What is the point of SBMM if we can't see our MMR rank, and can't ever compare it to other players?
So, the new grades are the same as the previous rank bands, with a fresh coat of paint and the same pip-based system. Except now, you can never drop to a lower rank, and everybody earns BP rewards based on where they end up, then everyone gets reset to Ash IV on the 13th of each month.
But now our actual game rank -- our MMR -- is an entirely separate score, it is kept hidden from us at all times, and we do not know what in-game actions influence it. Basically, Behaviour is saying "just trust us," with no transparency into how the system works. So what is even the point of it? It may as well not be there, if we can't see it and don't know what influences it, or whether we have gotten better or worse at the game over time. All we can do is guess.
Why is it like this? How exactly is this an improvement, from the player's perspective? You guys said in your recent SBMM update post that your data is all very positive, and it's working great, and resulting in fairer matches. But on our end, it's completely opaque and we have no numerical rank to help us discern whether we are improving at the game. So why would you not just show this number to us? Why is our only visible number now just purely "how much you've played" instead of "how well you've played"?
(EDIT: Also, just to get out in front of it -- I know the previous system was not perfect. But this new system seems like some real Office Space-caliber engineer logic, just layering another system on top of an already confusing system to make it even more wonky, while also taking away information that we previously had, and not bothering to account for the possibility that it is not very friendly to the player at all.)
Comments
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If everyone is a winner then the balance problems don't matter... right?
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It definitely feels like a bit of a "Let's give players a convenient scapegoat to feed their egos, and let them assume they got matched with low-MMR teammates if they do badly, or assume they are badass high-MMR players when they do well" solution, as if people aren't gonna see through that like a piece of cellophane wrap.
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Yeah, I don't get it either. My matchmaking has given better quality team mates, which is nice, but at the same time, I can't help but miss striving for something.
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because your mmr is irrelevant. as long as you are getting good matches, why would it matter?
giving it a number will just make people go "look at this mess". and they will go "look at this mess" with ANY number showing, because people just want stuff to complain about.
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Right, I'm happy with that part -- if they did indeed figure it out, then that's great. I just want to understand where my teammates and I sit, in the grand scheme of things. If things are going as swimmingly as they'd hoped, I don't get why there's all this secrecy around displaying an MMR number, or why they won't tell us why there's all this secrecy.
I'm as annoyed about the fact that they won't acknowledge the secrecy, as I am about the actual secrecy.
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Given the choice, I'd rather complain about hard data than random unknowable factors, because at least the hard data would focus their efforts.
All this is gonna do is make people wrongly assume that the new grades are still representative of your rank, and continue to complain about that, because it's the only number they can see. Nobody reads patch notes other than the really devoted players on forums and Reddit. We're already seeing tweets like this one, and I'm betting it's not gonna stop.
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The point was to have fun matches so your playing with players of your skill level. It's kind of why the bulls don't play against elementary kids. It's not fun for anyone
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"my matches are too easy/hard" is a random unknowable factor? then giving it a number means nothing, because you are just following the number.
if people are wrong, people are wrong. people will complain either way.
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Why do you think you need to show a number to achieve that?
if you had a good match, you had a good match. numbers be damned.
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Becuase the idea is to have people of similar skill play with you. By hiding the numbers when they it prevents people from reporting when the ranking system isn't working either becuasw they find they number not going up or down depending on play or being matched with wildly different numbered players.
Unless you think the devs have managed to produce something that isn't already broken or soon to be broken in which case boy are you in for a rude awaking if you keep playing. The devs are notorious for not being capable of fixing the bugs they have been told about let alone 6hose they are unaware of
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People will just invent reasons in their head for why this is the case, why they did well or poorly, etc., especially when they have no solid information to base this one. A hard, factual number at least gives them something to hang all of this on. Yes, people will complain either way, but again I'd rather complain about something I don't have to 100% guess about.
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Right.
If this is a good system that the devs are confident in, there's no reason to hide MMR information.
If it's a shaky system that maybe doesn't work as well as they want, it's going to be obvious anyway and they should just take their lumps instead of trying to hide it.
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Or more importantly get to fixing it later ad opposed to much much later
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when you have a bad match, you know the system messed up. You don't need a number.
and when it keeps happening, you know it has some bug. again, you don't need a number.
when did I say it's perfect? I'm saying showing a number is irrelevant.
people will just ignore the mistakes they made in the match and go "they have higher MMR, that's why I lost".
giving it a number just creates a target. it doesn't do anything for the players involved.
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You do if your trying to show the system isn't working right. Becuase a feeling isn't something reliable, and possibly more problematic would be that the numbers are matching up but the criteria for the numbers is so terrible that it doesn't work out either. Which again can't be discussed becusse of hiding the numbers. Now I've given some reasons why the numbers being shown is a good thing, why exactly do you want them to remain hidden?
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Because people will just do the same thing they did with the old system. Instead of looking at the quality of the match, they are just going to say "I have ___ MMR and I'm getting paired with people with ___ MMR" even though the match was balanced.
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A target is better than a wild guess.
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so you just want to find an issue... congrats... you are the problem. People like you are why these things stay hidden.
because before you understand how something works you just wanna point at a number and say "THIS SCREWED ME".
bhvr has the data. if you had bad matches just go tell them "hey, I had bad matches". and there you go.
numbers won't do anything for you. for many reasons
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not when the target is not the issue. which it isn't.
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Hey devs I had a bad match.
Response well our system is in place also maybe you just played bad also maybe you just wanted an easy win.
Hey devs you paired me with people woth one quarter my skill level
Response oh its a bug we can eventually fix that
See how one is useful and one us just ignoraable becuas it may just be whineing
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Lack of transparency has been my #1 concern all along. Now we have no way to quantify if the SBMM was proper other than "feeling." You could get terrible matchmaking and have no way to prove it. We have to trust that it's all working correctly based on nothing but faith. Time to start praying to the SBMM gods, I guess.
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What would you say the issue is that they are solving here?
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They should definitely let people see the MMR of everyone.
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I dunno if it's the same for DBD but I play some FPS that don't show MMR so that it's harder for people to smurf. Could be a similar thing here idk.
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BHVR is probably keeping us from knowing what influences mmr because they saw how well THAT went when they showed us what influenced pips for our rank. They needed a new system because they did that. Also, as others have said, it's harder to smurf with mmr which is a plus.
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My games were just as inconsistent before.
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Yeah, but in those games (like, say, Overwatch) there are leagues and brackets that give you a broad sense of where you stand in ranked play. Also, it's pretty obvious what contributes to your rating -- kills and victories. DBD is nebulous here, and has no leagues that give you a sense of how well you're playing. They could find some way to do it without showing you a flat number.
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If they don't want us to know what kinds of stuff influences our ranking, that says everything about the ranking system. It basically sounds like another way of saying "This is bad, and we know it's bad, but we just don't really want to hear about it." There's something really wrong with that, no?
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What's the point of SBMM if it doesn't work to begin with.
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Because BHVR doesn't want anyone to know just how poorly their systems are made. The last game I had, my other 3 team mates had less than 100 hours, I have over 1k, killer had over 2k. Killer was full meta, survivors in some cases didn't even have perks.
It's likely some awful system that does this:
Killer MMR: 5000
Survivor 1 MMR: 6000
Hmm, how are we going to evenly match this? Oh, I know:
Survivor 2, 3 and 4 MMR: 100 each
There. "Balanced".
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We do not need to see our rank to have better matchmaking.
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But we can't possibly know if we are getting good matches without it being exposed. How do i know that the sweaty SWF squad i went against is actually my mmr?
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Why can't the devs just be more transparent? At least let each player know their mmr or link a player rank to mmr (if you are going to keep it hidden) so they know where they stand and how good they are. These gives players who wanna get better a goal to work towards. Meanwhile the casuals will just stay at the mmr they are and they wouldn't be matched with the sweaty. With the current system, there's no feedback at all. I don't even know if I'm getting good or getting bad at the game. Its like the devs are trying to force everyone to become casuals.
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Nebulous is the PERFECT word for it it's why I felt a bit hesitant mentioning it with FPS games because it's obvious with them what messes with your MMR and stuff
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Just blindly trust BHVR like most of this forum does.
If you have good match, sbmm works and if you had bad match it will adjust to your skill level in few matches.
Doesnt matter if your experience with it is just bad, people will tell you its good.
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While I think that devs did a right thing by hiding the exact MMR so people can't abuse it, some indication would be appreciated. I want to know if I am good in the game or not. We need a league system, or something like that.
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It's there to provide better match making and thus a better and more fair game experience.
DBD is not a super competitive hardcore game like League of Legends or Counter Strike and it can't be without being completely reworked. You're not able to see your MMR because you're not supposed to chase after it. It's simply just sitting there for less stompy games.
I understand that most people don't see the point in that because everybody is so accustomed to "push that rating" of literally every other PvP game, but DBD is different. It's a far too casual and unbalanced game to be compared to other games and their match making / ranking systems.
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That is the irony, they complain about them making the game too competitive and want a merit based skill rating. Like, what?
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And yet people in Overwatch, LoL, DotA, CS:GO, Valorant and every other competitive game with a ladder system STILL blame their team mates and call them "bad" and "wood elo" even though they should know they're roughly around the same skill level due to their visible league/rank.
Cognitive Dissonance and the Dunning Kruger effect exist and will remain in existence and plague every match making system there is.
I mean in LoL even existed a placebo "Report for bad skill" button for some time.. think about it...
It doesn't matter if people see their rankings/MMR. People will still blame other people for being bad or the match making for sucking balls because they got matched with donkeys even though those players have the same MMR / visible rank.
I'd even say the magnitude of this issue is one of the highest in DbD.
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Yeah I don't see any reason to actually make MMR visible. There are reasons but no good reasons imo. See my reply to Rydog right below your reply to me.
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I am competitive.
I want to know if I'm good. I'd like to see how good I am.
If my matches are going to take a nose-dive fun wise (which so far they have) and if I'm going to sit in 35 minute queues (as I am right now) then I'd like to at LEAST be able to see how I stack up.
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What you're saying about those games is absolutely true, but you can't solve for human nature -- which I think is what it boils down to, especially since video games are easy to make these kinds of excuses for, with little to no consequence.
But if there's an MMR system, yet we don't see any evidence of its existence in the game (via some sort of straight-up MMR number or league ranking system a la League of Legends or StarCraft II), then what's the point of Behaviour even telling us that it exists? Great, now there's a ranking system, but we can't see any of its impact. We can guess (from the outcome of individual matches and perceived teammate/opponent performance), but that's all we can do.
If I'm going to blame the game's matchmaking for this or that, I'd at least rather have a solid factual piece of information to pin it to, rather than my feelings and hunches. And I'd like some transparency into what actions impact it. I'd like to know whether I am getting better at the game or not. Otherwise, what's the point of having MMR? What was the point of even telling us that this is now the system?
EDIT: Also to respond to this... if it's not an appropriately competitive game, an Elo-esque rating doesn't seem well-suited to it. And if they just wanted less stompy games, then they should have quietly implemented this without saying anything. "You're not supposed to chase after it" -- give me a break, of course players are gonna want to chase after it. Again, solving for human nature, not a thing.
Heck, I'm not noticing any of my matches being any more or less stompy than they were before. But at least before this week, I had a rank that ebbed and flowed with my performance.
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That's fine, so am I but this is ultimately the wrong game to be competitive in.
I also enjoy seeing my skill represented by an emblem/rank in games that are not atrociously balanced. DbD is not one of them.
If you really are competitive your sense of "fun" should be that you're playing fair and balanced games which most of the time will be close matches. This is what MMR will or should do in the long run. Your experience withing 24 hours of MMR going live is not relevant. MMR needs to adjust itself (in every game) before working properly. We'll see if it'll work in DbD.
If your sense of fun is stomping worse players then you're not competitive but you like to see yourself as competitive.
Either way - MMR just got implemented. Let people play a few weeks for it to properly adjust. If it's still a mess in a few weeks/months then we have reasons to complain.
If people want to SEE their skill level represented they should not ask for better match making or MMR. None of those things visibly represent your skill level. The correct thing to ask for, in that case, would be a proper ranked mode.
A real ranked mode in DbD is more of a bad joke than what it's worth though imo.
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Where I play, there is no balance.
High MMR is not fair in any sense of the word.
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Despite our butting heads in this thread, I agree with everything you've said here.
Although, you say "If it's still a mess in a few weeks/months then we have reasons to complain." What would we base that sentiment on though, exactly? We can't see or compare any sort of rank, and therefore we don't have any information (beyond gut feelings) to conclude that it is (or isn't) a mess.
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We didn't get a ranking system, we got a proper match making system. Two fundamentally different things. One is a visual representation of skill which is to be pursued after while the latter is a system to make games more fair and balanced.
The reasoning behind telling us "hey we got this new system" was not to tell us to "go and grind that shite out" it was to tell "hey, we have a new match making system which should help you in find matches of equal skill you you won't stomp/get stomped".
An Elo-esque rating system exists in every game even in unranked modes, just completely invisible. Again - it's not meant to REPRESENT your skill, it's meant to make your matches less of a clusterfuck than they have been in the past.
I absolutely agree with your take on human nature. I also really enjoy grinding ranks in other games (don't really care in DbD though) and people of course want to see their skills represented. Maybe the devs should've just told us that we're gonna get a new match making system which should balance things out instead of throwing in the "MMR" buzzword and trigger everybody's instinct of wanting to push that rating.
Lastly the MMR system has been out for less than 24hrs. MMR systems need to adjust themselves over a decent amount of games. You won't notice the MMR working properly in ANY game within the first day of its implementation. That's why every other games forces you to play a vast amount of unranked matches before you're allowed to play ranked - this is because unranked adjusts your MMR which gets ported over to ranked.
So our first day experience is saying absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of the new MMR system.
The previous system was just a joke with 50% of killers (on steam) having reached rank 1. Imagine 50% of LoL players being challenger. That's not how match making is supposed to work.
I'd even go as far as to say that it's hard to NOT reach rank 1 if you play a lot, even without getting better. The previous ranking system was no match making system and had almost nothing to do with performance. Sure sometimes you pipped, sometimes you de-pipped but in the end you were almost guaranteed to reach r1 if you play enough games.
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Again - Your experience withing 24 hours of MMR going live is not relevant. MMR needs to adjust itself (in every game) before working properly. We'll see if it'll work in DbD.
You should start to notice an effect of MMR after a decent amount of games. I'd say about 50-100. If the system really works.
It can't work within your first 10 games.
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That's blatantly false.
BHVR has been collecting data for years, wiped it and then collected another 6 months worth.
The system should be working now, and if it isn't, it's broken.
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That's actually a good point you're bringing up here and I can't give you a good answer to that. But assuming we would have those numbers.. like, let's say we're playing on 3400MMR and every other survivors and also the killer has an MMR ranging from 3300-3500. In this scenario we'd have ,objectively speaking, a pretty well balanced match (MMR wise).
Yet the loosing side probably still would complain about having lost and also could complain about the MMR system not working properly.
What values do those numbers hold if we don't know if those numbers get assigned properly? Why would we blindly believe that arbitrary number but not believe in the system without seeing the number?
In the end all we can do is to tell BHVR that we think it's not working properly and they need to take a look at it.
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... With a matchmaking system that the community collectively agrees is #########.
Yeah no ######### the data is not perfect. That's why you have to wait a couple of weeks until things settle.
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