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Did behavior mislead buyers with the chapter release?
Behavior released the ptb notes and stated that the removal of pinheads voicelines were due to a technical/bug issue. That being said in previous ptbs killers have released without their audio files and were added later and I'm sure myself and others were assuming these lines would be added back later when the issues were fixed.
However if it is actually a copyright issue and behavior lied about the reason for their removal, never intending to add the voicelines back, then they were less than forthcoming about the product they were intending to sell.
So did BHVR lie on the ptb patch notes about it being a technical issue, or will the voicelines be fixed? Have the devs said anything?
Comments
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According to Mandytalk, they will not disclose why they are removed. So it's just pure speculation at this point as to why the lines were removed.
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So they may have been dishonest, they just won't tell us? This lack of communication isn't good.
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When something happens to a horror game or movie series, always assume it's legal.
[BAD WORD] legal up the ass.
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Personally that makes it more than likely to be lisencing/copyright they would tell us if it was just a bug happening to it.
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The patch notes mentioned complications with the audio files. While you can reach and say this is supposed to mean voicelines licensing, many players like myself thought they simply meant issues with the files themselves.
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Yup. Guessing they ran into legal issues and made the vague comment about file complications so people would still buy the dlc. If it was a technical issue they'd be more open about it. If it IS a technical issue and this is how they've decided to handle it then they seriously need to work on communication.
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That's actually funny.
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Nope. And you're reading into the notes. I don't believe that they lied about the reason.
Excerpt from the patch notes:
Changes from PTB
The Cenobite
- The Cenobite's voice over lines have been removed due to complications with the audio files.
It says 'complications', not that it's a bug. Assumptions on anyone's part are not their responsibility. I assumed, since it's under 'changes' that it was considered a permanent removal. Does that mean they might come back or come back differently, sure.
Thing is, this came out BEFORE the character was even purchasable and it's still part of the notes. Caveat emptor. I saw this and chose to buy the character anyway. Sure, I buy things that feel different than I expected or I miss things when I make a purchase. I also have no problem recognizing that it's on me to catch that stuff. They present something to buy. You have a choice to buy it or not. For myself, and I believe for reasonable consumers who do any kind of basic due diligence (for a $5 purchase, less than an hour's parking in most major cities), the communication is fine.
How would you have done it differently, given the parameters of having to remove the voice lines but still sell the character? Skywriting? Amber alerts? Literally NOTHING will get to everyone. In fact, there are NO ways for a game company to communicate something that 100% of people will see. There will always be people who don't look, click and ignore, etc.
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It happens way more than it should and I catch it every time
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Yeah... I can see where people who want refunds for the removed voicelines are coming from. Even if you read the patch notes they were misleading.
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Yeah it says there are complications with the audio files, audio files being a very technical item within the game.
BHVR had a chance to clarify it was a licence issue, but instead they framed it as a technical sounding one. And they should have stated that more clearly.
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Nope. Nowhere do they indicate that the voice lines would be added back into the game. I don't expect the voice lines to return - I would had it been stated in the "Known bugs" patch notes.
If you have a question about something - you should probably ask that before you buy it...just saying.
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You're reaching. While I agree, this is obfuscating language on the part of Behaviour, your assumptions aren't their fault. Complications can mean a lot of things, and no one on the outside really knows what's up, it's all conjecture. Point is, though, that they've used a reasonable method to make it clear the voice is removed and, more importantly, it became VERY well known in the community very quickly so obviously, reasonable people figured it out right away. There's no reasonable way to present that they were misleading. In my opinion.
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BHVR says they will not be forthcoming with any further information, even though they can clarify this by being unequivocally truthful.
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You're acting like you expect BHVR to be transparent or something...
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The opposite of your reasoning is what led many to believe it's a legal basis. If they feel they might get into legal trouble or endanger the license by saying anything they won't. They might even have had to work with the licensing party on the language in the patch notes. They've said a number of times that they can't comment further in forums. THat all sounds like a perceived legal issue.
Of course, it could all be a smokescreen, trying to LOOK like a legal issue but it's some other reason, but you know, the most reasonable explanation is often true and for something like this here, that REALLY doesn't matter THAT much, I'm content with how they've handled it.
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If the patch notes declaring the Cenobite voice was removed due to complications before it was released for sale, then there is no just cause for deeming them misleading.
Complications is a weak term, but it's also a safe term. And unless the killer came out differently to the patch notes, and so long as the patch notes were issued before the Cenobite was available for purchase, then BHVR have covered themselves in so far as to misleading people to buying a product which is not sold as described.
I think there is a returns policy, maybe? I admit I'm very vague on that. Always wonder where someone stands if they demand a refund for a chapter, yet have learnt the teachables that appear in the bloodweb.
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Lol, thats true. I'm sure many players were expecting the new chapter to be a buggy mess too and the voicelines just another issue... and they certainly weren't wrong.
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If they said "cenobites voice removed due to complications," that'd be more straightforward, but they said "The Cenobite's voice over lines have been removed due to complications with the audio files. Which is a much more technical statement and suggests that the issue was with something from the game, rather than licensing.
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I'm upset that the line was removed but I don't blame BHVR for wording the explanation the way that they did. First, they're not obligated to say anything about it (it would have been worse if they hadn't, but they still weren't obligated). Second, I think a lot of people don't understand just how ridiculously tight some things are when dealing with licenses, contracts, the PR department, legal, etc. When I playtested a WWE game back in 2013 I couldn't even say something as basic as "lots of people who were playing the game chose the same character".
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It is a very safe term, and also one subject to a lot of equivocation. Even so, why did they mention audio files then? They could have stopped at just saying complications.
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Yeah, probably what they meant is:
(Licensing) complications with audio files
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Ever think maybe they CAN'T be forthcoming? Jesus H. They gave what answer they either can or feel comfortable giving...period...end of story. You have no right to know the inner workings of BHVR or WHY the voice lines are not in the game - really you don't. They stated the voice lines weren't in the release - if you bought it without reading the patch notes - that's on you. If you had a question on if they would be returning - asking that question BEFORE you bought the DLC...is on you.
Look the OP asked if I felt players were misled - and I answered. No... I wasn't misled. I don't ever expect the voice lines to return. Had they been disabled due to a BUG - it would have been in the KNOWN BUGS section of the patch notes.
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Then they should clarify that, to clear up this confusion. Even just change it to "issues with the voice lines used"
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Assuming it IS licensing issues, they may be beholden to not say it is licensing issues.
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If they can't be forthcoming due to legal issues, then they can at least offer refunds to players who have. You say consumers have to right to ask about products they wish to purchase, I disagree.
In a similar vein, he only people who can clear up this issue is BHVR, and they haven't said anything.
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Then they should do what they can and offer refunds if possible for those mislead by their equivocal statements.
This catch-22 of if you were mislead by our statement we cant tell you, is frustrating to some who purchased the chapter and others who want to buy it.
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It could be for a few reasons:
1. It could have been a complication with audio files for a technical reason only (converting to console, bugs occuring when being said, etc..)
2. It can still mean a legal issue, thanks to the use of "complications", such as some licensing problem with the words (The whole "I came" meme may have upset the license holders who, quite rightly, don't want their character to be some sort of joke).
3. There could have been other less likely issues, like the voice actor decided he didn't want his work in the chapter, or even the files were somehow hacked or lost.
The main thing at this stage people need to be aware of is that declaring BHVR a liar, with such descriptions, is actually paramount to libel, so although there may be some speculation, people need to be careful about how they go about enquiring on this.
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Why? They clearly stated that the voice line was removed in the patch notes. There are posts literally everywhere of people stating that it's been removed. I made the informed decision to purchase knowing it was removed. If someone didn't see that it was removed and then made the purchase, I could see that they could compassionately allow a refund but there's certainly no requirement to do so.
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I agree, its more like they were giving misleading/equivocal statements than outright lying.
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Then that's their fault for signing the contract. If the contract had some term that may make them look very bad to their customers and they decided to sign anyway, that's on them. It definitely doesn't get them off the hook to just say their hands are tied. They tied their own hands on this one.
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- The patch notes stated there was no voice-lines. Read before you buy something
- They were forthcoming - they made that information available before the DLC was purchasable.
- You can ask - they don't have to tell you the explicit details - they gave what information they could or wanted to give - which was: no voice lines.
Get over it. Learn to ask questions or seek out information - whether you are buying a $5 DLC or a $50k vehicle. Seriously.
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I think many players thought it was removed due to issues with the game files, and by this I mean the buggy state of the chapter than out of studio issues. They mention game files as their reason.
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They were, from what I can tell, phrasing things in a way that was truthful yet carefully phrased. That's typical for any business.
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They said there were issues with game files, not that it was a licensing issue. A more straightforward and unequivocal answer would have gotten the point across more clearly. And this is me asking questions, is it a licensing issue or game file issue, I want to know before I buy.
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Part of representing the product as viable for purchase isn't explaining why. They removed the voice. Buy or not. If you missed that the voice was removed, that's on you.
I guess you're saying they deliberately lied and were going to remove the voice all along? That it was in the PTB just to attract more sales and then they craftily pulled the rug out at the last second? I guess that might work on some..... But I still think it's on the buyer in that case.
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That is not what I am saying, I am saying they should stated that the issue was one of licensing, rather than an issue with game files like they mentioned.
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I've worked on licensed products in the past, and sometimes you just can't state that. You would be surprised some of the clauses in a licensing agreement, especially ones specifically constructed so absolutely nothing can be said to even remotely make the licensor look bad in the customers' eyes.
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Unfortunately they also phrased it in a way that was ambiguous and open to interpretation. I understand if they can't say anything more, but if so they should at least allow refunds to those who felt they were mislead.
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It is entirely possible they cannot say that because licensing is a #########. Especially for a horror franchise.
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Its frustrating that BHVR can't clarify/apologize and instead leaves us to debate the ambiguity of their statements.
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Even so, was there no better way of stating it than saying it was due to game files?
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Did you just visit thesaurus.com or something?? Your past three posts you keep saying "unequivocal" like that somehow "wins" your argument.
A corporation has no DUTY to inform you WHY a product has changed from pre-launch to launch - PERIOD.
It was clearly stated that the product was being released without the voice-lines - the WHY has no bearing on the product. You have no right to know the WHY - seriously.. you don't.
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From a consumer standpoint, it is frustrating, indeed.
If it is a licensing issues, though, BHVR really did it to themselves at this point. The whole "I came" voiceline my 11-year-old immediately recognized as a bad meme. The adults at BHVR should have damned well known that. And with the Hellraiser movie reboot on the plate, not to mention a proposed TV series from HBO, there was no way in Hell the licensor would let that go out and Pinhead become a joke.
If . . . and I stress if . . . it was a licensing issue.
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Their statement wasn't ambiguous - the voice lines were removed. Pretty straight-forward. Your issue seems to be with the why - which frankly is none of our business and isn't relevant.
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Someone said it was unfair to behavior to outright call them liars. I agree, so that is why I am using that word, I am not expecting that word to be any more or less impactful then calling them liars, just more applicable and fair.
Additionally these products are being sold as a service, with the understanding and even expectation that these things can and do change. So when they say game files are being removed, if they are removed due to problems with the game files or licensing issues will have two different set of expectations conveyed, the interpretation of which is left (perhaps deliberately so, due to legal reasons) to the reader. It is this perhaps legally-bound equivocal statement which is the source of the ambiguity being discussed in this thread.
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I guess my last bit on this, like anyone cares about opinion at this point... is...
You could just say 'hey, I bought this and I don't like it without the voice' or 'hey, you had the voice in test and now it doesn't' and try for a refund. I'd suggest you'd likely get it.
Otherwise, if this is somehow about like.... a lawsuit or some kind of legal standing, not gonna happen.
In other news, I think I've 'spent' more than $5 of my time on this thread at this point....
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True... I can see how the IP holders might want to distance themselves from the sillier aspects of the Hellraiser series.
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Ugh can we please get an ignore/block feature on these forums already.
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Legally, BHVR could just shut down the game tomorrow like they did with Deathgarden. It would be a ######### move to do so, but they have no DUTY to keep this game up. But it would be ######### to do that.
They have no DUTY to give us more info about these voice lines and no DUTY to post about it in a place more public than the patch notes which not everyone needs. It doesn't mean that it's not ######### of them to do so.
If BHVR wants to set the precedent that they'll only do what they're legally required to for their customers, those customers won't stick around for long.
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