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Why does nemesis need to hit survivors three times?
Nemesis is the only killer that needs to hit 3 times. What is the effect of the T virus?
Comments
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Actually Nemesis can down survivors in two hits like everyone else
or did. you just mean his power? Because that has other factors than just downing. Keep in mind there are other powers that are not able to down survivors at all..
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Because the devs only playtested this against bad Survivors. They've said he's going to stay like this unfortunately.
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Nemesis only need 2 hits if you use regular M1 (basic attacks). The whip is there to apply the virus. if they are infected you can damage people from long distances and over obstacles with the whip.
Your Zombies can also damage them if they're infected. I've had several situations where the survivor was infected, I punched them and they ran straight into a zombie around a corner and was downed.
The virus also make survivors go out of their way to cure it, keeping them off gens.
Edit: The virus also make them cough so they make extra sounds even when in the healed state.
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Because it's a projectile that is thrown as fast as Deathslinger's harpoon, barely has a movement speed penalty, recovers faster than a M1 hit and can basically walk through dropped pallets.
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Because this game survivor sided, literally any other killer has a faster time downing than nemesis, people play killers for their unique powers not to m1 people to death, just look at billy, you can’t even use your power at almost every loop and are force to m1 just for them to leave the loop, it’s a shame having majority of killers are a one trick ponies that can easily beat by any survivor with a brain
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Pssst Doctor says hello. His power (Shock therapy) increases madness by .5 each hit. So it takes 6 Shock therapy hits to get a survivor to tier 3 madness - which even then does not injure the survivor it only stops them performing certain actions - healing, gens, totems, etc.
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Getting whipped makes you noisier, weakens vaults/pallets strength and turns zombies into a bigger hazard. The same argument can apply to Legion, where its benefits are only shown if you use the power at the right time.
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It's hilariously bad on a good survivor. People underestimate how nutty the fact that you get TWO sprint boost from getting injured is = More distance. You can argue that you're setting up for tentacle shennanigans but IMO the penalty is too much and easily healed.
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Fully agree. Add on the fact that there are 4 vaccines and you have 8 free hits you have to give away per game
It is always a night and day difference when I switch from playing Nemmy to playing an actually good killer. This iteration of nemmy is such a disappointment
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Their purpose is to make Nemesis looks like a killer who grow stronger over time. As it goes like this:
3 hit, short tentacle range -> 2 hit, tentacle destroy pallet & longer range
8 free hits doesnt mean you always do it on your own. Sometimes zombies do it.
Though I think if Nemesis success hitting tentacle on NON-affected survivor for 3 times. Another zombie spawn (not respawn if killed though). That would make survivors consider between getting vaccin or not.
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It's just a mechanic similar to Plague. Something to shake things up, without really shaking it up very much at all.
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Meanwhile Trickster needs to hit Survivors 12 times to get a down.
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Because once you tier up you can use your whip to shred pallets insanely fast, so you have to invest a bit of time at the start of the match. Also the whip is a ranged attack that is threatening even at very safe pallets and windows and it has pretty good fine control (compared to Pyramidhead’s power), doesn’t need reloading (compared to Huntress and Trickster’s power), and can down survivors (compared to Plague’s vile purge).
You don’t have to whip every single survivor at every opportunity and hit them three times. You should definitely try to get infections early on and tier up, and whip when you wouldn’t otherwise get a hit, but then sometimes just the threat of your whip is enough to get a survivor to try and avoid it so you can get an M1, or even just the ability to break pre-thrown pallets can get you much faster M1s. You have to consider when and where to use it.
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It's a pre-requisite for being able to use a mid ranged attack that hits through pallets and windows. They can only recover from it 4 times (3 times if you use broken recovery coin) so it's not that bad.
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Legion exists and you're saying this unironically?
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If you have the contaminated effect it will damaged your health states by zombies attacking you or Nemesis trying to use his tentacle. If you use the vaccine it will stop the t-virus and then you don't have to deal with it.
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becasue lazy and once again incompetent balance team sadly... definitely tested on bad survivors for sure. Getting free speed boost is definitely fail of development and balance team and should be issued, and it could be done differently.. so yeah nemi is gonna be B tear all along.. really cant wait if they will adress pinhead and his heavy balance issues after their gathering of datas after month and a half.. even super new player would make it better than them and sorry its true just in case im gonna be banned from forum for any reason what so ever right ?
Thats how things on this forum goes in these days anyway
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Because the "fun meme" is driving current killer design. Probably starting with nemesis and for the next few killers I imagine "survivor fun" is going to be a major bullet point to most killer power designs. Why is it that since nemesis has been introduced killers powers either A) Require huge ramp up time to be good or B) are absolute ######### tier/do nothing, ala pinheads chains that only slow, can be broken by the environment, and do nothing to stop a survivor form vaulting/throwing down a pallet?
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I believe it's like this to counteract his zombies/ability to destroy survivor defenses at a intense rate. Zombies (not mine) can infect/injure, block vaults, and chase off gens. His tentacle after tier 1 gets stronger and damn near OP. This is obviously my opinion and I agree with how he is now (except maybe a buff to tier 3 yes another one) a moderately increase to tentacle strike range is all i ask (currently slightly).
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I wouldnt care as much about having to hit them 3 times if it wasnt for the speed burst they get from being infected. Nemesis has so much potential but they ofc had to mess it up somehow
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Yeah, us Legion mains have to run a purple addon and hit people 5 times just to down them, y'all Nemesis mains have it good.
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"Insanely fast"
Nemesis takes .35 seconds to pull out the whip and his recovery animation is 2.5 seconds. To break a pallet by just kicking it like every killer is 2.6 seconds. The real reason it feels fast is because normally if you're going to break a pallet you have to respect it's huge hitbox so you don't eat the stun despite not being near the pallet. Nemesis can just whip from a distance so he doesn't have to worry about the stun despite his tentacle taking more time to come out. But if you wanted a killer that can bust up pallets there are a ton more that do it way better. His ability to break pallets really isn't that great.
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So Huntress should be 3 hit too?
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Getting them contaminated isn't worth having to hit them 3 times when Zombie's almost never get hits
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This barely counts as he can down them within their speed boost when they are damaged
Nemesis cannot do that and offers them 2 speed boost for the first down
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Huntress has a 1,5 seconds wind up compared to the 0,35 seconds Nemesis has, is slowed down to around 60% MS so she can't fake her attack like Nemesis can, moves at 110% and doesn't break pallets with her hatchets. The only advantage in chase she has above Nemesis is range, because in actual loops it's way easier to hit attacks with the Tentacle.
Not even to mention Huntress doesn't have zombies.
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This is only true if you don't use audio to track the survivors or want to have the ability to damage people during/after vaults or over terrain. Don't underestimate the whip's power.
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It’s not fast in terms of baseline numbers, but baseline numbers aren’t the only thing to consider when talking about overall efficiency. Like you pointed out, you don’t have to risk the stun, and survivors will typically throw pallets faster against Nemesis than against most other killers - same as with Leatherface, except Nemesis doesn’t have his charge time (or charge replenishing time). They either drop it fast and you start to break it almost as soon as it’s dropped with no stun recovery and a very quick wind up, or they loop it and you punch them. Because of the fast wind up and the minor reduction in movespeed when charging your whip, respecting is not punishing at all.
I can’t think of any other killers that are better at getting pallets down and breaking them quickly. Maybe Demo. But against most other killers you will get survivors that can successfully greed pallets, which is not really viable against Nemesis.
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But on the loops where Huntress's power is valid, there's less counterplay for Huntress than Nemesis. Due to Nemesis' range constraints, a survivor can take a loop wide causing them to be safe from the whip. This is not an issue for Huntress. Pallets stuns also interrupt the tentacle attack while it won't interrupt a hatchet toss. The only thing that would make Nemesis better at filler loops is that survivors can't cheese the fight by dropping pallet one loop early, and even then, depending on the loop shape, Huntress can still get the hit. This is also not even factoring in that Huntress will just outright be better at any windowed loop due to how temperamental that angles are on the whip requiring him to be closer to the survivor than huntress to seal off a window. Also, Huntress has her own style of zoning. Anywhere in her line of sight is a target.
So, in conclusion, Nemesis is only debatably better than Huntress on the weakest tiles in the game, and that's apparently justification enough to not only require winning the chase 3 times before a down, but give a survivor 2 free spring bursts that turns even correctly executed usages of your power game loosing chases against good survivors. Fantastic.
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Huntress has a much longer wind-up period before being able to throw her hatchets, her hatchets also cannot go over many obstacles at close range or break pallets.
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As I said, Huntress has a WAY longer wind up than Nemesis, so the survivor has way more than time to react. Nemesis unleashes his attack so fast that you can fast vault a window and in the middle of the animation he can take out his whip and attack you before you're done vaulting. I feel you're understimating Nemesis range there too, 5 or 6m is enough to get hits at the shack window that you wouldn't get with a M1.
I don't get it when you say "take a loop wide". He's still moving at 115% on your direction, if you don't hug the loop he'll just close the distance and M1 you anyway.
On pallet loops Nemesis is also way harder to deal with. Against Huntress, each loop you basically have a 50/50 chance of Huntress winding up her hatchet to try and get a hit while you drop the pallet. If she misses that, she's slowed down so much that the survivor can easily get another loop. With Nemesis, if you try that, he only gets slowed down to 95% MS (100% on tier 3!), so you'll probably be hit with a M1 before you do another loop.
I don't even need to talk about his zoning. The guy shreds through pallets faster than Demo and Bubba.
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Huntress doesn't need Zombies she can cross map snipe
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They must have play tested against each other then.
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Which is super situational because she makes a sound cue whenever her hatchet is fully charged. Cross maps were also nerfed with the Realm Beyond when devs started adding trees and rocks everywhere.
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Yes, that's the trade-off in range. He can't hit you if he starts in the middle of the vault animation. That's a huge exaggeration. The best he can manage is start the windup just before the vault animation begins and get a hit, and unless he's tier 3, he's outright inferior to Demogorgon in this regard, and that's not debatable. It comes down to their numbers. If you got hit by the tentacle at shack at anything less than tier 3, you're reacting slowly, or lost a mindgame that led up to the tentacle attack landing.
He moves at 90s when charging the tentacle. Canceling it means he moves at Myer's T1 speed. It's a similar principle to Pyramid Head's corner shots. Either he wants to hit you, and taking it wide results in a miss that you can punish, or it was a bait, and he'll catch up.
This is why I brought up loop shape. Depending on the loop shape, it's actually 2 50/50s. The 50/50 at the pallet, and then, with proper timing and preaiming from the Huntress, a 50/50 on the loop's side. And, again, if Nemesis' entire advantage is small pallet loops, his demerits are not proportional to his power's value. Also, you are outright wrong on missed hits. If he holds the tentacle, he's moving at 95% or 100%. This does not apply to misses. It's the standard cooldown speed. A Huntress missing is actually moving in the 90s for 2 seconds, which is both faster and shorter than Nemesis's misses. God help you if Huntress is using cooldown add-ons. which are low-rarity.
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It's not an exageration. As I said, he has a wind up time of 0.35 seconds, that's faster than the vaulting speed of survivors. He's not "outright inferior" to Demo because Demo doesn't hit over loops like Nemesis. Although in shack both are very similar, Demo still takes 0.65 seconds just do a quick shred (the normal one takes 1 second). There's no "reacting slowly" because the guy unleashes his attack faster than you can react to it and move your character (human average reaction time is 0.25 seconds, and you can't dodge an attack in DBD on 0.10 seconds).
Even if you call the bait out the guy cancels his attack so fast he'll just M1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzwHDZwGJVc&ab_channel=D3ADPlays put at 0:41 and see how he can literally pull out his attack in the middle of the animation and still hit the attack, and that's still Tier 1 range.
Same video, put at 2:54. How can Felix react there? 0.35 seconds to unleash an attack is faster than human reaction, best he can do is running the outside, but then Nemesis doesn't even have to do nothing to get a M1.
6:48. Again, he unleashes a tentacle faster than the Leon can even vault the window.
7:08. He puts out the tentacle and Leon tries the "running wide" thing you talk about. He cancels it and gets a M1. Against Huntress Leon would have made the pallet.
There's no "50/50" at pallets with Nemesis, don't know why you insist that:
- Huntress: you arrive at a pallet loop and she raises her hatchet. You call out that and continue running, so you make another loop safely.
- Nemesis: you arrive at a pallet loop and he raises the tentacle. You call out the bluff and continue runnig, but he keeps moving at 95% holding it and quickly comes back to 115% and catches you with a M1 anyway.
I never mentioned missed hits because that's more on the Nemesis player messing up than it the survivor countering it. Don't know why you bringing that up.
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He is the only killer in the game that punishes your overall needed strikes in a game by using your power....the only killer in the game who is actually punished for using his power. Setting himself up for a minimum of 32 health states instead of 24 like other killers. There's no excuse for it. BHVR is just bad at balancing the game and use rank 20 input to gauge how powerful something is....
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Use M1 and voila, no punishment.
and you are disregarding any positive effect the tentacle attack might have as well as zombies.
people are arguing that Legion, Pinhead and Trickster (probably others as well) are ‚punished‘ by using their power; so that’s not a great argument to make that he is the only one. Anyways, all powers have up and downsides and situations where it’s better to use M1. And I actually agree that those killers I mentioned as well as Nemesis could use some kind of buff, I never said they are perfectly implemented. I am not delusional. But it seems some people here indeed are.
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Pinhead isn't punished by using his power, he's punished by missing and misusing his power. Trickster has a sub machine gun that doesn't require many hits at all considering how many bullets you're firing per second. And Legions power removes a health state as soon as you start a chase.
None of those killers have 32 health states to contend with due to the T-virus they all have 24. Nemesis is the only character in the game with that many health states per game to contend with on top of 12 hooks.
And if you only M1 then theres no point to even having his power. At that point he's just a wraith with no stealth. If you want to use his power, you have to add on 8 health states to the total game, MINIMUM. No other killer does that regardless of how punishing the misuse of their power is. Nemesis gets punished from using his power correctly unlike the rest of the roster. And what makes it pour even more salt in the wound, he's not even on the level of Nurse, Spirit, and Blight. So he has no mobility, gives survivors free sprint bursts on top of old school mettle of man everytime he uses his whip....
"But muh zombies"
The AI is still trash, they still get stuck, and if you have to use them for tracking you could have just used anything else. And he still performs the weakest in red ranks even compared to trapper....who is the most basic M1 killer you could possibly play.
So do please inhale more dubious amounts of copium pretending he's strong so BHVR can pad their wallets by selling a dud....
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One of those hits is not like the others.
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Doctor is an M1 killer, his power adds nothing to the chase (but muh canceled pallets) you can do that without madness... or hitting people repeatedly.
On average though Doctor still downs people faster than nemesis. Even plague downs people faster than nemesis.....and trickster, and they both have to hit people multiple times mid chase and have far more range. When it comes to injuring survivors or downing them, nemesis is the worst on the roster hands down. You can't utilize expose from it, can't franklins from it, can't sloppy butcher with it, and there aren't even any add ons to reduce that 32 health state limit he has hanging over his head should you actually decide to use his power in a match...
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You are still ignoring the fact that you can hit pretty easily over pallets and vaults without much wind up (which Huntress has) you should not always go for tentacle hits, that’s why your numbers just don’t make sense.
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"It sucks to have to hit survivors 3 times but he has strengths in other areas."
None of those other areas are important when you're still the least lethal killer out. And its not just a hit, its a hit and a sprint burst, ITS ADDING ANOTHER CHASE TIMER TO YOUR ALREADY LONG CHASES! Bruh wh....do you guys even play killer?
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My numbers are based on your ability TO HIT OVER THOSE PALLETS THAT YOU KEEP BRAGGING ABOUT, WHICH IN ORDER TO DO YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR TENTACLE WHICH ADDS HEALTH STATES TO SURVIVORS ITS NOT EVEN MATH ITS LITERAL CAUSE AND EFFECT!
If you use your power FOR ANY REASON, AAAAAAAANY REASON! If its to hit people over pallets or break pallets or hit people through windows, etc YOU ARE GIVING THEM FREE HEALTH STATES AND A SPRINT BURST <---Nobody in the entire roster does that...NOBODY.
What you think is a win because you got a free hit with a tentacle is a false win, you didn't actually make them any less effective from the hit. In order to down AAAAAAAAANY survivor with your tentacle from ANY hit, they need to be infected....in order to get them infected, you need to hit them with your tentacle.....SO IN ORDER FOR THOSE NO SCOPE PALLET HITS TO WORK, YOU NEED TO ALREADY GIVE THEM A FREE HEALTH STATE FROM A TENTACLE HIT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Post edited by Mandy on0 -
So. It would be better to hit them not at all because that’s somehow taking away health states? Also breaking pallets is another effect of the tentacle that shortens the chase time etc.
sorry but at least try to be reasonable instead of crying and screaming. I already said he could use some buffs and he is not perfect. But he is not THAT bad especially compared to other lower tier killers.
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Yeah the issue is that 4 good/great players are going to W so hard that the gens will be done and they'll use vaccines by the time you really chew through pallets and get tier 3 value. Gone against multiple Nemesis players since SBMM came out and only one got a kill.
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Hitting them at the pallet doesn't shorten the chase time, they had to be infected for you to down them in the first place what part of that do you not get? You had to already hit them with a tentacle, thats strike 1, you had to either M1 them or hit them with another tentacle to actually make them drop a health state after that, thats strike 2, you then have to either M1 them again, or tentacle them again to actually down them, THATS STRIKE 3. And you have to do that across 4 survivors each who get a chance to fully wipe the T-virus out with vaccines, adding a grand total of 8 HEALTH STATES 2 FREE STATES PER SURVIVOR. And on top of that you CANNOT hit a survivor with a tentacle and break a pallet at the same time.
And you are right, that doesn't make him THAT bad compared to other lower tier killers.....right....it makes him the worst.... /slowclap
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All of this sounds like you just read about his power but never actually played as or against Nemesis. He isn’t the worst killer. He is certainly not the strongest either, sure. But you are only focusing on the downsides while ignoring anything that he has going for him.
and you don’t have to repeat yourself. I understand the concept. I have played him often. I got his adept. I also went against super strong and coordinated survs and won. I also failed often in that scenario. You don’t have to act like i don’t understand what the contamination even does.
the AI of the Zombies need improvement and are pretty RNG dependent, but they are still there and help you with cutting off ways, information on survivor location, occasionally defending gens or even hooks.
Hitting with the tentacle is in many cases pretty easy, and that’s coming from me playing on controller. Hitting over vaults and pallets or getting rid of a pallet quickly is something he can do, and that better than Huntress or Pyramid Head. Sure if you hit a surv over a pallet that pallet is still there. But you are either forcing the surv to abandon the loop or they can’t use that sprint.
Vaccines can also help a little bit, they give location away and survs running to and searching the chests and using the vaccines are not sitting on gens.
Contamination also counters Iron Will, which many often ignore or disregard. But it is a Meta perk after all.
if you ignore all this and use only the tentacle in situations where M1 would have been better then sure you kind of have a killer that has to hit survs 3 times. But that just means you are not using him to the full potential.
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:41 this is how his power is supposed to work. Whats the problem? Nemesis is designed to beat singular windows with no other loop option. Huntress gets this also.
2:54, there's nothing for Felix to react to. Thats a guarantee hit on both nemesis and huntress
6:48 Leon with horrible pathing, uses his speed boost into a medium vault ignoring a pallet to his left he could have predropped. Survivor mistake. Every 115 killer gets a hit here. This isn't unique to any of them
7:08 Other leon fakes window and runs AWAY from shack then BACK to shack. Absolutely abysmal pathing. Huntress gets a hit in this situation as well. Every killer in the game gets a hit here.
Nemesis 100% has 50/50s at pallets depending on distance. If you think he doesn't then you're not looping him correctly or he's closer than you think he is. Also missed hits are OBSCENELY easy to bait out from Nemy. His tentacle has terrible hitboxes, and doesn't track in anyway.
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It's so absurd. The tentacle gives a speed boost without damaging. Yet it's hard to hit because of the bizarre and short hitbox, t virus infection does almost nothing, and can be easily cured for the trouble of infecting multiple people. He's such a disappointment.
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