (I play both sides and I absolutely hate quick gen speeds).

    One of the most effective tactics is to proxy-tunnel 1 survivor, to the exclusion of all other survivors out of the game. The gen speeds have to be extremely fast to account for that. If on the other hand, the Killer couldn't proxy-tunnel 1 survivor out of the game and had to interact with at least 1 other survivor at the beginning half of the match, gen speeds could be reduced.

    You even said it yourself...

    Until the game is properly balanced, which it probably never will be, you're just gonna have to deal with these tactics you don't like.

    You don't like these tactics as killer, survivors don't like these tactics. Why not rebalance the game by reducing these tactics, slow down gens increase the number of required hooks to win the game. The game ends up being more fun for Killer and the game ends up being more fun for the Survivor. Everyone wins.

  • fitch
    fitch Member Posts: 143
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    SWF can gen rush in 3min.

    Camping and tunneling like a joke

    play more plz.

  • HaunterofShadows
    HaunterofShadows Member Posts: 3,994
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    that doesn't change their point about 32m not being camping. If the killer goes back to tunnel there's nothing stopping them from doing that regardless of their distance from the hooks. If they stay nearby with the intent to tunnel they're likely going to tunnel no matter how far they are from the hook.

  • vacaman
    vacaman Member Posts: 1,140
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    But do they really need to adress this? How do they change this mechanic without breaking the game completly, specially tunneling. They would have to make so many changes and buff killer a whole lot to compensate since survivors would have 2 perk slots that are usually used by BT and DS free and killers would lose a lot of pressure knowing that if you hook a survivor the 3 others can be each on a gen without any penalty because they have no pressure that the killer might be protecting the hook.

    I'm very skeptical of the idea of changing such a core mechanic of the game that I don't really think it's even that bad unless I see somebody coming with a big revolutionary solution that pleases everybody and doesn't break the game.

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752
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    We have Killers complaining everyday about gen speeds and we have survivors complaining everyday about proxy-tunneling / face-camping. The entire player-base absolutely hates this aspect of the game, killers and survivors both.

    Also, streamers have proven over and over again that you don't need to proxy-tunnel / face-camp to win games. The game can work without these specific tactics.

  • vacaman
    vacaman Member Posts: 1,140
    edited September 2021
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    I just want a solution, you just described a problem (that not everybody agrees that it's a problem btw).

    And I call bullshit on that streamers don't proxy camp to win, they almost allways do. I don't usually watch streamers but i've seen some of Otzdarva doing the 50 win streaks and every single time he proxy camps in some sort because it's the best way to win and i would argue he is one of the most fair killers there are. You need to defend your objectives, and hooks are an objective too.

  • Kees_T
    Kees_T Member Posts: 810
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    This is a 1vs4 game, games like LoL and Dota which have the same number of players on both sides is already hard to balance, now a 1 v 4 game that has different gameplay for each side is completely another story.

    Sometimes you need to rush a kill early game otherwise you will lose, so tunneling which is just another term for killing the easy target is a valid tactic. 90% of the match as Killer you can win by just playing normally, but the 10% you need to rush some kills.

    There is multiple ways of stopping Killers from camping, a change that is focused in a certain playstyle will also affect the overall playstyle for Killers, which means making any changes to stop the Killer for tunneling the same person every time, will cause another problems to some people that never tunnel in their games, making it unfair.

  • JohnWeak
    JohnWeak Member Posts: 854
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    ? What is the point saying this ? Where is the link with what have been said previously ?

    Ah ok, none.

  • dbd900bach
    dbd900bach Member Posts: 579
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    Yes you have addressed an issue within the game, something that arguably needs to be changed but we're still left with the big question. How?

    Playing with this Idea I imagine that 9/10 anything you try to fix this problem will not work. One way or another it will make the game only worse while also limiting player freedom.

    We also have to think about if it's even achievable. Some ideas require complete reworks or changes to the base game as a whole which everyone knows is already unstable.

    It needs to be addressed in someway eventually but as it stands now it's currently impossible and the devs can only create perks or use bloodpoint loss to incentive players

  • JohnWeak
    JohnWeak Member Posts: 854
    edited September 2021
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    Yes, they have proven it BUT to do so you need to be good at chases and map control. You need to understand how the game mechanics work (divide the map to end up in a 3 gen rush). Well it involves many things :

    • good observation skill
    • know how to counter loops
    • fast decisions making (good ones)
    • Those 3 things need only one thing : to have a functioning brain (being smart)

    What do we know about humanity ? Most of ppl have an IQ around 100 and are lazy. It means most of the ppl (around 80%) won't put the effort and won't even think about those things to improve their level in the game.

    That's what distinguish players like Otz, TrueTalent, Ayrun etc... and most of the random guys that refuse to see that camping/tunneling is unhealthy for the game.

    Honestly, gen rush doesn't even exist. If a killer is gen rushed, it's 100% its fault, it means the player didn't understand anything to how the game work.

    When a survivor is camped, there is nothing he can do to prevent it.

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    For those crying about gen rush, even though it's not the subject here; a trial is divided in 3 phases.

    1st phase : 5 gens left, huge area to control (for the killer). At this stage you cannot control the map, you are at a disadvantage, only thing to do is to divide the map with pressure and chase one or two survivors and get 1 to 2 hooks.

    2nd phase : 3 gens left, area to cover is smaller. Trial is now balanced IF you properly divided the map. Continue the chases to take some hooks and apply a map pressure to end up in a 3 gens situation.

    3rd phase : 1 gen left, area to cover is extremely small. You have the advantage and survivors cannot win IF you are in a 3 gen situation. Slug to win time and apply more pressure.

    In all 3 phases, the most important is the gen/map control. You have to force them to finish the generators you want to be done. Don't let them finish the generators you selected to be the last ones in the 3rd phase. Downing survivors is NOT the priority, injure them and don't loose too much time to get a down. Apply gen pressure and deny the area you chose for the end phase.

    If you have never understand what i have just written here, it means you are a terrible killer and that you didn't understand the game mechanics at all. 😊

  • Gorik
    Gorik Member Posts: 133
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    Because you said killers have no reason to chase survivors around hooks which hurts their emblem. I was just going with that and ignoring survivors waiting for an unhook because heaven forbid I CHOSE to stop them and lose emblem points by chasing them when I see them after hooking and they have to loop the guy on the hook or die.

    Your idea of me not choosing to chase them around a hooked survivor is clearly better, so I will see them and say to myself " No JohnWeak said I have a choice damn it, and I chose to ignore the guy I blatantly see who is waiting for me to leave so they can get a unhook, that way its my choice and I am not ( as John stated ) being forced to be near the hook."

    I can't wait to see how that hot garbage turns out.

  • NekoTorvic
    NekoTorvic Member Posts: 765
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    You know what's low skill high reward? Holding M1 on separate generators 🙄

    Seriously, there is not a single thing in this game that is as low skill as doing generators...I guess maybe AFK wraith, but at that point you're not even playing.

    Until that is fixed, and killers actually need to be outplayed to be beaten, then despite the fact these tactics are annoying, i will be vehemently against getting rid of them, because ultimately, there are matches where survivors do nothing but hold m1. they go down instantly, they don't look behind them, they throw pallets down without even trying to make plays, and the only thing they do is hold M1 and somehow win the game. In those games, you get one out of the game asap, you force them out, because they're not entitled to free saves, they're not entitled to be spared or to have the killer go easy on them.

    How about that? how about they work for their saves and to stay alive instead of just having the game safeguard them and gift them rescues for free and getting them out of a chase for free? Countless times I have been DSd only for the survivor to die in less than 3 seconds after the stun, because they don't know how to chase, they just have a Jpeg to babysit them. At the very least, a killer going after someone over and over again, means they need to outplay that person for at least 1 hit over and over again, and while camping you have to manage potentially up to 3 people coming for the rescue.

    Ultimately though, I think both sides have stupid ways to end games quick by depriving the other of meaningful gameplay and by removing the need for themselves to perform as well as they would otherwise. I hate both, and I wish the game focused a little bit more on both sides having to outplay the other instead of it being Quick gens, vs tunneling, vs second chances, vs slugging, vs swf bullshit vs camping.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,970
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    How to say "I don't play killer" without actually saying "I don't play killer".


    Next killers aren't allowed to hit survivors.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    There is to much emphasis on additional chances. Put more effort into avoiding the killer and learn to escape chases.

    Every survivor has one chance which is everything before the first hook. Beyond that is entirely on teammates to grant anything additional in the way of play.

    Camping is beatable and extremely low reward unless survivors play the situation poorly.

  • Kalinikta
    Kalinikta Member Posts: 709
    edited September 2021
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    You state that the tipping point is 3 gens, 3 survivors and yet if the survivors are just decent it should mean that 2 gens are approximately done by the time the hook takes place. At that point you have 2 mins to complete 2 or 3 more...

    The fact that you believe that a game strategy is even remotely anywhere near the level of slurs, insults, etc. Is so out of touch with reality, people trying to win a game using tactics... stated by the developers to be within the rules. Mind boggling... what is next, haddonfield offerings are toxic, bringing a key or crawling under a pallet for a save? Both sides deal with things they won't like.... it is however not toxic. Your opponents aren't supposed to make it easy for you.

    The game isn't made to go for 12 hooks, it isn't reasonable to ask all killers to be the equivalent of a 3 to 10k hour player. Most of the time there is no malicious intent behind their actions, they simply are trying to win the game... also they aren't denying your ability to play the game, you were chased, you were downed and you died. Good survivors can deal with it... the get good argument cannot be one sided.

  • TonyDesfo
    TonyDesfo Member Posts: 5
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    The proxy camping and tunneling thing is a goddamn problem.

    I paid the game to have fun. But 1/3 I got some goddamn toxic players doing that.

    One day or another its going to be DbD's downfall. Just so many toxic players and the Devs say "its valid gameplay". Well, I can tell you that I have many friends that gave up on the game because of that, and I'm VERY CLOSE to drop it too because I'm tired of these toxic, crap players doing it and the Devs don't doing ANYTHING to solve this PROBLEM