Ignoring the Birch and the Look-See are we?
General Discussions
General Discussions
The Chatterer is the first LGBT+ Killer in DBD
gatsby
Member Posts: 2,533
In the lore of Hellraiser, the person that turned into the Cenobite Chatterer is LGBT+
Wow the representation finally happened through a legendary cosmetic of a character that wasn't created by Behavior. You love to see it?
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Comments
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But also he opened the box as a very young boy... so that isint very good and is quite gross. if you know what happens to the people who open that box.
but it also depends on what chatterer as there is 2 versions of his lore both cannon. one lgbt and one not from what i understand. the one ur thinking of i think is from the comics. while the other version is from the movie.
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Ignoring the Birch and the Look-See are we?
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If i rember correctly the birch is a straight women. i dont know much about looksee lore tho
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CryptTV posted something when addressing LGBT+ in June and said that, if I recall correctly, The Birch Witch was transgender, The Look-See was pansexual and The Mordeo was Genderqueer. I don't remember the details whatsoever.
Edit: I went to revise and corrected some misinformation.
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What are you talking about? It's a demon/angel from hell/heaven. Did someone unironically listen to the mortally challenged line from Doom Eternal and start including interdimensional monsters as a minority group??
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As I am not familiar with the comics, I don't know for certain what OP is talking about, but the Cenobites are considered demons/angels by most people although in their own lore they used to be humans that were transformed through a torturous transformation ritual.
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The Chatterer was gay as a person before they were turned into what they are.
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hmm i dont think they did or if they did that makes no sense. birch had a baby witch unfortunately trans women cant do. and i cant find anywhere about the look-see or mordeo queen, key word queen. they did makea pin to celebrate the pride but the only lgbt character i can think of from crypt are Daisy a Lesbian (would be an amazing skin for legion) and Alaska a drag queen
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Nevertheless, I'd like to point out I do not know the details, I hadn't watched their shows or know much from them.
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i know they were written by a trans-write cause the transformation from human to tree was a symbolism of transgenderism but the character themself are not trans.
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I mean, seriously dude? Talk about grasping at straws.
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i think it was just a little bit of pandering cause the canon story and lore doesn't add up at all.
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@VioletCrimes Who this monster was before being transformed doesn't matter. They're a cenobite now. Something that is distinctly non-human and cannot have human concepts such as gender and sexuality applied to them.
There is no representation here.
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I am not disagreeing with you because I don't know much or have the context about any of their productions, but I was just pointing out CryptTV did write that. If you scroll a bit up, you will see the conversation where they point out Look-See is pansexual and the Mordeo is Genderqueer although I believe they are talking about the Mordeo in general and not the Queen.
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yes the moredeo are a large group, sorry i got all chatty. as a part of the lgbt community when i see people claim characters are lgbt when there not its frustrating. cause either its the fan-canon or they grasp as straws.
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i think it cause chatterer and like the other cenobites used to be human. tho i think sexuality and gender was thrown out the door after they lost themselves to whatever makes the cenobites.
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Exactly my point! They're not human anymore. Therefore, they cannot represent anything that is human.
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eh now what i was getting at. there are def aliens and humanoids in media that are homosexual. but in this case they lost whatever was before. im still gonna count it as representation tho.
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Nea was described as gendernonconforming from the beginning. the entity as well.
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"Grasping at straws"
The straws
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Bro this is some reaching. I wouldn't consider those things human anymore. I don't think sexuality matters when it only cares about torturing others for some weird sexual pleasure.
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Oh yeah, it isn't the best form of representation known to mankind but it's still an lgbt+ character, alongside Look-See, Birch, and Mordeo, bringing our total up to 4.
And none of them were made by BHVR but I'm still hoping one day
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on12 -
What kind of representation are you vouching for if it groups up regular, everyday people with horrific monsters driven by sadomasochism?
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Personally I think representation should be a character who isn't defined by one specific trait but many of them together. Considering barely anyone knows Chatterer is lgbt+ he unironically fits the box- he isn't defined by the one specific trait but by a lot of movie appearances and the fact he's a Cenobite.
It isn't perfect, since again, Cenobite, but it's actually far from the worse form of "Stereotype Mc.Stereotype"
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Nea's got some cosmetics described as "for a nonconformist". that, and (though less solid evidence) her whole vibe.
The Entity was described by the devs at one point as being neither male not female. however, since in the original french, the entity is referred to as feminine, we can draw the conclusion the entity exists outside of the concept of the gender binary.
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I'm pretty sure the whole "nonconformist" aspect of her cosmetics is in relation to society as a whole, not specifically gender nonconformist.
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I thought that, but there was a specific quote that really convinced me.
I can't find it, but I'm sure it's still there.
also: Nea is the entity, so...
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Believe me if the case is you're correct I'll be absolutely delighted
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Ditto. Now, If only I could remember the quote...
I think it's on one of the undercut outfits with a ballcap. I'm not sure.
at the very least, undeniable vibes.
also: blighted legion contains all four of them, so... technically genderqueer? :/ maybe a bit of a stretch...
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No, while I do believe traits define us, bein defined by one trait alone is sad. So I understand what it getting at.
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This: "Personally I think representation should be a character who isn't defined by one specific trait but many of them together" Is something that I can fully agree on. I'm sick of seeing 1-dimensional characters who exist to fill a representation quota. But with being said, Chatterer is not even close to the representation you are looking for.
He is not human. He holds no human values. There is nothing about him that can be recognisable as human. Saying that he counts as LGBT- etc representation because in his lore he was human once.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on3 -
I didn't say that he was good representation though, I said that he was better than stereotypes.
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I don't think he's representation at all. And I think that we can both agree that creating a character solely to fill a quota makes them poor characters. I think that you judge representation too generously. If the character can't stand on their own, and exists only to be a collection of shallow human traits, then the only thing they represent is how to create a bad character.
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Correct. But in the fictional setting of Hellraiser what makes someone human can indeed be taken away and exchanged with something that isn't.
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"They're not human they're Cenobites."
They were all human before they were Cenobites, and in Hellraiser 2 they become human again (however briefly), while in Hellraiser 3 Elliot (AKA Pinhead) even helps you defeat... himself.
So whether or not a Cenobite is human, or can be human again, their human part existed or even still exists.
Again, it might not be good representation, but it's still there.
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What is true is that the character is confirmedly gay. The creators never said he stopped being so and you're overthinking about how he has had to lose his sexuality almost like if you owned the character lore.
Let gays be gay and don't try to imagine and inject others the idea of how he can't.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on9 -
In the end Chatterer counts as representation through backstory, even if now in his form he is not human anymore he is still a character in DbD that has a human backstory.
after all, all the characters have (part of) their sexuality only confirmed through backstory. Just look at Nurse: does she count as human while floating and obviously not being able to actually breath through the cloth? She is pretty much undead but in her backstory she is confirmed to have been deeply in love with her husband.
we will however get LGBTQ+ representation originally created by BHVR, so: does it really matter? Characters/character ‚traits‘ are not anymore explicitly excluded just for being LGBTQ+ and that is what matters for me..
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...It's difficult to sleep with this hot weather. But I'm knackered.
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At least for me Chatterer counts as representation through backstory of the character.
he might not be human anymore but he still has a human backstory that is canon.
and the point of this topic and discussion is about Chatterer and him being LGBTQ+ (or not). Of course people are talking about it then. Doesn’t mean anyone cares about nothing else.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on7 -
Pease be respectful in this discussion to each other - there is no need to attack each other. We also won't tolerate any comments that might be discriminatory nor any accusations towards someone in general.
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that's fine, but if you leave my comment why do you edit it and remove the quote of the person I was refering to? their messages and quotes aren't removed or edited, and I'm asking that person not to imply people they can't be gay with made up arguments about stuff that does not exist, which, are still in this dicussion
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But is it? I interpreted Elliot facing Pinhead as two separate entities. To that end, there is an argument to be made that Chatterer is not necessarily the kid anymore. In the movies, there is only Elliot or Pinhead. Like when they became human again, it wasn't Pinhead remembering so much as Pinhead literally turned into Elliot. And it is implied they are two parts of the same whole, yet we get the mostly just Pinhead thereafter.
Not that it is super important. I just do not think you should shoot down the possibility. Hell if I know given the Hellraiser movies make Kingdom Hearts seem straight forward. Lol.
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Even if you make the distinction that they're two seperate entities. Elliot Spencer exists, and Pinhead exists, they're two characters in Hellraiser, and their lore exists.
Likewise, The Chatterer and 'Jim' are both characters, and The Chatterer used to be Jim. So there's no reasonable way to suggest that 'Jim' is not part of the lore and therefore not (very minor) representation.
The parallel to Nurse is pretty watertight. If Sally Smithson is a character, and her past relationships are canon, which means The Nurse canonically isn't homosexual, even though The Nurse is just some kind of undead spirit hellbent on killing, then the reverse is true for The Chatterer.
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Welcome to being a queer person. All the Disney villains are queer coded and villains throughout the 20th century have been queer coded. There is a reason why queer people often love the villains: society bundled us with them and we embraced them as we had nothing else. There are also ton of youtube videos about it so if you want to go down a rabbit hole of some wonderful videos I highly recommend it.
Regarding Hellraiser a lot of people seem to forget that it was written(the novel: Hellbound Heart) and the subsequently directed by a queer author who goes by the name Clive Barker. So there is definitely an argument that the first two films have queer characters and metaphors. Hell, I recommend Nightbreed by Barker if you want to dwell into his rabbit hole of some excellent novels.
I was personally happy to see the Chatterer as a skin. Just wish they'd also make the Female Cenobite available.
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I think it is perfectly reasonable to believe that Chatterer is potentially not Jim and therefore not a LGBT icon. I genuinely feel as though Pinhead is a different character from Elliot. Like, Pinhead wasn't a soldier just because Elliot was, if that makes sense.
I am not sure how that is unreasonable per se, and I do not know enough about the franchise as a whole to confidently claim the demons are different than their host. But, I think it is possible.
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I do agree, I just thought I'd seen a developer comment about the entity specifying otherwise.
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Isnt bubba the first since he chnages his whole personality and identity based off his mask and he has numerous female masks.
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Oh dam, you´re right! He was the first representation character for trans/queer people ❤️
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WE STAN BUBBA :D
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I don't know if Bubba would really... Understand sexuality though. At least if we're going by the first movie alone, he seems very confused and distressed about most things.
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